Scoundrels in management?

tieguy

Banned
There is a place for it, but why do they have to micro-mange the crap out of everything?

Thats the basics of management.

a) have problem

b) develop solution

c) put in controls to ensure its no longer a problem or the problem is minimized.

In application this simple philosophy can be easily overdone and has been in many cases.
 

Hangingon

Well-Known Member
I like it when the most important issue we need to address changes weekly, without ever solving the original problem. If you are the goat this week, just wait until the focus changes with the next telecon and they'll move on to someone else.
 

crazygill

Active Member
what we need is more ex management to come forth and be truthfull and tell us what realy goes on for onces so we can call them on it as they so much love to do to us, but then nothing will ever change. My hat is off for the person above thanks for being truthfull.
 

Channahon

Well-Known Member
Prior to working at UPS, I worked for another large organization for 11 years. Management is management where ever you work. The need for management is for someone to make decisons and manage employees.
It's not a perfect world anywhere in the work force. If you didn't work for UPS, you may feel the same way if you worked somewhere else.

UPS has the best training for their management and hourly employees. It's up to the employee to use the training in their everyday responsbilities.
How would you manage a business if you were the owner? Keeping in mind, customer, profitability, wages and benefits, captial expenditures, safety, labor issues, etc. The job of UPS management is to ensure everyone plays by the rules, including themselves.

And before you reply regarding some management issues, more often than not, next level of management is aware of the issues with a supervisor or manager. And it is that manager's job to deal with the person on their strengths or weaknesses.

Through out my career, I have seen UPS management people leave UPS for various reasons. In some cases, integrity was involved, in some cases, the management employees were not doing their job effectively.

This organization holds high standards for all UPS employees. I am extremely gratetful for the skills I acquired while working at UPS. When having business dealings outside of UPS, I can speak with confidence and professionalism.
And I started as a driver with a high school education in a man's world. Now there was a challenge and the mission was accomplished.
 

psstdrvr

Well-Known Member
the purposeful fudging of numbers and falsfying records seems to be more rampant than normal here in ELI. Has some new directive come down from corporate? I have seen many packages customers waiting for showing up days later as closed 1x and B/A when they were never on truck. We have NDA's being found in garbage cans in the building after dispatch later in the day. I guess anyway to make the numbers is fair game. I have personally heard sups telling new drivers how to sheet NDA's so the are not late.
 

canon

Well-Known Member
How would you manage a business if you were the owner? Keeping in mind, customer, profitability, wages and benefits, captial expenditures, safety, labor issues, etc. The job of UPS management is to ensure everyone plays by the rules, including themselves.
If one of the rules is that everyone plays by the rules, then the rules must be obtainable without having to break them.

Example: It's been discussed before, but fits nicely here. If I had worked my way up the chain to the point where I could actually be one of the policy makers, I would know the cost UPS pays to maintain the "numbers". Let's say delivery volume is down, as is pickup volume, several stops in board but not on truck, and miles aren't quite up to norm. The driver calls the center and lets the supe know he might under dispatch. The supe calls other drivers near this one, and nobody can give up work without themselves possibly not dispatching. So far, this type of situation is beyond the control of the supe and completely unforeseeable.

Now, this is how it usually plays out in my building. Supe instructs driver to stop at several drop boxes to do "sweeps" and make sure they're coded a certain way. This is WAY before the posted pickup time on the box, so the regular air driver is going to have to hit the box again at normal time. Or "sweep" a UPS store that is well off area to gain miles and volume... again regular driver still has to come later.

Even more frustrating, is the instruction to go to a completely different part of town and take less than 10 stops off a driver that doesn't need help to stay under 9.5 but can afford to lose them without under dispatching. 30 minutes and 20 miles is tacked on to make 10 minutes worth of deliveries in a dense neighborhood.

So to answer your question (me being the manager of my own company):
I would encourage allowing the occasional under dispatch situation to happen for the sake of saving UPS all the extra OT and mileage wasted to ensure the "numbers" are met. Bring the guy in, get him off the clock and stop using fuel. These occurances would be monitored to identify areas that are consistantly falling short so they can be studied and adjusted. In doing so, UPS actually takes a step forward in becoming efficient in places other than on paper. As it stands now, as long as the problems are "fixed" with busy work and nobody is in trouble... nothing gets fixed.

Relaxing the discipline mgmt faces for such issues would open up a whole world of areas that would turn into money saving possibilities. Discipline only forces the problems to be masked, and on paper everything appears to be running as efficiently as possible.

Over 9.5 is another. I spend an hour and a half driving to and from work now, so I look for as few hours as possible these days. In the past however, I'm one of the people who didn't used to mind the additional OT now and then. But "company policy" prevented mgmt from allowing it to exceed the 9.5 rule. I'm not an advocate for cutting routes unnecessarily, but if it were my company I'd look for ways to reduce the number of drivers on the road in a particular day... and one way would be to allow the drivers who love the OT the opportunity to earn some. Even if it meant a week to week sign up sheet for those people who wanted it.

I'm not trying to take away any of the skills you left with channahon, but it really seems the skillset endorsed by corporate doesn't include providing production mgmt the decision making options that could actually help ups become more efficient. So the threat of discipline perpetuates the need for dishonesty and "fudging" numbers, at least in the majority of those centers represented in this thread.

Would be interesting to hear from center managers and driver supes how they deal with playing by the rules, and how the numbers could improve if the whip was replaced by trust from the upper echelons.
 

BoogaBooga

Well-Known Member
I have talked to former managers and on road supervisors from UPS. Most had been forced to resign, over "integrity" issues. What I saw was called fudging the numbers. UPS is a tough place to work. I was always amazed by the ex-management by a couple of things. They haven't found other jobs that paralled their mangament position and pay. Except for a biting comment about a person or two, they really have nothing to say about the company-good or bad.
 

canon

Well-Known Member
A flaw in someone's moral character can occur in hourly & mgmt. people. THAT'S the cause of dishonesty........
I can't wait for all the morally flawed managers who engage in number fudging to address this one. I'm betting they won't, but they should.
 

cheryl

I started this.
Staff member
...soooo, how can you guys seriously say that everyone that's in management is a scoundrel??? It seems odd to me how comfortable you are stereotyping an entire category of your coworkers with such extreme black and white thinking... You may as well be stereotyping people by race or gender.

If this really represents your thinking then I wouldn't be surprised if your next thread is "Should {{insert your favorite racial stereotype here}} be drivers?...
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
I don't for a minute think that everyone in management is a scoundrel.

But don't you think that as a whole, a management career at UPS encourages (at the least), and requires (at the most) dishonesty?

Just the numbers game that they have always played, and recently has been magnified a hundred times. Unrealistic mars and time allowances that almost force a management person to "fudge the numbers".

It seems like a game of Russian roulette, with your career on the line. To get promoted, I must look good on paper. The only way to look good on paper is to cheat and fudge numbers.

Why are we told to pre-record closed between 12 and 1, and then complete them after one? This is blatantly dishonest, but looks good on paper.

The same with packages left in the building that somehow get sheeted as closed. Looks great on paper, but let's face it, that package was missed.

It wasn't always like this. Presently at UPS, it takes a strong moral individual to NOT be dishonest. And that person will go nowhere.
 

cheryl

I started this.
Staff member
No, I don't think that as a whole, a management career at UPS encourages (at the least), and requires (at the most) dishonesty.

Why has no one brought up the level of integrity of the managers in charge of Labor Unions? How about the managers of pensions?

I've never worked at UPS but I have worked many different places, including a big telecommunications company and a couple of years at the post office :blush: .

In my experience there is little difference in the basic nature of human beings, no matter where they work or what they do. There are people that have character flaws in every job description, how about the recent scandals in the Catholic church?

Have you looked at the front page of the Brown Cafe today?
Thefts take place within Naples UPS - Gulfshore News
 

trickpony1

Well-Known Member
...soooo, how can you guys seriously say that everyone that's in management is a scoundrel??? It seems odd to me how comfortable you are stereotyping an entire category of your coworkers with such extreme black and white thinking... You may as well be stereotyping people by race or gender.

If this really represents your thinking then I wouldn't be surprised if your next thread is "Should {{insert your favorite racial stereotype here}} be drivers?...

People can't control whether they are male, female, black, white, red, yellow or any other attribute they are born with. They can control whether they succumb to the pressure applied to them to make the numbers look good. As Over9five has so eloquently explained......so don't and some do. The ones that fudge are eventually caught or propelled to great heights within the company. The ones that don't fudge go nowhere.
No one can tell me the fudging doesn't go on from the district manager level on down. Some are just more skilled at covering their tracks and/or passing the buck.
Makes me proud :mad:
 

canon

Well-Known Member
...soooo, how can you guys seriously say that everyone that's in management is a scoundrel??? It seems odd to me how comfortable you are stereotyping an entire category of your coworkers with such extreme black and white thinking... You may as well be stereotyping people by race or gender.

If this really represents your thinking then I wouldn't be surprised if your next thread is "Should {{insert your favorite racial stereotype here}} be drivers?...
i don't like the term scoundrel, I think it's a bit harsh. And everyone in mgmt is dishonest? Not even close. We can only comment on the centers we are experienced with. From another thread dealing with the negativity of themes:
The difference in center performance is limited to nothing more than one managers abilities in motivational speaking. Those that aren't so good rely on discipline and scare tactics. It's not a slam against mgmt, quite the opposite. It's my confidence in the people I report to that aren't allowed to deviate from a blanket policy that too often suffocates instead of protects. I have confidence that if allowed to, those entrusted to the positions of ctr mgrs and driver supes could "win the war" all by themselves. Maybe that's why they aren't allowed to. If they ever became "valuable", they would then be in a position to ask for more money to keep them from leaving. Or ask for the job of one of the people who don't want them to be valuable.

So far in this thread, we've only heard one mgmt person who doesn't have an actual membership address life when it's not so good:
When I started, I thought I knew how to be decent. However, the corporate culture at UPS is not one that allows people to be both successful (as measured by promotions), and decent. Much of what many people see as the problem is driven from the top down, and by corporate culture. Therefore, except in extraordinary cases, the actions of your front-line supervisors and managers are being manipulated (sometimes without their knowledge) by forces beyond their control thus turning them from 'decent' people.

Channahon denies fudging numbers was a practice in her centers, tieguy would never answer the question directly when I asked if he ever "made up mistakes" on space and visibility rides or fudge numbers to stay off the radar. And I have yet to see one driver who doesn't have an experience with someone in mgmt instructing them to do something, or know about a situation a supe engages, in which would be viewed as falsifying documents if Loss Prevention was clued in on whatever practice.

Over9five described it best saying it has been recently magnified (introduction of PAS time allowances). It's not stereotyping to highlight incidents which occur in our centers. Labeling mgmt as scoundrels is. Most separate the two and agree it's not a hatred of mgmt, rather an acknowledgment of the level of "fudging" which goes on in the mgmt ranks. If we get caught trying to play the numbers game dishonestly, we get in trouble too. There are dishonest drivers, no doubt about it. But in playing the numbers game most drivers know they don't have to because the union doesn't recognize company production standards.


If I gave the impression that I thought "everyone" in mgmt is a scoundrel, I do apologize. I certainly dont.
If this really represents your thinking then I wouldn't be surprised if your next thread is "Should {{insert your favorite racial stereotype here}} be drivers?...
I'll have to distance myself from the "racial stereotyping", not sure if you're implying accusations of mgmt dishonesty equals racial intonations from the people posting. But it is a good question, especially since ups hires from within. Should "runners" be drivers? I've known drivers who cut every corner and do the sloppiest work be praised by mgmt simply because they make the numbers sing. One of those people I know has been fired twice for falsifying documents, and continues to cut corners to this day.

Everyone just wants to be recognized for doing a good job. The impossible level of performance corporate expects, and disciplines for, causes some very decent people to resort to some unethical practices. And it's much more widespread than some care to admit judging from the responses in here. Maybe a poll is in order asking if the current mgmt team they report to engages in number fudging. To be fair, it does appear one sided... I'd have my own stories in a thread dealing with driver number fudging and dishonesty amongst hourlies.
 

Channahon

Well-Known Member
No, I don't think that as a whole, a management career at UPS encourages (at the least), and requires (at the most) dishonesty.

Why has no one brought up the level of integrity of the managers in charge of Labor Unions? How about the managers of pensions?

I've never worked at UPS but I have worked many different places, including a big telecommunications company and a couple of years at the post office :blush: .

In my experience there is little difference in the basic nature of human beings, no matter where they work or what they do. There are people that have character flaws in every job description, how about the recent scandals in the Catholic church?

Have you looked at the front page of the Brown Cafe today?
Thefts take place within Naples UPS - Gulfshore News

I was told a long time ago that perception is reality. It really doesn't matter what your actions may say, it's the perception.

The perception of some people on this board is that all UPS management are dishonest.

Some people on the board are looking for a UPS management person to agree or defend the negative comments or actions of UPS management. My comments are from past experience and knowledge, and I would not speak for an entire group of people.

I am sure if a management person posted that all hourly employees are scoundrels or dishonest, or come to work with the intention of stiffing UPS, I would think no one would agree with that statement or categorize everyone the same. Just as I would think an hourly would not defend a dishonest employee (thefts in NY and Naples) as of late.

As I've said in previous posts, there are good and weak management as there are the same in the hourly ranks. People are people and have their own personalities and work ethics.

As far as the labor unions, well, Wikipedia is a good site for research and does have some information on former Labor leaders, who unfortunately, spent some time in prison.
 

Channahon

Well-Known Member
Canon,

Channahon denies fudging numbers was a practice in her centers

I have no idea why you would make this statement. This must be an assumption on your part. I looked through all my posts, to see why you say something like this about me. What is going on?
 

brazenbrown

Well-Known Member
Being new to this board, a long time reader or lurker as they say, I found reading this thread is very amusing. I must say that all this fudging and dishonesty has provoked me to post once again. You know how they say people like dirt..I picked over9five to respond to since he seems to be a leader of sorts and a favorite with all the rep power and number of posts.

I don't for a minute think that everyone in management is a scoundrel.

They must really appreciate this comment.:wink:

But don't you think that as a whole, a management career at UPS encourages (at the least), and requires (at the most) dishonesty?

This almost seems like you've lost your marbles. What qualifications do you have to make this kind of a statement? Has some loser management person confided in you? Have you attended some of management's dishonesty meetings? Has the Company said...You know what we've been around 100 years and cheating has been soooooo good to us and our customers let's keep fudging our numbers for another 100 years..:cool:

Just the numbers game that they have always played, and recently has been magnified a hundred times. Unrealistic mars and time allowances that almost force a management person to "fudge the numbers".

Whose playin?? YOU! Yes, I'd feel forced to fudge (your favorite word) under that kind of pressure too, lose my dignity, lose my job, can't look Grandma in the eye anymore.. It's all worth it if the division manager pats me on the head.:thumbup1:

It seems like a game of Russian roulette, with your career on the line. To get promoted, I must look good on paper. The only way to look good on paper is to cheat and fudge numbers.

Again, were you promoted and then sent back? I just don't understand how you can make a judgment never being there. Please tell us about this magical window into management land that gives you all this knowledge.

Why are we told to pre-record closed between 12 and 1, and then complete them after one? This is blatantly dishonest, but looks good on paper.
The same with packages left in the building that somehow get sheeted as closed. Looks great on paper, but let's face it, that package was missed.
If you're doing these things (and still over9five) then you and your sup, if he or she is instructing you, should be fired. Don't you have a shop steward who will represent you or do you just go along with the lies because it benefits you too..?

It wasn't always like this. Presently at UPS, it takes a strong moral individual to NOT be dishonest. And that person will go nowhere.

Yes, and fudging will get you to the top...What are you smokin??:w00t:
 

tieguy

Banned
Channahon denies fudging numbers was a practice in her centers, tieguy would never answer the question directly

I don't believe its a question I should have to answer anymore then requiring all postal workers to get a psych evaluation.

And I have yet to see one driver who doesn't have an experience with someone in mgmt instructing them to do something, or know about a situation a supe engages, in which would be viewed as falsifying documents if Loss Prevention was clued in on whatever practice.

I have also seen numerous occasions where a driver thought they were being told to do something shaky when they simply did not understand the issue.

Also seen drivers call in accusations of dishonesty on the 1-800 number of things that were not happening or technically impossible. Yet for whatever reason that driver thought something shaky was going on.
 
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