Israeli Invasion

Was the Israeli invasion the right thing to do?

  • Yes: Any other country would have responded the same way

    Votes: 22 78.6%
  • No: Should have exhausted all political options first

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece

Seems Israel now admitting White Phosphorous was used in Gaza.

Does the picture in the article look like white phosphorous to you? I am just curious. Being a former forward observer I have seen white phosphorous many times so I have my own opinion. BTW it makes a great screen and also it very effective against fuel and ammunition storage points. I find it hard to believe that someone would use WP against urban targets since there are more effective rounds.

Check out this picture for context.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/white_phosphorus41.jpg
 

drewed

Shankman
AV8, Ive never seen WP in real life but to me (I aknowledge i could be completelty wrong) your picture looks more like a grenade or solid ordance application the one on the article looks more like a round that burst in flight to increase the affected area. Thats neither here nor there Israel used some sort of incindinary product over populated areas.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Does the picture in the article look like white phosphorous to you?

WP or Willy Peter(as I'm old school) dates back to WW1 and has been traditionally a very good smoke agent for smoke screens. The picture with the article first posted IMO doesn't look like WP because the yellow color indicates a higher sulfur content. My guess or assumption since they had no actual photo of a Gaza WP explosion, the newsroom pulled the first photo to attach to the story.

The photo is irrelevant because no such photo evidence at this point is needed for proof. The story is founded on Israeli admission that they used WP in Gaza. To quote an Israeli gov't official from story itself:

“Yes, phosphorus was used but not in any illegal manner,” Yigal Palmor, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, told The Times.

Your point of the photo being factually incorrect is valid and most likely correct as well but it doesn't undercut the fact that WP was used. Now the debate will center on "in what manner" which will swirl the debate of legality or not. The Geneva Convention prohibits WP use on civilians and in civilian areas as does Art. 1 of Protocol 3 of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm and this is where the debate will now center. Was the purpose for smoke or was the smoke a decoy and the real idea was incendiary? I'm sure this will get hotly debated as this goes forward.

I wanna address something going forward that not only sez where I'm coming from in the age old conflict of Jew verses Muslim but it also gets to the heart of why I think our presence in the Middle East will be fruitless in the end no matter how great a job we do. Old Testament Jewish Law as well as Talmudic Law does not distinguish women and children ie civilians in warfare when jewish peoples oppose non-jewish peoples in war. Their law is clear that all will be slaughtered as "YHWH" commanded them to do. You do not have to look far at all to find such beliefs common even among christian ranks. Here's just one quick example:

Israel was required to obey God's commandments as a representative son. Israel was under the covenant. In order to declare the covenant authoritatively, a person must be under the terms of the covenant. To remind them that they were under these terms, Moses warned them of God's chastening. There had been negative sanctions imposed on national Israel for her disobedience. These sanctions testified to Israel's status as a son. Chastening was a negative sanction intended to restore the father-son relationship. It was not a sanction designed to beat down and destroy those brought under them. It was not the permanent negative historical sanction that God demanded that Israel impose on the inhabitants of Canaan.
Israel's status as a firstborn son reveals why God told Israel to destroy Canaan. The Canaanites were second-born sons of God: disinherited sons. They were occupying the inheritance of the firstborn son. But why did this give Israel the right to kill them? In the Mosaic law, there was only one case where a family member was authorized to take part in the execution of another family member: when the convicted member had tried to lure the sanctions-bringing member to worship a false God (Deut. 13:6-10).
Canaanites were a threat to Israel because they would eventually lure Israel into false worship. This was the reason God gave Israel for destroying the Canaanites. The presence of Canaanites in the land would be a constant source of temptation (Ex. 34:11-16). If allowed to remain in the Promised Land, the Canaanites would eventually become bonded to Israel through marriage (Ex. 34:16). As the second-born sons in the household, they would lead Israel into rebellion against the Father. God knew this, and so He announced that He had judged the Canaanites in advance and had found them guilty. Israel had to serve as God's executioner. The firstborn sons and the second-born sons could not occupy the same landed inheritance.

https://web.archive.org/web/2005042...ve.com/freebooks/docs/html/gnde/Chapter19.htm

Going further at the link, Ismaelites were firstborn but they've even rationalized an answer to offset that problem too.

This theme of the inheritance of the firstborn and second-born sons is found repeatedly in Genesis. Again and again, the firstborn son proved to be the disinherited son. It began with Adam's rebellion; the inheritance was transferred to God's chronologically second-born son, Jesus Christ.(2) The second-born Son became the firstborn judicially. This theme of the rebellion of the firstborn continued with Cain's slaying of Abel. Esau was also the firstborn, but God told Rebekah that the younger would rule the elder (Gen. 25:23). This repeated reversal of the legal pattern of inheritance was based on God's grace in re-inheriting the younger brother through adoption while condemning the disinherited older brother. The Canaanites as elder brothers had gained possession of the land, but as disinherited sons, their claim was invalid. Israel, by God's grace, had become the firstborn son with lawful title.

This is the rational for the Christian to now dis-inherit the Jew as the sons of YHWH and therefore jewish Kingdom is meaningless. And at the conclusion at the link, now in the fullness of time and as Israel takes possession of her promise from YHWH, she will obey YHWH and cleanse the land in order to obey.

The second-born gentile sons of Canaan had been disinherited by God in Abraham's day: "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full" (Gen. 15:16). This verbally imputed disinheritance -- what we might call definitive or judicial disinheritance -- was to be achieved progressively: "I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land" (Ex. 23:27-30). This disinheritance was to be finally achieved in history: "When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them" (Deut. 7:1-2).

Oddly enough muslim law which also springs from the same Abrahamic source contends the same thing when is comes to purifying the land of non-beleivers. In this part of the world you are literally dealing with the same religious laws and foundations on each side at the fundamental level but the difference is one believes Moses the great anchor of law and the other believes it to be Mohammad. I say let these 2 brothers fight it out now and be done with it and the winner inherits their father Abraham's promise in Gen. 15.

"Show no mercy unto them" sure seems to fit the bill but in all honesty the muslims show the same towards others outside their faith so I say it's a family tradition!
:happy-very:


Will the UN and other international bodies now challenge religious dogma as they move forward looking for solutions to peace? This could get real interesting IMO. I wonder sometimes if Marx wasn't right when he said religion is the opiate of the masses!
:wink2:

For the record I happen to know the author of the link above and while I could have posted vastly more provocative material say from a John Hagee or other christian Zionist voice, I choose Dr. North because he is moderate by far in belief in these areas (his post-millennial views don't necessiate the need of a new jewish state to fulfill prophetic needs of coming Kingdom) but yet he still displays a strong root problem even in moderation in trying to resolve a solution in the Middle East IMO although the point of the linked article was not for that purpose. I posted to show the attitude of people that compounds the whole problem in the first place as it relates to dogma and doctrine.

You can change all the conditions of the region you like but at the heart of the conflict are millenia old religious dogmas that most likely only death itself will ever break. Although I don't conclude in the same manner in areas of christian thought as Dr. North and his late father-n-law Dr. RJ Rushdoony, I know both men, read many of their works and respect them both very highly. It was Rushdoony himself who in the early 80's who first exposed me to Mises and libertarian ideas but then I walked further to the obvious end of the road and found Rothbard and anarchism. I believe North has to some degree done the same.

Our only choice is to get out of the middle of this fight completely, back neither side in any way, shape or form and when the death and destruction becomes severe enough on both sides, maybe then they can work it out as literal brothers should! There in lie the road to peace in the Middle East.

JMHO.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Bush himself shows the failure of his wars in his goodbye speech the other night. Before the wars began, he used the name Osama Bin Laden in every other sentence, so did his administration.

They sold the war to america by saying that they were going to get OSAMA for 911. Everyone bought it. It was an easy sell. For months, they used his name over and over....

Yet, in his goodbye speech, he never made mention of OSAMA BIN LADEN 1 TIME!!

What happened?

Good observation and good question!
:thumbup1:
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
My guess or assumption since they had no actual photo of a Gaza WP explosion, the newsroom pulled the first photo to attach to the story.

The photo is irrelevant because no such photo evidence at this point is needed for proof. The story is founded on Israeli admission that they used WP in Gaza. To quote an Israeli gov't official from story itself:



.

The reason that I asked you what you thought of the photo is because normally you pay attention to detail. The caption of the photo is

"The incident being investigated is believed to be the firing of white phosphorous shells at a UN school in Beit Lahiya on January 1."


If this is not WP or even worse if this is not the UN school to me that would make the photo misleading which in turn would cause me to question the rest of the article. I for one have seen events first hand that were reported entirely different by the media so I now question most things that are reported. I really had no point just that I wanted your opinion since you linked the article.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
AV8, Ive never seen WP in real life but to me (I aknowledge i could be completelty wrong) your picture looks more like a grenade or solid ordance application the one on the article looks more like a round that burst in flight to increase the affected area. Thats neither here nor there Israel used some sort of incindinary product over populated areas.

I cannot say take my word for it but that picture I linked to does not look like a grenade to me. I would let some on here who have served in the infantry give a more qualified opinion than mine but that is exactly what a ground burst of WP artillery round looks like. For an air burst there are thick white trails of smoke leading from the air to the ground where the phosphorous continues to burn which is one of the reasons this round makes for an excellent screening of movement.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The reason that I asked you what you thought of the photo is because normally you pay attention to detail. The caption of the photo is

"The incident being investigated is believed to be the firing of white phosphorous shells at a UN school in Beit Lahiya on January 1."


If this is not WP or even worse if this is not the UN school to me that would make the photo misleading which in turn would cause me to question the rest of the article. I for one have seen events first hand that were reported entirely different by the media so I now question most things that are reported. I really had no point just that I wanted your opinion since you linked the article.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057361.html

If a jewish source makes you feel better and no pictures either. I just felt the admission settled the fact that White Phosphorus was used in Gaza and now they can hammer out the who, what,when where and how.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
And then there's this

Israel used White Phosphorus against HAMAS targets in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in January 2009. This violated no international laws or conventions.
White Phosphorus (WP), known as Willy Pete, is used for signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. White Phosphorus can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against vehicles, petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas, and enemy observers. WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It is usually dispersed by explosive munitions. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst. White phosphorus was used most often during World War II in military formulations for smoke screens, marker shells, incendiaries, hand grenades, smoke markers, colored flares, and tracer bullets.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm

Maybe this explains the yellow color but yellow normally indicates sulfur so maybe it was white Sulfur instead of white phosphorus?
:happy-very:

I think it's the M15 grenade that is the military white phosphorus smoke grenade if I remember correct. Don't hold me to the nomenclature as it's been a long, long time!
 

drewed

Shankman
I cannot say take my word for it but that picture I linked to does not look like a grenade to me. I would let some on here who have served in the infantry give a more qualified opinion than mine but that is exactly what a ground burst of WP artillery round looks like. For an air burst there are thick white trails of smoke leading from the air to the ground where the phosphorous continues to burn which is one of the reasons this round makes for an excellent screening of movement.

Ok fair enough, I dont have any exp with it so ill take your word for it
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
There's a series of photographs that give a clearer picture of what happened. It's either a WP airburst or a very good imitation of the same.
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
There's a series of photographs that give a clearer picture of what happened. It's either a WP airburst or a very good imitation of the same.


Jones, its hard to argue against the truth, but I am sure AV8 and his comrades on the elite patriotic right will come up with an excuse for those photos.

Israel has used some violent weapons on a country that cannot defend itself.

Tanks, planes, logistics, technology and guidance weapons were not intended for use on civilian populations, however, with the support of the USA, Israel has done just that.

It has killed, mamed or wounded thousands of civilians.

Now they just pull back into Israel like cowards. They have accomplished nothing but destruction. They have only "seeded" further hate towards their country and the typical Israeli citizen will have to pay the price for this aggression by its over zealous goverment.

Time will tell how many Israelis will lose their lives to suicide bombers in the future who will seek retaliation for this military action.

Its a shame when any country kills innocent civilians to make a point of supremacy.

Billions of dollars in infrastructure damage, billions of dollars in community damage, and still, the ability to launch qassam-1 rockets exists.

Sounds like maybe Bush was running this military operation as well.:dead:
 

tieguy

Banned
ALL part of the games the plo plays. They lob missles across the border and bomb Israel for weeks. Israel retaliates and the palistinians try to act like innocent victims. I would not be surprised if the palistinians bombed their own school and blamed it on the Israelies. They have done worse before.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
There's a series of photographs that give a clearer picture of what happened. It's either a WP airburst or a very good imitation of the same.

Looks like an unmistakable smoke screen (from the height of the burst). They will probably say they were taking fire from that building and had to screen the movement of friendly troops. It would be hard for anyone to claim they were targeting people from that height unless the contact was coming from the rooftops. Of course there is always the possibility of a fuse malfunction. I would say it is odd as hot as phosphorous burns those guys are trying to put it out with buckets of water. I personally would have tried to vector in fixed wing aviation but looks like nothing illegal in that picture just a waste of ordinance.

Oh missile boy I was wondering how long it would take you to try and somehow blame this on President Bush.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Phosphorous ignites on contact with the atmosphere, one effective way of putting it out is submersing it in water. It's sometimes stored that way in fact (submerged in water) to keep it from burning. But I'm guessing the guys with the buckets didn't have any better options at the time anyway.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Phosphorous ignites on contact with the atmosphere, one effective way of putting it out is submersing it in water. It's sometimes stored that way in fact (submerged in water) to keep it from burning. But I'm guessing the guys with the buckets didn't have any better options at the time anyway.

They could have let it just burn out since we are to believe the school was under attack by the IDF and they were coming through just randomly killing noncombatants. If all that I had was a bucket of water faced with an advancing Army armed with tanks and howitzers I could think of lots of better options than pouring water on little pieces of WP. But then again maybe that is why they got spanked. Again thanks for posting those pictures. Those should be great news for the FDO that approved the use of WP.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
ALL part of the games the plo plays. They lob missles across the border and bomb Israel for weeks. Israel retaliates and the palistinians try to act like innocent victims. I would not be surprised if the palistinians bombed their own school and blamed it on the Israelies. They have done worse before.

Tie,

I understand how easy it is to just lump all things to the PLO but in this current situation in Gaza, this is not the case at all. The PLO and Hamas who control Gaza are very much at odds with one another. Mahmoud Abbas is a member of the Fatah party which is a left/nationalist political party and has headed the PLO since Nov. 2004'. Hamas, a rival political faction to Fatah refuses to recognize Fatah or the Abbas leadership of the PLO and therefore they choose to in effect, do their own thing in Gaza. And paying a price for it too.

Not suggesting PLO as some innocent party in all this but the muslim world is very much a very fractured society. Both in politics and religion. The situation between Hamas and the Fatah might be best or loosely understood in a way we think of democrats and republicans oppsing one another but in this case the difference has gone to obvious extremes.

As I said, it's easy to lump all things as PLO and I've done the same but reading has forced me to realize this situation is far more complex than I realized earlier. In fact, I'm convinced that if you removed the Israelis and the west entirely from this region, the whole arab whole would fall out into multi-faction civil wars and Arabs would degenerate into just killing themselves off. Even the Ottoman's understood this and used a heavy hand to rule them in their era. Western policy makers also very much fear this and use this as justification to intervene in various ways in this region. Their current mpdel of public policy with economics and society structure depend in some measure on stablity in this region but I say let them just have it since this is really what they want. At some point if we choose, if we want wants there, scrap away the remains of the dead bodies and it's all ours so to speak!
:happy-very:

This is also why I do not fear some super fundamentalist caliph bent on world domination because Sunni Islam dictates a Caliph be chosen by Shure (a consultation) from elected leaders among the muslims themselves. Shia Islam however declares a Caliph to come from a imam descended in a line from Ahl al-Bayt so they already hold a huge disagreement on how a Caliph would be chosen in the first place.

I just consider it a pure red herring to even suggest the possibility that from amongst all this turmoil and difference that these guys really pose anything near a threat on global scale toward global conquest and domination especially in the houses of the west.

jmo
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Phosphorous ignites on contact with the atmosphere, one effective way of putting it out is submersing it in water. It's sometimes stored that way in fact (submerged in water) to keep it from burning. But I'm guessing the guys with the buckets didn't have any better options at the time anyway.

I'm really not sure what you are saying now. I really have no opinion on this since it looks like it is not even remotely possible from those pictures for a crime to have been committed. Are you saying that they were putting out the fires by pouring water on it? Are you saying they were putting out the fires by pouring water on it because it was HC and not WP? Also if memory serves correctly and it has been quite some time if the proper hob is 100 meters for a WP smoke screen does that really look like 100 meters using the building as a reference point? Of course according to WKMac's article it was a reserve unit so they could be ate up. Is the HOB for HC 25 or 50 meters? We got to do those so rarely I can't remember. Anyhow since I think everyone could agree that is an airburst and the airburst is only for screening I'm not really sure what you guys have a problem with now. Also I don't really think it is against our rules of war to use WP for screening as you and missile boy have implied.


I wonder is it a war crime to launch rockets at cities or is it just a war crime in your mind to use WP as a screen?
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
I'm really not sure what you are saying now. I really have no opinion on this since it looks like it is not even remotely possible from those pictures for a crime to have been committed. Are you saying that they were putting out the fires by pouring water on it? Are you saying they were putting out the fires by pouring water on it because it was HC and not WP? Also if memory serves correctly and it has been quite some time if the proper hob is 100 meters for a WP smoke screen does that really look like 100 meters using the building as a reference point? Of course according to WKMac's article it was a reserve unit so they could be ate up. Is the HOB for HC 25 or 50 meters? We got to do those so rarely I can't remember. Anyhow since I think everyone could agree that is an airburst and the airburst is only for screening I'm not really sure what you guys have a problem with now. Also I don't really think it is against our rules of war to use WP for screening as you and missile boy have implied.


I wonder is it a war crime to launch rockets at cities or is it just a war crime in your mind to use WP as a screen?

I'm saying that:

A. Yes, those pictures appear to be of a WP airburst over the building in question.
B. Water is an effective way to extinguish WP.
C. Buckets of water is likely all those guys had on hand anyway, effective or not, so that's what they used.
 
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