Its simple

Benben

Working on a new degree, Masters in BS Detecting!
Not sure where you're getting that I'm mad at you or that the ACA was "designed to protect you and me", but whatevs.
I see I'm gonna have to spend some time educating you a bit on insurance, insurance companies, and why hospital costs are so high in the first place. Let's start with what insurance in the market is and is not.

Insurance is when a group of people pool resources together (i.e. money) to cover expenses for catastrophic events. The fact that most people are so greedy that they can't trust one another to do this is not the fault of anyone but themselves. What insurance is not is a middleman that everyone must have in order pay their medical bills. Having been poor all my life myself, my family and our friends, who were also poor, created our own insurance pools to help each other and ourselves. On more than one occasion, people in the pool tried to run away with the money.

It took this lesson for us to realize the importance of insurance companies because they are legal entities that can't run away with your money. But they don't cover everything, which makes sense. We learned this lesson also when more than 3 people in our original pool had to go to the hospital. Insurance companies will only cover a limit range of problems because it is mathematically impossible to stay financially viable while paying out money for every sickness under the sun. They don't just slap a random rate and say pay it because that's how much money we want. The rates are determined by what percentage of people get certain injuries on what jobs of which gender at what age etc., basically a cross indexed table of multiple variables that determine on average what percentage of people get what health problems aka the risk pool. Then that's factored in with how much it costs to be treated for what problems via how much hospitals charge on average for services by state, then you include fees/costs associated with running a company, see how big the pool is, look at what a specific customer wants in their plan and the fees/costs associated with it, and voila you have your rate. That is a far, far better way of calculating how to pay out the money because in my original pool there were multiple people who were injured more frequently for whatever reason (usually doing stupid crap like getting drunk) and ended up using over 500% of the money they put in, and it was very unfair that the rest of us who didn't get injured by living boring lives and staying safe to use less than 5% of the money we had put in. Our options were to grow the pool and introduce more risk of people trying to run with the money, or make an LLC insurance company, or just give back the money to buy an existing insurance plan from an existing company. We tried to make an LLC but gave up pretty quick on discovering the associated legal fees and documents. But we couldn't afford it because the rates were so high. Why were they so high? Because hospitals charge huge sums of money for services.

Why are hospitals so expensive? Basically 4 factors: doctors and staff, drugs, frivolous lawsuits, and, as you said, the ER. There're a lot more factors but I listed those because they were immediately identifiable. I won't get into the first 2 because that would take too long. Suffice to say there's a shortage of doctors for some obvious reasons (education) and some not so obvious reasons (American Medical Association) and big pharma and frivolous lawsuits are entire threads of their own. Here's the lowdown on the ER bankrupting hospitals. That only happens in densely populated areas. And the ACA isn't going to fix having to pay $50 for an Advil in the hospital. All it'll do is have the tax payer pay for it instead of you yourself. Here's the kicker: you're the tax payer. And if you're okay with hospitals charging $50 for Advil then not sure why you're complaining. On the other hand, if you really wanted this problem addressed then let's address it instead of believing this bullock that the ACA somehow fixed this god awful situation. Also, to reduce the hospital costs you would have to fix at least the other 3 problems I listed, so the short and long of it is the ACA isn't helping with hospital costs and instead of paying the bill directly, you are now paying it through taxes minus whatever the bureaucracy is taking for themselves.

Everyone wanted health care reform, and one way of doing that was to have reform that would incentive more people to become doctors. That way hospitals could lower costs and be more localized at the same time. And obviously you haven't read the legislation because it won't be affordable within the next 10 years with the projected costs. Here's how you lower personal health costs: live healthy i.e. eat right, exercise, sleep well, have a healthy mind and healthy heart. If more people did that, less people go to the hospital and ER costs would go down. There's a lot more I could say about this but I get the feeling it wouldn't do any good and I'd probably get more nods in agreement than seriously change anyone's mind. I would simply encourage you to stop following talking points, think for yourself, and actually do your own research. And no, reading news articles and press releases is not research. You're talking about the intersection of health and economics and I seriously doubt you have a grasp of the ladder.

sources: I used to sell health and life insurance

Getting tired of the ignorance and out-right lies. Insurance is NOT when "people pool resources." Look up the insurance laws in ANY state. You may have been the snake-oil sales man but my friend I was a Dr. in a group practice, a partnership AND in solo practice with over 10 years experience. My wife is a PT with over 20 years of experience working in more than 1 hospital.
Don't try to BS me, I know FIRST HAND!

Your BS about the 4 factors?.....HORSE DUNG! Staff hours are billed out at according to RVU's which are ALWAYS over twice whats actually paid to the employee. OVER 3/4 of the Dr.s you see in the hospital bill out of their own office. Those fees are NOT seen in a hospital bill! They have admitting privi's, they are NOT employees of the hospital! Lawsuits are NOT a major cost! Preventing them is probably a nasty little cost in the staff time spent in training and education. But lawsuits costs are more a topic of tort reform. leaving drug costs last of your "4." The hospitals billing $50 for an Advil is real, and has to be done because so many were using the ER as their primary doctor because they had no insurance to go see a doctor. They wouldn't pay the bill when it came so the hospitals used that as a rational to jack ALL prices up to cover those who couldn't pay. If everyone had insurance then all bills would be at least mostly paid and $50 Advil's would be a thing of the past. Hmmmm, what was the entire purpose of the AFFORDABLE CARE ACT again Dumas? Now your "won't be affordable in the next 10 years because of the ACA," AS YOU CLAIM!! I said it before but you weren't listening so let me try again, stop getting all your info from FOX news, Rush the druggy and Americans of Prosperity!! And WTF is this crap about incentives for people to become doctors. You do know that for the past 2 decades (probably even longer) EVERY Medical, Osteopathic and Chiropractic school in the nation turns away more prospective students than they accept right? Good lord man what rock have you been living under?

Lastly, and this is my favorite part in your anti-ACA diatribe! What you described in your last paragraph is preventive care. The ACA MANDATES THAT INSURANCE PLANS PROVIDE PREVENTIVE CARE COVERAGE! This was a HUGE change for insurance plans. You can thank the ACA for this!
 

Benben

Working on a new degree, Masters in BS Detecting!
The vast majority of newly insured Americans aren't paying for it now anymore than they they were when they were called "free-riders" by those pushing for healthcare reform. We are. Its why employers & individuals are paying higher premiums for plans that aren't as good as they had before. "ObamaCare approved" simply means your plan has been artificially inflated to pay for someone else's subsidy.

Wow Smurf, your lies are getting even BIGGER. The vast majority? Lemme guess, you heard that on some radio talk show so it has to be correct right? I mean they'd never lie to you right? They would never just make-up statistics to try and "prove" what they want you to believe right? God gave you a brain, @#$%ing use it!! Now STOP GETTING ALL YOUR INFORMATION FROM FOX NEWS, RUSH THE DRUGGY AND AMERICAN'S FOR KOCH, opps I mean, PROSPERITY!!

Last year was the first time in 8 years that health care costs did NOT rise in the double digits!! THE FIRST TIME! And I am telling you to your face the plans, dollar for dollar, are better than what was available than before! So I have something you can "artificially inflate!"
 

Atomic_Smurf

Well-Known Member
Wow Smurf, your lies are getting even BIGGER. The vast majority? Lemme guess, you heard that on some radio talk show so it has to be correct right? I mean they'd never lie to you right? They would never just make-up statistics to try and "prove" what they want you to believe right? God gave you a brain, @#$%ing use it!! Now STOP GETTING ALL YOUR INFORMATION FROM FOX NEWS, RUSH THE DRUGGY AND AMERICAN'S FOR KOCH, opps I mean, PROSPERITY!!

Last year was the first time in 8 years that health care costs did NOT rise in the double digits!! THE FIRST TIME! And I am telling you to your face the plans, dollar for dollar, are better than what was available than before! So I have something you can "artificially inflate!"


I had a felling if you decided to return it'd be to whine about FOX news & the Koch bros. Lol. And yes, the Dept of Health & Human services has reported that most of the new ObamaCare sign ups are medicaid enrollees. "Insuring the uninsured" (insuring the free riders) was one of the main premises of the new law. The only people whose health insurance is more affordable today are the ones getting it for free or those being subsidized by other working class Americans.

You are also trying to confuse healthcare costs with health insurance costs which may work on most low information Obama supporters but Health insurance premiums are what's being artificially inflated. Millions of Americans have seen their premiums skyrocket as a result of the Democrats legalized-price-gouging-&-healthcare-earnings-redistribution-bill as I like to call it, instead of the $2,500 dollar savings that was promised.
 

smapple

Well-Known Member
Getting tired of the ignorance and out-right lies. Insurance is NOT when "people pool resources." Look up the insurance laws in ANY state. You may have been the snake-oil sales man but my friend I was a Dr. in a group practice, a partnership AND in solo practice with over 10 years experience. My wife is a PT with over 20 years of experience working in more than 1 hospital.
Don't try to BS me, I know FIRST HAND!

Your BS about the 4 factors?.....HORSE DUNG! Staff hours are billed out at according to RVU's which are ALWAYS over twice whats actually paid to the employee. OVER 3/4 of the Dr.s you see in the hospital bill out of their own office. Those fees are NOT seen in a hospital bill! They have admitting privi's, they are NOT employees of the hospital! Lawsuits are NOT a major cost! Preventing them is probably a nasty little cost in the staff time spent in training and education. But lawsuits costs are more a topic of tort reform. leaving drug costs last of your "4." The hospitals billing $50 for an Advil is real, and has to be done because so many were using the ER as their primary doctor because they had no insurance to go see a doctor. They wouldn't pay the bill when it came so the hospitals used that as a rational to jack ALL prices up to cover those who couldn't pay. If everyone had insurance then all bills would be at least mostly paid and $50 Advil's would be a thing of the past. Hmmmm, what was the entire purpose of the AFFORDABLE CARE ACT again Dumas? Now your "won't be affordable in the next 10 years because of the ACA," AS YOU CLAIM!! I said it before but you weren't listening so let me try again, stop getting all your info from FOX news, Rush the druggy and Americans of Prosperity!! And WTF is this crap about incentives for people to become doctors. You do know that for the past 2 decades (probably even longer) EVERY Medical, Osteopathic and Chiropractic school in the nation turns away more prospective students than they accept right? Good lord man what rock have you been living under?

Lastly, and this is my favorite part in your anti-ACA diatribe! What you described in your last paragraph is preventive care. The ACA MANDATES THAT INSURANCE PLANS PROVIDE PREVENTIVE CARE COVERAGE! This was a HUGE change for insurance plans. You can thank the ACA for this!

So you're telling me that as a practicing (i'm assuming licensed) doctor with 10 years of experience and your wife working 20+ years you both were either working part time only and didn't get benefits or were working full time but still didn't get benefits, and you needed ACA to afford health insurance? If that's not the case then I'm not sure what you mean by "you and me". I listed the 4 because they were "immediately identifiable" and something could be done about them. Seeing that you didn't identify any other costs I just have to assume you had nothing to disagree about but disagreed anyway out of spite. Take 10 seconds to google "hospital financial statement". Pick any pdf that shows up. Or if you have a hospital you prefer, go to their website and check out the financial statement. You'll notice that the biggest expense is almost always "salaries" and, if the hospital bothered to list it, "benefits". When I said "drugs" I was talking about the pharmaceutical industry, but since I didn't specify that I can see how you would confuse what I meant with your gripe about $50 Advils. You still don't seem to understand why hospitals are so expensive and it will continue to be expensive when an entity, in this case the government, steps in and says it will foot the bills. Either that or you simply refuse to understand. Just so we're clear, you're denying that having less dense populations per hospital will help the ER problem? If you bothered to try to understand the idea behind more doctors and more hospitals maybe you'd have an actual retort instead of proving my point with your comment that prospective students are turned away.

It's pretty offensive that you assume I watch FOX and listen to Limbaugh since I do neither of the two. You really need to change up your talking points.

You obviously have problems with reading comprehension if you think my last paragraph was about "preventative care coverage", it was about taking care of your own health as much as possible instead of expecting hospitals to do it for you. Not sure how that point went over your head.
 
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