trickpony1
Well-Known Member
Last edited by a moderator:
B
bald head
Guest
You really jumped to the conspiracy theory conclusion there trickpony. Just because he said that drivers dont know the whole situation doesn't mean he called you stupid. Maybe they had a meeting while you were onroad. Maybe some other adjustment was agreed upon in advance. Maybe you missed the conference call.
I'll bet you see brown helicopters hovering outside of your house right now.
I'll bet you see brown helicopters hovering outside of your house right now.
trickpony1
Well-Known Member
I don't know about the brown helicopters but I can speak to 28+ years of exposure to arrogant, condescending management people as well as one rather pronounced frequent management poster on this site who thinks he is always right and everyone else is wrong.
I appreciate your concern though
I appreciate your concern though
tieguy
Banned
tieguy
Banned
I don't know about the brown helicopters but I can speak to 28+ years of exposure to arrogant, condescending management people as well as one rather pronounced frequent management poster on this site who thinks he is always right and everyone else is wrong.
I appreciate your concern though
In this case you clearly showed about 28 minutes of experience and completely went off the deep end and clearly proved to everyone that you have been the person who thinks he is always right and that everyone else is always wrong. I thank you buddy for proving me right.
tieguy
Banned
moderators I would like to draw attention to this vicious attack by trickpony before this thread goes any further to again prove my previous point that we have a pack of dogs attacking anyone they disagree with and thus forcing posters here to speak via the private message forum. This attack by trickpony was clearly unfounded and unprovoked.
canon
Well-Known Member
We keep seeing it come up, mgmt falsifying records for one reason or another, then defending and denying it. Would love to see the stats on reasons for mgmt being terminated or demoted. Bet that's a record kept closely guarded.
And refusing to answer a question which would exonerate oneself and keep the image of integrity intact is rediculous. Refusing to lie about one's dishonest acts is even more laughable. If it's not wrong, there is no reason not to discuss it. However, pleading the 5th is quite appropriate in this situation and answers the question completely in my opinion.
You're right, it was an assumption. Based on this statement:
And this one:
Would love to hear your thoughts on number fudging, regardless of your involvement in it.
And refusing to answer a question which would exonerate oneself and keep the image of integrity intact is rediculous. Refusing to lie about one's dishonest acts is even more laughable. If it's not wrong, there is no reason not to discuss it. However, pleading the 5th is quite appropriate in this situation and answers the question completely in my opinion.
You're right, it was an assumption. Based on this statement:
And this one:
I took that to mean you did not fudge numbers and ensured mgmt and hourly alike play by all the rules. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to insinuate you were one of the honest ones. Won't happen again.
Would love to hear your thoughts on number fudging, regardless of your involvement in it.
tieguy
Banned
Its actually an easy question to answer. No I have not is the answer. The point again no matter how cute you get with the concept is that people should not be assumed guilty and then required to prove or state their innocence. Its a concept you have verbally fought hard for until it came time to apply the same rule towards a management person.
canon
Well-Known Member
Iconoclast
Well-Known Member
Excellent discussion. I think one of the things that gets overlooked when we talk about management at UPS is training, or lack thereof. Let me give you an example. Most companies who hire management candidates from the outside, the single biggest determining criteria in qualifying a candidate to fulfill a job opportunity is their prior experience. If a company is hiring for an experienced human resources manager, it will not consider many candidates who are experienced accountants. Now, not many accountants would typically apply for a job as a human resources manager, especially when the job posting would certainly list the minimum requirements, not the least of which is a specific and mandatory number of years as a human resources manager.
UPS is different. The criteria for fulfilling management positions is not the core competencies and skills in that specific specialized area of work, but rather knowledge of the company as a whole and experience and tenure in UPS culture. When you are transferred at UPS and given new job responsibilities there are not job specific training programs for managers in that respective area.
If you have spent 20 years in package and you are assigned to business development, you may go through a business development class or training session for a few weeks, but that's it. you may soon be responsible for developing and leading sales people, retaining business and representing the brand, having never made a sales call in your entire life!! - Mind boggling. Whereas another company, let's use FedEx as an example, when hiring someone in a very similar business development capacity, will only be relying on a qualified candidate who has spent years in sales, developing people, negotiating contracts and representing a specific brand.
In the UPS scenario, you know the company inside and out, but you have no idea how to sell. In the other scenario, you don't know the product or the company, but you know the job you have been hired to do, sales, and you have spent years in that field of endeavor-in fact, that is the only reason that FedEx will consider you for the position. You can hit the ground running.
Formalized sales training programs at top companies are designed to take experienced sales people and teach them a specific product line, not how to sell, they would never have considered you unless you were experienced, after all, you cannot teach someone to sell in a training class, that takes years of experience. UPS has sales training programs, but they are almost always teaching product features and benefits to people who have no experience in sales! They learn the products but what do you do with that knowledge. If you are responsible for other people and one of your charges, who is also inexperienced, has a question about sales strategies, where do you draw from?
I use sales as an example here, but this scenario is replicated in almost all of our business segments. What we end up doing is relying on management people who have learned their job - trial by fire - and finally have the experience to shepard others along the way to provide on the job training. How much more effective would on the job training be if the person you are training has spent the bulk of their professional career in the exact discipline you are training them for, or a very similar one. So what if that experience was received outside of UPS.
Training is an enormous expense for all companies. Training is also something that cannot be overlooked, skimped on, or cut back. One of the ways to get the most bang out of your buck in training, is to hire people who have professional experience and core competency skills in the position you are hiring for.
Remember, whenever you have management turnover, the people that leave are usually the ones that have the ability to get another job quickly, they are often your higher potential employees.
UPS is different. The criteria for fulfilling management positions is not the core competencies and skills in that specific specialized area of work, but rather knowledge of the company as a whole and experience and tenure in UPS culture. When you are transferred at UPS and given new job responsibilities there are not job specific training programs for managers in that respective area.
If you have spent 20 years in package and you are assigned to business development, you may go through a business development class or training session for a few weeks, but that's it. you may soon be responsible for developing and leading sales people, retaining business and representing the brand, having never made a sales call in your entire life!! - Mind boggling. Whereas another company, let's use FedEx as an example, when hiring someone in a very similar business development capacity, will only be relying on a qualified candidate who has spent years in sales, developing people, negotiating contracts and representing a specific brand.
In the UPS scenario, you know the company inside and out, but you have no idea how to sell. In the other scenario, you don't know the product or the company, but you know the job you have been hired to do, sales, and you have spent years in that field of endeavor-in fact, that is the only reason that FedEx will consider you for the position. You can hit the ground running.
Formalized sales training programs at top companies are designed to take experienced sales people and teach them a specific product line, not how to sell, they would never have considered you unless you were experienced, after all, you cannot teach someone to sell in a training class, that takes years of experience. UPS has sales training programs, but they are almost always teaching product features and benefits to people who have no experience in sales! They learn the products but what do you do with that knowledge. If you are responsible for other people and one of your charges, who is also inexperienced, has a question about sales strategies, where do you draw from?
I use sales as an example here, but this scenario is replicated in almost all of our business segments. What we end up doing is relying on management people who have learned their job - trial by fire - and finally have the experience to shepard others along the way to provide on the job training. How much more effective would on the job training be if the person you are training has spent the bulk of their professional career in the exact discipline you are training them for, or a very similar one. So what if that experience was received outside of UPS.
Training is an enormous expense for all companies. Training is also something that cannot be overlooked, skimped on, or cut back. One of the ways to get the most bang out of your buck in training, is to hire people who have professional experience and core competency skills in the position you are hiring for.
Remember, whenever you have management turnover, the people that leave are usually the ones that have the ability to get another job quickly, they are often your higher potential employees.
You're right, it was an assumption. Based
I took that to mean you did not fudge numbers and ensured mgmt and hourly alike play by all the rules. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to insinuate you were one of the honest ones. Won't happen again.
Would love to hear your thoughts on number fudging, regardless of your involvement in it.
You just don't get it do you? You are still insinuating I have some knowledge or involvement in this deceptive practice.
If you look at some of my previous posts, I have encouraged employees to call the Business Conduct line with their concerns of management "fudging" numbers or any other inappropiate behavior.
The only person who can make a difference is the employee who knows or suspects dishonesty and has the integrity to make a phone call to the Business Conduct line or contact Security. And that is everyone's responsibility as a UPS emplpoyee to keep everyone honest.
And I have knowledge of how investigatons are conducted, how employees are interviewed and how employees are walked out the door. Both management and hourly.
Now I'm done beating this dead horse.
canon
Well-Known Member
lol, I promise I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. You said you had no involvement in number fudging and that's how i described it in my post: channahon denies number fudging was a practice in her center. It was an acknowledgment that the practice isn't present in every center. I went on to say according to the majority of the drivers posting here it is, so it's definately not isolated either.
As for beating the dead horse, I thought of using that exact term this morning before running. I thought, when I get back, I'll use the 'beating a dead horse' term in one of my posts... then started thinking of the Guns N Roses song Dead Horse.
Hmmm.... I wasn't wearing my afbd at the time either. Creepy!
Ole Ore Brown
New Member
Tie Guy is right, there are bad eggs everywhere, in management and not. The management people impact more my their actions so you see them easier when they screw up. 90% of the folks on both sides of the game are good hard working folks, it is the 10% on both sides that make the those all get the bad rapes, again on both sides.
Management at the top doesn't understand how do deliver a package these days, they have eliminated management positions and staff positions so much and given it to the centers and not given the centers any more help that those folks just get by.
All the real time data the up mangement gets, just gives them daily ammo to beat the crap out of the centers and drivers that we never use to have. That is the micro management by people that once walked by a center in their life and called it a dispatch center experience, so now they are qualified.
Sell your stock.
Management at the top doesn't understand how do deliver a package these days, they have eliminated management positions and staff positions so much and given it to the centers and not given the centers any more help that those folks just get by.
All the real time data the up mangement gets, just gives them daily ammo to beat the crap out of the centers and drivers that we never use to have. That is the micro management by people that once walked by a center in their life and called it a dispatch center experience, so now they are qualified.
Sell your stock.
Scoundrels are running amuck in every aspect of our society, corporate boards, unions, political parties and even in religious organizations. No accountability with people who fear no consquences for their actions, money bribes and lawyering up appears to be the norm today. No true leadership, our leaders are easily bought and sold, appeasing the mob to get their approval. Biggest fear with bad leadership (union and company) is that the real culprits are beyond being accountable. Most the ground level supervisors and managers are fearful of being downgraded if they challenge their high ups on an integrity issue, called not being a team player. From my point of view most upper management are carbon copies of the same, people like to associate with like minded individuals, so the promotion process is tainted with "yes men" and "good old boys". One big huge "pecking order".
Reputation goes a long way still at UPS, the workers probadly know more about bad management procedures than the corporate boards. When was that last time your input was asked for being consider as a lowly union employee, no matter how much years you have with this company. ERI is a marketing tool to make the problems appear as products of a "disgruntled employee" without any internal investigation into a mentioned problem. The employee hotline scares most of the employees, because TRUST has been broken over the years from abusive policies and misunderstandings. Most of us do not trust the union or the company to do the right thing, we are being stomped into the ground with the power games being done behind the scenes. No matter how clever we might appear on this site it does not amount to a pile of beans, your future is being decided currently without true feedback.
Reputation goes a long way still at UPS, the workers probadly know more about bad management procedures than the corporate boards. When was that last time your input was asked for being consider as a lowly union employee, no matter how much years you have with this company. ERI is a marketing tool to make the problems appear as products of a "disgruntled employee" without any internal investigation into a mentioned problem. The employee hotline scares most of the employees, because TRUST has been broken over the years from abusive policies and misunderstandings. Most of us do not trust the union or the company to do the right thing, we are being stomped into the ground with the power games being done behind the scenes. No matter how clever we might appear on this site it does not amount to a pile of beans, your future is being decided currently without true feedback.
tieguy
Banned
Thats a fair point. A search for union officials or religious leaders could have presented a list equally as impressive as the one canon posted.
BrownBlackandBlue
Member
UPS is a great place to be and very rewarding when you are making your numbers, if you are not making your numbers, it is very uncomfortable place to be and you are very motivated to find a way to improve. The pressure is so great that some people who are not prepared for it, crack and do things they normally would not, to escape the pressure. They probably do not belong at UPS to begin with and they usually find the door or are shown the door. (Most, I bet, are happier for it because for them, UPS is a miserable place to be).
That being said, while we need to treat people fairly, we are in a position that does not have a lot of flexibility. We have tough goals to achieve, and human nature is to settle for less than is expected. Just watch the morning report when upper management takes the pressure off SPC. You can watch the SPC number slide downward across the district after about a week. Thus, everyone is made to be afraid to miss SPC and is kept in that state. Are the numbers and goals always fair? I would say not. Are they neccessary? Apparently.
UPS values conformity first of all in its managers. Doing your own thing when you are one of 400,000 doesn't cut it. It's unfortunate that that is where we are in this world that increasingly values "new" mangement styles, but our cost structure is such that we have to demand a lot from everyone. I guess never being good enough and always being squeezed for more leaves us all a little black and blue.
That being said, while we need to treat people fairly, we are in a position that does not have a lot of flexibility. We have tough goals to achieve, and human nature is to settle for less than is expected. Just watch the morning report when upper management takes the pressure off SPC. You can watch the SPC number slide downward across the district after about a week. Thus, everyone is made to be afraid to miss SPC and is kept in that state. Are the numbers and goals always fair? I would say not. Are they neccessary? Apparently.
UPS values conformity first of all in its managers. Doing your own thing when you are one of 400,000 doesn't cut it. It's unfortunate that that is where we are in this world that increasingly values "new" mangement styles, but our cost structure is such that we have to demand a lot from everyone. I guess never being good enough and always being squeezed for more leaves us all a little black and blue.
Canon/Axl Rose
THE TOP 100 CORPORATE CRIMINALS OF THE 1990's
Just goes to show you that the problems are not limited to UPS. In fact UPS isn't even on the list...
I feel another 100 years coming..
By the way Cowboy:
Sick of this life
Not that you'd care
I'm not the only one with
whom these feelings I share
Nobody understands,
quite why we're here
We're searchin' for answers
That never appear
Now I understand where you're coming from.
THE TOP 100 CORPORATE CRIMINALS OF THE 1990's
Just goes to show you that the problems are not limited to UPS. In fact UPS isn't even on the list...
I feel another 100 years coming..
By the way Cowboy:
Sick of this life
Not that you'd care
I'm not the only one with
whom these feelings I share
Nobody understands,
quite why we're here
We're searchin' for answers
That never appear
Now I understand where you're coming from.
canon
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody is comparing fudging numbers to actual criminal activity. But if we're going to look at "labor unions" and acknowledge some of the leaders have spent time in prison, then we're in a whole other game... one where leaders like Ken Lay from Enron and other big corporations are the key players in everything from environmental poisoning to worker deaths. In that setting, "criminals" from the labor union are in good company.Canon/Axl Rose
THE TOP 100 CORPORATE CRIMINALS OF THE 1990's
Just goes to show you that the problems are not limited to UPS. In fact UPS isn't even on the list...
I feel another 100 years coming..
By the way Cowboy:
Sick of this life
Not that you'd care
I'm not the only one with
whom these feelings I share
Nobody understands,
quite why we're here
We're searchin' for answers
That never appear
Now I understand where you're coming from.
But if you want to know if my current mgmt team fudges numbers? Yes. Did the last group? Yes. Did the group before? Yes. And before that? Yes. Does the mgmt team in the other centers? Yes. Did the groups before? Yes. It doesn't make anyone a racist or company hating ingrate to recognize a breech of ethics in day to day dealings with our management teams. In fact, everyone I've seen approach this subject says the same thing: Pressure to meet unrealistic numbers fuels the need to fudge. It's not tantamount to murder or pedophilia, it just simply exists. And in a lot of cases, the dishonesty from driver supe or ctr manager keeps the driver off the hotplate. But it still happens.
Had to go listen to the song now that it came up. Rock on indeed.
Guns N' Roses - Dead Horse
I also dont think everyone in mgmt is dishonest, or that everyone in hourly is honest. Thats just plain ludicrous. Management gets promotion from within, not from the local pokey.
But I have seen that production, being harder to meet, has caused some hourly to try to cheat to get someone to tell them for once, that they are doing a good job. Seeing that safety awards, driving awards, and yrs of service seldom get recognized, but run 2 bucks late, and you get recognition big time. In some centers it was seen OVERNIGHT, a scratch driver go to being 1+ hrs late, and no one in management would address it? And we are not on PAS> YET. And have been told no time study will be done til we go on PAS.
I had a pkg sheeted as I had to move it out of the way to maneuver til I could get to the stop. So I wouldnt forget about it and have to go back to the area again. Seems when I delivered it, I also sheeted it, so I delivered it twice, and was told I was trying to fudge numbers which is dishonest. I said what I did and it was a mistake. one stop is not going to make me look better, Im not a rocket scientist but even I know that. They made it look like I was trying to pad stops. No human error, sorry, Ill try not to make that mistake again....And they all know me better than that, I may be older, slower, ditzier, more forgettful, but I am not a liar.
But yet I will find misloads, and call early as they are businesses, so someone can come get it and make delivery and I wont hear about it the rest of the day, hand it to the OMS at night, and they just record it however they do as missed. But accidently sheet one between 12- and 1 and you get reamed, but if you are dishonest you can prerecord and stop complete after 1 and its all OK????????
You were still there during that time, did the same thing but lie about when you did it. I never intentionally try to play the game where I "miss" a stop because I dont want to go back, but I guess some do, and thats because they are worried about making numbers and not the customer. But I can see how drivers are doing this, to try to meet standards. And I was never instructed to pre record by mgmt.
I dont think most start out to be dishonest, most management people think they can make a difference, some do, others are scared because they have a family a mortgage, and so much time in they dont want to go somewhere else, so they try to keep things going smoothly, hoping things will get better. Most hourly do the same. I think we all start out honestly just wanting to do a good job for the company that pays so well, but doing the best as in yrs past netted us respect, and pride in our job, now just makes us look like slackers. Thats just my opinion.
I for one appreciate hearing from management. I dont think you all just say, if you dont like it get out, because you dont want to hear that from your boss.
And I gotta go, I hear the brown copters flying overhead.
But I have seen that production, being harder to meet, has caused some hourly to try to cheat to get someone to tell them for once, that they are doing a good job. Seeing that safety awards, driving awards, and yrs of service seldom get recognized, but run 2 bucks late, and you get recognition big time. In some centers it was seen OVERNIGHT, a scratch driver go to being 1+ hrs late, and no one in management would address it? And we are not on PAS> YET. And have been told no time study will be done til we go on PAS.
I had a pkg sheeted as I had to move it out of the way to maneuver til I could get to the stop. So I wouldnt forget about it and have to go back to the area again. Seems when I delivered it, I also sheeted it, so I delivered it twice, and was told I was trying to fudge numbers which is dishonest. I said what I did and it was a mistake. one stop is not going to make me look better, Im not a rocket scientist but even I know that. They made it look like I was trying to pad stops. No human error, sorry, Ill try not to make that mistake again....And they all know me better than that, I may be older, slower, ditzier, more forgettful, but I am not a liar.
But yet I will find misloads, and call early as they are businesses, so someone can come get it and make delivery and I wont hear about it the rest of the day, hand it to the OMS at night, and they just record it however they do as missed. But accidently sheet one between 12- and 1 and you get reamed, but if you are dishonest you can prerecord and stop complete after 1 and its all OK????????
You were still there during that time, did the same thing but lie about when you did it. I never intentionally try to play the game where I "miss" a stop because I dont want to go back, but I guess some do, and thats because they are worried about making numbers and not the customer. But I can see how drivers are doing this, to try to meet standards. And I was never instructed to pre record by mgmt.
I dont think most start out to be dishonest, most management people think they can make a difference, some do, others are scared because they have a family a mortgage, and so much time in they dont want to go somewhere else, so they try to keep things going smoothly, hoping things will get better. Most hourly do the same. I think we all start out honestly just wanting to do a good job for the company that pays so well, but doing the best as in yrs past netted us respect, and pride in our job, now just makes us look like slackers. Thats just my opinion.
I for one appreciate hearing from management. I dont think you all just say, if you dont like it get out, because you dont want to hear that from your boss.
And I gotta go, I hear the brown copters flying overhead.
