av8torntn
Well-Known Member
But almost all of the ones that count seem to.
Israeli Invasion
- Thread starter Overpaid Union Thug
- Start date
But almost all of the ones that count seem to.
If it's an above ground harden target. The Israelis could try a two staged missile attack. Similar to how the afghans defeated soviet armor equipped with reactive armor. A two staged RPG attack. Two shooters, two RPG fired seconds apart. one missile would blow a hole in in the reactive armor the second missile would follow seconds after the first shot, enter the hole and become the kill shot for those soliders in the armored vehicle.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
If it's an above ground harden target. The Israelis could try a two staged missile attack. Similar to how the afghans defeated soviet armor equipped with reactive armor. A two staged RPG attack. Two shooters, two RPG fired seconds apart. one missile would blow a hole in in the reactive armor the second missile would follow seconds after the first shot, enter the hole and become the kill shot for those soliders in the armored vehicle.
Supposedly they are built under mountains which is why this may be a better start.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-118.htm
But I am guessing most people probably understand this is not good enough either. Our nuclear bunker buster bombs would not penetrate these targets. This leads to the real problem. Why is it acceptable for the NY Times to expose our covert operations to dismantle the Iranian nuclear program?
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
If it's an above ground harden target. The Israelis could try a two staged missile attack. Similar to how the afghans defeated soviet armor equipped with reactive armor. A two staged RPG attack. Two shooters, two RPG fired seconds apart. one missile would blow a hole in in the reactive armor the second missile would follow seconds after the first shot, enter the hole and become the kill shot for those soliders in the armored vehicle.
You are comparing apples to bulldozers. A rocket-propelled grenade fired at an armored target from 100 or 200 meters away has nothing to do with attempting to destroy multiple underground facilities that are widely dispersed and over a thousand miles beyond the maximum range of your aircraft.
The problem with missiles is that, unless they are equipped with nuclear warheads, they aren't capable of carrying a large enough payload to destroy a hardened, underground target. And Israel's nuclear warheads are too large, heavy and crude to be fitted on to missiles, they are aircraft-dropped bombs that are comparable in size and overall sophistication to the primitive devices we used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Most reports I've read indicate that Israel has missile delivery systems in place for nuclear warheads. They tested a multi-stage ballistic missile last year that would give them nuclear strike capability as far away as Europe. There is also speculation that they have the capability to launch nuclear warheads from their submarine fleet using modified harpoon missiles.
I was'nt suggesting Israel use RPGs against an above ground facilities. I was suggesting a tandem strike with missiles at the target in an attempt to destroy it.
What makes you so confident Israel only has aircraft dropped large primitive nuclear bombs. Israel first presumed nuclear test was the Vela incident it's been 20+years since the incident. Israel has been sucessful in miniaturized devices. Such an example is Israel's nuclear landsmines that is not a reflection of primitive technology. Israel Jericho missiles can be armed with nuclear warheads. The Hiroshima, Nagasaki bombs are atom bombs powerful at the time, but primitive in today's worlds. Israel's has or able to develop a thermonuclear bomb "nuclear fission". Nuclear fission is 1000's times greater then an atom bomb.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the Seymour Hersh articles or James Risen or both?
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I was talking about this article. I think most people understand the primary reason to DX the Israel strike on Iran was because we were already doing something about it. We as a nation have a tendency to try non military solutions to problems first. It seems time after time the NY Times seems to think it is their responsibility to print articles on covert operations. In my opinion even if the average Joe can put two and two together and figure out that we have people listening to phone calls of terrorists, or tracking money of terrorist organizations, or have prisons in undisclosed locations, or happen to be trying to sabotage or slow Iran's nuclear ambitions there is no positive reason for this to be published. I feel like it possibly puts peoples lives in danger and also reduces the chances of success in our nations war on terrorism. There was also one public time the government asked the Times to not publish information about our fight and the Times did it anyhow. When the Times printed it anyhow if I remember correctly the result was several nations stopped helping us track the money.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/w...r=2&pagewanted=1&sq=Israel Iran&st= cse&scp=1
AV8, maybe you missed the part where ALL civilized nations try DIPLOMACY first. This is what democracy is all about.
You consistently ring the battle cry of the military for all situations. Its funny how people are convinced that violence is the way to solve all problems.
Has history not taught you any lessons?
You said we "have a tendency" to try non military solutions. Versus what?
An Air campaign that kills hundreds if not thousands of people? Shall we be the country responsible for spreading nuclear fallout all over the middle east with our precision bombing? The kind that has killed thousands of Iraqis civilians since the begining of the war?
Shall we blow up nuclear power plants and allow the radiation to escape into the atmosphere contaminating the world just to avoid diplomacy?
Only an idiot would believe we or Israel could bomb a nuclear facility and prevent fallout if in fact that plant was producing atomic weapons.
There would be no way to contain the escaping radiation.
The military does what its told, just like a little kid listening to its parents, it does NOT make policy or influence a goverment.
Time to change the tv off the military channel and get with reality AV8.
2 failed wars in 8 years. Afghanistan is a mess and has to be retaken, the taliban is 3 times larger and better funded than when we went in, heroin/poppy exportation is now 5 times larger than ever thanks to the american troops assigned to protect them on behalf of the karzid goverment.
Lets not kid anyone. 2 wars that failed both objectives. We are not safer today than 2001.
Just because there hasnt been an attack on us soil doesnt mean these 2 wars prevented them from happening. The mere increase in homeland security within our borders is responsible for that.
You keep on living the dream man, guns solve all problems, but you will only get a few thousand more kids killed.
Just today, the Saudi Arabian goverment has pledged 1 billion dollars to rebuild gaza. Other middle eastern countries will do the same and this time, they will arm the palentinians with better weapons and protections.
All Israel did was guarantee themselves 100 more years of attacks.
All that american provided arms to crush an unarmed people, vs. backyard bottle rockets that carry a payload of about 8 m-80's. 1000 pound bombs dropped on gaza schools seems a fair fight in your mind, right AV8?
I wonder if you know that of all the thousands of bottle rockets fired, or better put, lobbed into Israel, 97% of them land in empty fields of streets? In 12 months leading up to the Israeli invasion, only 3 people have actually been killed by these rockets. Now, in retaliation, over 1000 civilians have been killed in 3 weeks. Is this fair? And if so, how does it end the hatred for Israel?
Maybe if Israel did something to help these people, like help build infrastructure and create jobs, increase the standard of living since Israel took there land to begin with, maybe the hostile feelings would end?
We, will never bring peace to that region as long as we provide the means for Israel to demolish other countries. They will always be hated by their neighbors.
Of all the destruction they have caused, what did they accomplish? With 1 billion dollars in restoration aid, what cant the palestinian hamas buy?
Another military blunder.
Time will tell.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Why would I want a fair fight? What is wrong with you? This is possibly the most foolish thing I have read on here in weeks. Were did I ever advocate a fair fight? I know you will not take my word for it but when 120mm rockets land they are not bottle rockets. They are in fact very deadly. I have lost good friends to these things you equate to bottle rockets. You think that when diplomacy has not worked that you just need a different mouthpiece in place and it will. This is a very dangerous and weak approach. You will be doing nothing more than allowing the terrorists to regroup and rearm which of course we all know is what you want. This cease fire is a mistake and will be the reason for further attacks in the region. I made it bold just for you since you have a problem reading things that are not bold.
Oh and one more thing. The last thing Israel should do is to help the terrorist rebuild.
As a nation we have had two very successful wars in eight years. Israel should follow our model and use overwhelming force not try for your fair fight. If you turned of MSNBC you could probably figure that out for yourself.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the laugh. You are a very funny person. Yep the answer to homeland security is to make some old lady take her shoes off at the airport. More government is always your answer unless the government is military. See I can frame your response for you.
AV8, i see you follow the exagerations of faux news when it comes to rockets landing in Israel. 120mm rockets? These would be the chinese type of rockets that make up less than 1% of the total rockets fired.
The actual rockets being being fired my ignorant friend have a payload of .05kg.
The Qassam-1 rocket are the majority of rockets being fired into Israel NOT 122mm rockets or 120mm rockets as you claim.
The Qassam-2 rockets would be next but they are not as likely to be fired into Israel as inventory of these weapons were limited.
The chinese 122 mm rockets carried the largest payload, but they simply dont have enough of these to make a difference, and if they did, they would kill scores of Israelis at one time. Unfortunately for your argument, this is not the case.
All the exagerations in the world doesnt make it true AV8.
Each time Israel has carried out a military operation to YOUR liking, the violence has grown in the aftermath. When this is over and the rebuilding completed, hamas and the palestinians will rearm once again.
Look at the chart, since 2001, other countries are ready to supply the palestinians with larger rockets, and with the support of the Saudi Arabians, Egyptians, Syrians, Iranians, Iraqi and Jordanians, they will get these bigger rockets eventually.
For now, the hamas organization fires the Qassam-1 rockets out of backyards, trucks and fields. These have no aiming capability and are merely a point and shoot weapon. If they hit anything, it would be out of pure luck.
Now, on the other hand, there are calls for war crimes against the Israelis in gaza. The Israelis are using horrible weapons against civilians. White Phosperous and Tungsten weapons that are causing horrific injuries to unarmed civilians.
Just because you dont hear about it on faux news doesnt mean its not happening.
The world will seek to punish those in the Israeli military for war crimes.
Faux news continues to portray Israel as a big victim. They are equally responsible for the violence in the region.
This fight began many years ago and will continue to exist until Israel does something to help the very people it displaced.
Simply pushing them off their land thru military force doesnt make it right.
There are 2 sides to this conflict and the Israelis need to own up to their part of the problem.
This is how a coward speaks. Anyone who believes that superior military might used on unarmed civilians is a righteous move needs serious counseling.
When anyone supports the bombing of schools, hospitals, clinics, apartment buildings and ambulances driving down streets rushing to the aid of human beings, then that person is a complete idiot.
What has Israel accomplished? Are all the terrorists dead now?
They have merely followed the footsteps of the bush doctrine, one that has failed miserably.
Only time will tell how hamas regroups and retaliates against Israel.
There has to be a social and economic solution to the problem between Israel and its neighbors. Using military force on civilians will only promote future violence against Israel.
You claim 2 very successful wars in 8 years, ok, i get it, your convinced.
But maybe there are others with brain cells that function normally out there who will seek out the truth.
Why not watch a documentary called "no end in sight" and see how successful the wars have been.
I bet you wont, you cant allow yourself to get off message. Rush wouldnt like that.
2 very successful wars in 8 years. How did you come to that conclusion? Granted the violence is down, but the soliders are still getting shot at and some are still getting killed.
IMO a successful war is the permanent end of all hostilities within the theater of war.
IMO a successful war is the permanent end of all hostilities within the theater of war.
Youre not putting a time table on this, so using your criteria, the revolutionary, civil, WW2, Korea were not succesful in some circumstances not even 60 years later....
The time table excuse still doesnt fly. The point he was making is simple.
The point of the iraq war and the afghanistan war had objectives that HAVE STILL NOT BEEN MET.
In afghanistan, removing and eliminating the taliban was the objective...today, they are stronger than ever, now called the narco-taliban with the increase in poppy production.
Mission FAILED.
In Iraq, the objective was WMD and eliminating al-qaeda. As to WMD's, they never existed so it was easy to claim victory for this, as to al-qaeda, the 911 committee and the senate commitees proved they never existed in the first place in Iraq and as a bonus, had no ties to saddam hussien.
Mission FAILED.
In Iraq, we created a mess with bad planning and no leadership from the white house. Then, when it became a disaster, a new plan (the surge) had to be implemented to fix what we broke.
These are not successful wars. They are disasters that have cost the US taxpayers more in dollars than 911 caused in total.
Over 1 trillion spent in Iraq alone, more than was spent on another lost conflict (vietnam).
Anyone who calls these wars victories need to examine what victory is.
And if anyone wants to try and connect Iraq to 911 and say that by attacking them, our country has been safe is out of touch with reality.
Bush himself shows the failure of his wars in his goodbye speech the other night. Before the wars began, he used the name Osama Bin Laden in every other sentence, so did his administration.
They sold the war to america by saying that they were going to get OSAMA for 911. Everyone bought it. It was an easy sell. For months, they used his name over and over....
Yet, in his goodbye speech, he never made mention of OSAMA BIN LADEN 1 TIME!!
What happened? Funny how 6 years later, the name OSAMA BIN LADEN just disappeared from the war rhetoric.
I guess the world is safe from the #1 terrorist now that bush took on two countries with no ties to 911.
Get a clue people.
Not once did bush mention OSAMA BIN LADEN as a reason for either wars in his final speech.
This president was, is and will always be remembered as an idiot.
stevetheupsguy
sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
Hey TOS, in your opinion, what needs to be done? I'm just curious.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
T
This president was, is and will always be remembered as an idiot.
And you sir will not be remembered!
And you sir will not be remembered!
I may not be remembered, but your ignorance on world views will always remain in the focal point of those watching.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Same difference.I may not be remembered, but your ignorance on world views will always remain in the focal point of those watching.
PS You're amusing
