not looking good for express..

vantexan

Well-Known Member
That is absolutely no excuse for taking away the bargaining rights of unions.

They did it to themselves. Wisconsin and other states can no longer afford high pay and gold plated benefits but the unions weren't willing to budge. All that protesting in Madison? Set off by Walker asking state employees to contribute to their retirement. To hear the liberal media Walker was going to be bounced out in the recall vote. A large majority of Wisconsin voters, a state not known as a conservative bastion, saw it Walker's way. They knew Wisconsin was in trouble.
 

bottomups

Bad Moon Risen'
If you don't give incentives to attract business, how do you improve the economy? Sure wasn't working with high taxes and a bloated gov't.
The republicans are all about ending welfare and entitlements unless they pertain to businesses. If a company can't make it on its own then maybe they shouldn't exist in the first place. Why should WI taxpayers give incentives to business to start up here. If someone has a good business plan, than go to a bank to get the financing and succeed or fail on your own! The Walker administration had just in the last year gave a large incentive to a company in WI to expand and they just announced a large layoff and/or downsizing this week.
 

bottomups

Bad Moon Risen'
They did it to themselves. Wisconsin and other states can no longer afford high pay and gold plated benefits but the unions weren't willing to budge. All that protesting in Madison? Set off by Walker asking state employees to contribute to their retirement. To hear the liberal media Walker was going to be bounced out in the recall vote. A large majority of Wisconsin voters, a state not known as a conservative bastion, saw it Walker's way. They knew Wisconsin was in trouble.
You sure seem to know a lot about WI's politics and economy without living here! Thank God for FOX news to keep you informed.
Many public employee unions had given up wage increases to have the money set aside for pension and healthcare contributions instead. Then Walker comes in and makes them pay more for H & W without allowing them to make up for it with general wage increases.
Many of the unions had agreed to increase their contributions to the level Walker was seeking but that wasn't enough for him. He was out to break the unions and was caught on video stating the same to one of his largest contributors. It was never about the money saved, it was about breaking the unions and their political clout!
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
You sure seem to know a lot about WI's politics and economy without living here! Thank God for FOX news to keep you informed.
Many public employee unions had given up wage increases to have the money set aside for pension and healthcare contributions instead. Then Walker comes in and makes them pay more for H & W without allowing them to make up for it with general wage increases.
Many of the unions had agreed to increase their contributions to the level Walker was seeking but that wasn't enough for him. He was out to break the unions and was caught on video stating the same to one of his largest contributors. It was never about the money saved, it was about breaking the unions and their political clout!

Says the union guy. Bottom line, pun intended, the voters of Wisconsin sided with Walker by a large margin. Please don't tell me the unions and the press didn't get the unions' side of the story out before the recall vote. And when public sector unions have a stranglehold on a state's finances, seems likely someone will eventually pry the unions grip away.

If I had a business that I was looking to expand into Wisconsin, I would decide to look elsewhere because the tax burden is too great. You say why should they be given tax breaks? How are you going to attract business to set up shop and hire people if you don't? It's not the businessman's duty to pay high taxes so that state employees get paid well while his own company struggles.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Scott Walker won by a large margin because alot of people disagreed with the use of the recall for differences on policy rather than gross legal or ethical violations, not necessarily because they agreed with the policy. November will find Wisconsin going comfortably for Obama.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
If you don't give incentives to attract business, how do you improve the economy? Sure wasn't working with high taxes and a bloated gov't.

Really are taxes that much more higher then they've been over 35 years? Is gov't that much more bloated now than then? There has been plenty party mixes (house/senate/president) and really it's all been relatively close no matter the make-up of the 3 branches. You could make an argument the administration prior to the Bush tax cuts was the most successful for business. '94 to 2000 was the greatest success we've seen. That said, it's never about one man, the success of the USA. Sure they talk different games, but overall there aren't these massive swings in results. When Bush was in, where was the mass Exodus of Gov't size? I must have slept through that. When Bush was in, where was the mass fiscal savings? Must have missed that. Bush had the tax cut, which was ok, but it wasn't ultimately a game changer. Tons of jobs left the country, wages stale, etc etc etc. But yes we save a bit on taxes, if there was any measuring result it was rich became richer, you and the rest of us Joe's didn't gain all that much.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Really are taxes that much more higher then they've been over 35 years? Is gov't that much more bloated now than then? There has been plenty party mixes (house/senate/president) and really it's all been relatively close no matter the make-up of the 3 branches. You could make an argument the administration prior to the Bush tax cuts was the most successful for business. '94 to 2000 was the greatest success we've seen. That said, it's never about one man, the success of the USA. Sure they talk different games, but overall there aren't these massive swings in results. When Bush was in, where was the mass Exodus of Gov't size? I must have slept through that. When Bush was in, where was the mass fiscal savings? Must have missed that. Bush had the tax cut, which was ok, but it wasn't ultimately a game changer. Tons of jobs left the country, wages stale, etc etc etc. But yes we save a bit on taxes, if there was any measuring result it was rich became richer, you and the rest of us Joe's didn't gain all that much.

Taxes are at historic lows. When the Republicans bleat endlessly about being overly taxed, they conveniently "forget" to mention that their real tax rate is much lower due to write-offs, deductions, incentives, and loopholes. Mr. Romney is the perfect example. This "job creator" paid 14% for the one year he released of his tax returns. Most pundits believe the reason Romney won't release more returns is that they will show he paid little to possibly no taxes at all for those years, which would naturally not look good for him.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Taxes are at historic lows. When the Republicans bleat endlessly about being overly taxed, they conveniently "forget" to mention that their real tax rate is much lower due to write-offs, deductions, incentives, and loopholes. Mr. Romney is the perfect example. This "job creator" paid 14% for the one year he released of his tax returns. Most pundits believe the reason Romney won't release more returns is that they will show he paid little to possibly no taxes at all for those years, which would naturally not look good for him.

It's the totality of taxes, not just the Federal Income Tax. Also state and local, where applicable, income taxes. Sales taxes. Gasoline taxes. Property taxes. Inheritance taxes. Social Security and Medicare. Lodging tax. Airport tax. They're everywhere.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
It's the totality of taxes, not just the Federal Income Tax. Also state and local, where applicable, income taxes. Sales taxes. Gasoline taxes. Property taxes. Inheritance taxes. Social Security and Medicare. Lodging tax. Airport tax. They're everywhere.

And they are all relatively the same as they've been for 25+ years. I saw a menu from a burger joint in Arizona. At the end is states, plus a 9.25% Obama Tax. I didn't know Obama invented sales tax, and state sales tax at that. Fox News would have blushed. All the taxes you mentioned are there, no matter if it's all Democrats or Republicans and to note, pretty much everyone in the world is paying taxes for things you mention. It costs to govern. Cost to school, cost to medicate, cost to transport, cost to manage programs and many are still reasonably good programs.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
And they are all relatively the same as they've been for 25+ years. I saw a menu from a burger joint in Arizona. At the end is states, plus a 9.25% Obama Tax. I didn't know Obama invented sales tax, and state sales tax at that. Fox News would have blushed. All the taxes you mentioned are there, no matter if it's all Democrats or Republicans and to note, pretty much everyone in the world is paying taxes for things you mention. It costs to govern. Cost to school, cost to medicate, cost to transport, cost to manage programs and many are still reasonably good programs.

And yet some states jack income and property taxes way up. And they have increased over the last 25 years to pay for ever bigger government programs. Some states hold taxes down as much as possible. Guess which states are doing better economically?
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
And yet some states jack income and property taxes way up. And they have increased over the last 25 years to pay for ever bigger government programs. Some states hold taxes down as much as possible. Guess which states are doing better economically?

The states that have an Amazon distribution center.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
And yet some states jack income and property taxes way up. And they have increased over the last 25 years to pay for ever bigger government programs. Some states hold taxes down as much as possible. Guess which states are doing better economically?

Property tax isn't a federal tax nor a state tax, it is a county tax. And in states even like the tax crazy state of CA they have gone down because many counties tax you on the value of the house, and those have halved over the years. Thanks to big REPUBLICAN banks and the housing bubble! As for state income/sales taxes, they move somewhat glacially. They may move a 1/4 percent every 5-10 years at most. So again it's not tied back to Obama and it's not like it's been rampantly changing.

Texas should give CA back the 13 billion it's homeboy company Enron stole. But yes there are states doing better then others, but it's somewhat like out-sourcing but on a state level. Some American companies decided to move from higher tax state to lower tax state and it helps but my gut tells me the 10% they save (for example) will eventually be eaten up again and the owners will be back needing to make ends meet as they semi-mismanaged again on their end. Now they have Mexico or China and so the worlds turns.

I think the point I'm making here is things are still relativity the same as they've been for decades now. Some states don't have some taxes that others do, nothing new. The things taxed then are being taxed now and it's not like up 150%, it's up like a 1%. It didn't matter who was holding the power in Washington.

BUT I will say this if you are a person that listens to Fox News as your main source semi-daily. You can't help but come away thinking that Demo's tax a LOT LOT more the republican's. But I go by rubber on the road, I've been paying roughly the same taxes I've always had, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less. I have plenty of old relatives that gets all their news from Fox and well my bottom line to them is to consider to at least balance themselves out and hear the other side NOT from Fox's mouth but the other sides own mouth and to put some MSNBC in their diet, they are talking rights of workers and citizens need to be retained. Now what kills me about the old relatives is several were union, several benefited greatly by having employee rights, all are benefiting from Social Security and Medicare, gov't programs you are taxed on and many other things. What I get from them mostly is this: "Kids today", "Good hard work is good for young people" and my answer to them. "It's never kids these days, it's more like adults these days. How can you ever blame the kids? They live in the world you gave them not the other way around. Kids are going to college in record numbers, meaning they are listening and trying to better themselves. They want good jobs.". "As to your hard work comments, you old bags gave all the jobs to other countries and mostly a communist one which you told us while growing up was BAD very very BAD. You made us watch in the 3rd grade propaganda films about Communist Russia, how their children were smarter and went to school year round and we needed to better. To then grow up to find you gave a lot of our factory jobs to communist China. Factory jobs fuels many other local jobs". Kids these days? Adults these days!

We have a choice, be governed by elected officials somewhat constrained by the Bill of Rights known as the constitution. OR you have a choice of being governed by Corporations that are not elected and are not bound to the Bill of Rights if/when they have enough power overall. I have no problem stating both have their issues, but I'll stick with Gov't managing me, I think I'll be better off. The SLAVE gene wasn't banished, so it still exists in some men and well that is what they do, we are getting so lazy we are letting rights being stripped away. "Put your nose in your phone/tablet/pc and while you do, we in the real world will be changing laws in our favor." Someday you'll come off the grid and realize how much the world has changed while you were tuned out, in the house's favor.

And fwiw, I don't belittle you with fake grammar comments back to you... I guess that is what the other-side does, tries to muddy very clear waters. I don't honestly even care of losing an argument, if I'm losing one that means I'm learning something and I try to be as open and fair about these things. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS. IT IS ALL WE HAVE AND THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED! In our times it has never been clearer then this and this comes from an ex-republican poster, ex because I lost arguments in the past and changed my mind on the matter. I'm happy I am wired to except change. What I've learned during this latest round of Washington gridlock and how transparent the Republicans have been during this time, was a real eye opener to me. Didn't hurt the last president had a HS mentality at best representing us (embarrassing) and we were in a war in which most involved in starting or stopping it were benefiting monetarily beyond coincidence or the benefit of the doubt, it was down right wrong. So I change my stance. They are out for something that is not a benefit the majority of Americans. Why else would we want representation, if it's not to help us?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Property tax isn't a federal tax nor a state tax, it is a county tax. And in states even like the tax crazy state of CA they have gone down because many counties tax you on the value of the house, and those have halved over the years. Thanks to big REPUBLICAN banks and the housing bubble! As for state income/sales taxes, they move somewhat glacially. They may move a 1/4 percent every 5-10 years at most. So again it's not tied back to Obama and it's not like it's been rampantly changing.

Texas should give CA back the 13 billion it's homeboy company Enron stole. But yes there are states doing better then others, but it's somewhat like out-sourcing but on a state level. Some American companies decided to move from higher tax state to lower tax state and it helps but my gut tells me the 10% they save (for example) will eventually be eaten up again and the owners will be back needing to make ends meet as they semi-mismanaged again on their end. Now they have Mexico or China and so the worlds turns.

I think the point I'm making here is things are still relativity the same as they've been for decades now. Some states don't have some taxes that others do, nothing new. The things taxed then are being taxed now and it's not like up 150%, it's up like a 1%. It didn't matter who was holding the power in Washington.

BUT I will say this if you are a person that listens to Fox News as your main source semi-daily. You can't help but come away thinking that Demo's tax a LOT LOT more the republican's. But I go by rubber on the road, I've been paying roughly the same taxes I've always had, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less. I have plenty of old relatives that gets all their news from Fox and well my bottom line to them is to consider to at least balance themselves out and hear the other side NOT from Fox's mouth but the other sides own mouth and to put some MSNBC in their diet, they are talking rights of workers and citizens need to be retained. Now what kills me about the old relatives is several were union, several benefited greatly by having employee rights, all are benefiting from Social Security and Medicare, gov't programs you are taxed on and many other things. What I get from them mostly is this: "Kids today", "Good hard work is good for young people" and my answer to them. "It's never kids these days, it's more like adults these days. How can you ever blame the kids? They live in the world you gave them not the other way around. Kids are going to college in record numbers, meaning they are listening and trying to better themselves. They want good jobs.". "As to your hard work comments, you old bags gave all the jobs to other countries and mostly a communist one which you told us while growing up was BAD very very BAD. You made us watch in the 3rd grade propaganda films about Communist Russia, how their children were smarter and went to school year round and we needed to better. To then grow up to find you gave a lot of our factory jobs to communist China. Factory jobs fuels many other local jobs". Kids these days? Adults these days!

We have a choice, be governed by elected officials somewhat constrained by the Bill of Rights known as the constitution. OR you have a choice of being governed by Corporations that are not elected and are not bound to the Bill of Rights if/when they have enough power overall. I have no problem stating both have their issues, but I'll stick with Gov't managing me, I think I'll be better off. The SLAVE gene wasn't banished, so it still exists in some men and well that is what they do, we are getting so lazy we are letting rights being stripped away. "Put your nose in your phone/tablet/pc and while you do, we in the real world will be changing laws in our favor." Someday you'll come off the grid and realize how much the world has changed while you were tuned out, in the house's favor.

And fwiw, I don't belittle you with fake grammar comments back to you... I guess that is what the other-side does, tries to muddy very clear waters. I don't honestly even care of losing an argument, if I'm losing one that means I'm learning something and I try to be as open and fair about these things. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS. IT IS ALL WE HAVE AND THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED! In our times it has never been clearer then this and this comes from an ex-republican poster, ex because I lost arguments in the past and changed my mind on the matter. I'm happy I am wired to except change. What I've learned during this latest round of Washington gridlock and how transparent the Republicans have been during this time, was a real eye opener to me. Didn't hurt the last president had a HS mentality at best representing us (embarrassing) and we were in a war in which most involved in starting or stopping it were benefiting monetarily beyond coincidence or the benefit of the doubt, it was down right wrong. So I change my stance. They are out for something that is not a benefit the majority of Americans. Why else would we want representation, if it's not to help us?

And what you aren't seeing is that companies have left high tax states not only for lower tax states but also moved overseas. This left people without jobs who often then moved to lower tax states where there are jobs. This further reduces the higher tax states' revenue base. They are no longer there paying state income or county property taxes. Doesn't mean everyone left, just enough that it makes it difficult for high tax states and counties and cities to be able to pay the high pay and great benefits to their gov't employees. Meanwhile in states like Texas all those new people have generated need for housing, food, clothes, etc which also produces more tax income. Thus lower tax states ARE doing better, while cities in California are declaring bankruptcy and California itself is in serious trouble. Google things like highest property tax states and you'll see the difficulty people are in trying to make ends meet in certain parts of the country. I forget who said "taxes are the price we pay for good government" but you can't keep heaping it on people and not expect something to give at some point. We're at that point, and playing the blame game isn't going to help the people struggling to keep their homes or save for their future.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
And what you aren't seeing is that companies have left high tax states not only for lower tax states but also moved overseas. This left people without jobs who often then moved to lower tax states where there are jobs. This further reduces the higher tax states' revenue base. They are no longer there paying state income or county property taxes. Doesn't mean everyone left, just enough that it makes it difficult for high tax states and counties and cities to be able to pay the high pay and great benefits to their gov't employees. Meanwhile in states like Texas all those new people have generated need for housing, food, clothes, etc which also produces more tax income. Thus lower tax states ARE doing better, while cities in California are declaring bankruptcy and California itself is in serious trouble. Google things like highest property tax states and you'll see the difficulty people are in trying to make ends meet in certain parts of the country. I forget who said "taxes are the price we pay for good government" but you can't keep heaping it on people and not expect something to give at some point. We're at that point, and playing the blame game isn't going to help the people struggling to keep their homes or save for their future.

If your company left CA to TX because of Taxes, it's only a matter of time before they move to some place even cheaper. This is how it all started in the 80's. Major companies went North to South to save, then South to Canada to Save, then CA to Mexico, then Mexico to China. The point is they started losing money at each point. It's about controlling what you have already. Eventually those in China won't have a place cheaper to go. End game.

Using CA and TX are great examples because they are the biggest examples on each end. Each have had their moments or glory and times not so well. It's no surprise TX is doing better then CA now, the rules are slanted to corps and not the general populace. That is imo the core issue. Sure people like to make fun of CA and it's rules, but they are giving out protections to people, they are setting higher standards because really we should always be striving for higher standards. But when we want to stop that, we start to look for cheaper low standard work arounds and they see states like TX. It's all about a balance and we are out of balance and don't want it to go further out. Cheap and Free are only short term answers with even bigger problems when there is no place to go.
 
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