This post and others touch on a very tricky area and asks some good questions. I hope we can all agree that there is something very right about having convictions and being willing to stand by them, even when it involves personal sacrifice.
Especially when the subject matter may be against ones beliefs or choices and yet people still stand up for it because it legal or the right thing to do to defend someones rights.
If I was in the place of those clerks, I would approach the situation with the view that I was only processing paperwork, even though, just for the record at this point, I am vehemently opposed to laws that in any way create any kind of legal equivilancy between the traditional family of one man and one woman united in marriage.
Traditional according to what you believe.
Any way, before I am given a beating from some people, I would like to offer some questions as food for thought:
How would those clerks feel they should have responded, had, while they were still employed, been faced with a request to issue a marriage license to a couple where one party clearly appeared unfit for marriage (eg keeps calling her "bitch") right there in the office. What stand if any should the clerk take?
I would hope the clerk might pull the person aside and give them advice or if obviously abuse was going on contact authorities. Otherwise it is LEGAL for the couple to enter into a marriage and thats all the clerk needs to be concerned with. This statement applies to both straight and gay couples applying.
Since this is Brown Cafe, as UPSers, does anyone among us feel, as a matter of conscience, that we could not serve a particular customer or handle a particular package and so would seek accomodation from our center manager. Perhaps there is an abortion clinic on one's route. How about a tobacco shop and you lost your father at a young age from cancer linked to smoking and sincerely believe tobacco to be evil? Would it be wrong for a loader to refuse to handle a package that he knew contained Nazi propaganda (eg. there's a swastika printed on the box)?
I would happily deliver the package of Nazi manufactured cigarettes to the abortion clinic. Why? Because all three are legal and it is another pkg creating revenue for my company and ultimately me.
Now for the specifics:
Abortion- legal in my state. I have run a route that a clinic was on and as I went in I could not help but notice the women who felt that that clinic was the choice they had to make. I`m glad I was not in their shoes as I a male have no idea of what it must be like. My personal feelings? For some people it is the right choice. My beliefs? First and foremost to not get any of the women I have been with pregnant in the first place so that it would never come into play.
Cigarettes- legal and one of the greatest hypocrisy's man has known. We KNOW it causes health problems but it is not made illegal by people who LOVE the dollars it generates. My feelings? I don`t smoke and have raised my children not to,it`s the best I can do. My beliefs? Hey, it`s legal. I`ll be sorry to see you go but have at it.
Nazi symbols- legal as long as it is not used as a tool of hate. It`s freedom of speech. Maybe not the language you speak but it is what it is. The same as the confederate flag. P.s. the swastika was around long before the Nazis. My feelings? As I said its legal. My beliefs? Paint it on my neighbors house along with "I hate Jews" and I`ll beat your ass.
I know I can certainly respect different points of view in each of these hypothetical situations. I do think that it is a good practice to try and accomodate the consciences of others, though I realize that sometimes that cannot be done because it creates an excessive hardship.
I think we go over board in this country to accommodate the conscience of others. There are LAWS in this country. Live by them, vote to change them, or find another more accommodating country. You have the right by law to live by your conscience and beliefs as you see fit on your property. Step into public and abide by the laws.
Now I'll go out on a limb. I seek to challenge the thinking of some people here. I wish to take a stand against the momentum of thought in our day and say I believe that homosexuality is profoundly disordered and that we are undretaking a dangerous social experiment by viewing same sex couples the way we view heterosexual couples.
Or the way we view multi-race, multi-faith couples? Is two white homosexuals in a relationship worse than a black Muslim/white Jew? Some people feel the same way you do about them all equally. Which of those beliefs are right and which are wrong?
In my mind I separate homosexual desires from the person who has them. Some will say that is impossible and many supposed experts would share that view. I disagree and know that the experts have been wrong in the past. (In recent years some "experts" have thought there was no limit to the housing boom.)
That homosexuality is disordered, I believe should be obvious to everyone.
You mean GAY can be cured? HooRay! As long as the shot isn`t given in the butt. That would be gay. Seriously, please inform us of the gay gene or virus that has been found that we should see to be so obvious.
I see no need to complicate the question with either religous dogma or modern psychology. It is a truth our bodies themselves proclaim. Even the simple minded among us can understand what parts are naturally designed to be brought together. There are compelling health reasons not to commit homosexual acts. The urinary tract is sterile. The rectum is filled with bacteria. Those are body parts that should never come in contact with each other!
This would be hilarious if you didn`t believe it to be true. I hope the moderators leave this part in because I`m not trying to titillate. Here we go. How do you feel about oral sex? you didn`t mention it so I have to guess. You do know the human mouth is dirtier than an animals? Kind of puts a whole new spin on the "do you kiss your Mom with that mouth" line now doesn`t it? If bacteria is the criteria for responsible sex we`re all going to hell. And so, by your theory, if homosexuals only touched there urine producing parts together than all this problem would go away. Or, for those so inclined, touching of urine producing parts to bacteria producing parts makes them gay? I used to think I was confident in my sexuality but now I don`t know what I am. 
I have no trouble saying that I believe a person who has feelings of same sex attraction is best off living chastely in singleness.
So gays should essentially be confined to solitary confinement? That`s not a very Christian statement to wish such cruelty unto anyone. I think George Clooney is one handsome son of a gun. Should I pack my bags?
If someone is in a homosexual relationship and wants certain legal protections, he can have drafted powers of attorney for healthcare and property, and a will.
Many do. Thankfully now under LAW they may be afforded all the same as a loving non-gay couple.
I don't know how so many people have come to believe the lie that deeply held feelings are the ultimate criterion of truth or goodness.
Such as belief or non belief in the Bible?
While all analogies break down, but such flawed logic, we would have to affirm the destructive behavior of an anorexic because the person sincerely feels a desire to lose more weight and genuinely sees oneself as fat. Most people also realize that certain relationships between two people can be destructive. Consider an unhealthy codependency where two people cannot break free from one another because of unhealthy feelings and bonds.
They`re the same feeling heterosexuals in unhealthy relations ships have only for the same sex. Destructive relationships happen for all.
Anyway, I always get mixed feelings when I see people wear t-shirts that say things like "I love my gay friends." I'm glad they do and i don't feel I have hatred in my heart toward anyone, but I would never I identify a friend by his disorder. I don't think it would build anyone up to say "I love my obese friends" for example.
They are showing love, the most valuable of all emotions. If more people had the balls the say what they love it would be a better place. Funny how people are accepted openly for saying what they hate but looked at funny for what they love. Disorder?,see above. But on that subject my wife and kids have shirts proclaiming their love for our youngest son with Downs and those like him. Why? Because they aren`t ashamed to show their love as are the people who love their gay friends.
Speaking of obesity, its obviously a terrible health problem, and many school age children are seriously overweight. Getting bullied over ones weight (or countless other things for that matter) is also an unfortunate fact of life for many school children. Many schools have begun to better address the issue of bullying and for that I am thankful. In the case of weight, the challenge is to both stop the bullying as well as exhort heavy children to watch what they eat. No sane person would condemn the bullying of the fat kid and then use that as a springboard to celebrate obesity! I am very concerned how some people go way beyond condemning bullying of children who defy gender stereotypes, and seek to encourage children to view positively, a life style which I believe is destructive.
How hypocritical. Why can`t you change "fat" to "gay"? Bullying,or any kind of hate, is a product of upbringing plain and simple. Hate the fatty,gay,Muslim,black,tall,short ,rich,poor, it`s because the upbring you experienced from a infant on taught it to you. Want proof? Take toddlers from every possible combination and place them in a room. Some will fight,some will show affection but NONE will be because of what the other child is. God makes children perfect. Man friend`s them up.
While I don't want my life micromanged by others, I am troubled by what I see as a radical individualism. Its a troubling trend I see amongst both certain Christians as well as many conservatives. Society enables us to be part of something bigger than ourselves and I, for one, am glad to be party to the social contract. Poet John Donne was right, "No man is an island..." and we ARE our brothers keeper...
What one does legally is their business. You`re just worried it won`t be the same as you and therefore see it as a threat.
A man and a woman united in marriage and the children they are raising has for ages been understood as the basic family unit and the building block of society. It is entirely appropriate for our government to recognize and affirm in a special way this institution that even predates our government. Different arrangements such as two men simply do not and cannot form that unit. For that simple reason I don't believe they can marry, form a civil union, or whatever else we want to decieve ourselves into calling it. Yes, this is unfair to people who do not find the opposite gender romantically atrractive, but I am not convinced that the goal of good and wholesome societies should be to erradicate all unfairness. (Eg. Because Tom is naturally smarter than Joe, he got a higher paying job. That's not fair to Joe. Etc.)
Women should not vote,or blacks for that matter. Oh ,wait,that would be unfair. The only thing preventing gays from being a building block in your eyes are the fact that they are attracted to people with the same sexual organs. What other differences could these two people have that would prohibit them from making the same contributions as heterosexuals?
The state of Illinois has recently passed civil unions legislation. As a result some adoption agencies who believe that the traditional family unit is the best environment in which to raise a child are now being forced to consider placing children in their guardianship with homosexual couples. I am outraged!
Do you live in IL? I do and think this is one of the few things they have gotten right lately. You can show us NOTHING anywhere that factually proves that two loving adults cannot raise a child strictly because of sexual preference. I`m sure what ever sexual act they want to do is done behind a closed bedroom door the same as a heterosexual couple hopefully does. The adoption agencies are flush with children from terrible situations that are in need of a loving home and upbringing and you want to deny them that strictly because two prospective people are gay!? That is an outrage! Are the homes some of these kids coming from horrible,cruel,painful places? How many of them are homosexual homes? Hmmm
Lawyers who specialize in dad's rights in cases of divorce cite how the absence of a father leads to problems for many children and their conclusions don't seem to be at all controversial. I simply do not understand how this knowledge flies right out the window when the question is whether two lesbians should adopt!
By father they mean "father unit". A father can be male,female, both, or a single parent. The lawyers are using that conclusion to try and get equal rights for fathers in divorce cases, something which is a whole other argument.
Children need a mom and a dad. Not two moms or two dads. Mothers do not father and fathers do not mother. Men and women, while equal in value, are different. Even modern slang betrays what we know somewhere deep within. It is not by chance that we say we talked to someone "man to man and challenged him to man up."
Boy you are so wrong on this one. Take your anti-gay feelings out of this and think. What makes you think one parent cannot teach values as equally well as the other? " Mothers do not father and fathers do not mother" My mom and dad worked opposite sides of the clock. Each had to assume both roles while the other was away. Love,discipline,tolerance for others,life skills, each taught those to me. "It is not by chance that we say we talked to someone "man to man and challenged him to man up." No, its not. It`s someone trying to affirm his sexuality that came up with those slangs. Besides, what do women get to say? Woman to woman or woman up? What does a single mom say to her son?
While we shouldn't get too legalistic or uptight because some people defy stereotypes and there are heterosexual male hair dressers who get their UPS packages delivered by a heterosexual female driver, its best when men and boys are encouraged in their masculinity and women and girls in their femininity. What a radical idea for our day!
Encouraged how? By a bigoted dad telling his kid not to go around the kid who can`t throw a football because "he`s gay"? What are those encouragements that pertain to manhood or womanhood? I can`t throw a football but mom taught me to do my own laundry when I was 12. Am I gay or not masculine? My daughter has been an athlete since she was 4. Her softball stats this year as far as HR,RBI,and BA are better than all the other girls and 3/4 of all the boys in the three surrounding school districts. Is she gay or not feminine? I have told my kids form the day they were born that I love them and give them a kiss each and every day,both my sons and daughter. None are afraid to do the same to me. I`ll take a pinch of femininity in my sons to round off the edges and a pinch of masculinity in my daughter to sharpen hers. And to stick to the subject, I`ll gladly take my kids living in a lifelong loving relationship full of tolerance even if they were gay long before I`ll take them in a judgmental,hypocritical, unloving heterosexual one.
