UPS EMPLOYEES START NEW UNION!

[tieguy]

"Our company would be one of them doing so except they cannot because the contract and laws of the USA stop them from making some moves.
They are currently working to get the laws of the USA changed regarding this.
As far as "After all who makes up the largest part of ITB." it would be those "other small companies"."

To give this discussion some meaningfull insight you would have to provide some honest answers. You my friend appear to be hiding from that honesty. More than 80 percent of the top trucking companies that were in business in 1979 and contributing to multi-employer plans went our of business. Over the past 26 years no trucking company of any significant size has come on board to replace these top trucking companies. As a result, contribution made on behalf of UPSers subsidize other participants in the plan. For example, in the central states plan, for every dollar UPS contributes toward pension benefits for UPS employees 60 cents goes to retirees wose companies went out of business. In 1980, there were four active employees for every one retiree. Today, the ratio has swung the other way and put the burden directly on the shoulders of UPS people- each active UPS employee is providing for almost two retirees. Furthermore, because guidelines for multi-employer plans are far less stringent that those for single employer plans, the trustees of these plans have raised benifit levels without having the ability to pay for them.

 

[tieguy]

"Just too may loop holes from what I have seen. While I dont trust the teamsters or for that matter UPS, what makes you think that we ought to trust someone promising the moon?"

Danny don't trust the company, trust the regulatory guidelines. The teamster multi=employer plans do not have to meet the strict regulatory guidelines of a single employer plan. The teamsters plan when they fail and some will fail will only be insured for up to a 1000 dollars a month for each retiree, the single employer plans have to meet much more stringent oversight and are therefore insured for up to 4 thouseand per retiree per month.

This is a cold hard fact of pensions that the teamsters union does not want you to know about.

 

[feeders]

A 50 cent an hour raise cost UPS $600 million. If we forgo a raise for just two years, we can save the company $1.8 billion, and get out of this multi-employer pension mess with the employee savings from wages. The APWA will be a completely new fund altogether. What you have acrued in a union fund, you draw that benefit when you reach that age in addition to what you acrue with the APWA.
COME STAND WITH US!

 

[sawman]

Amen to that My2cents! The teamsters have had more than enough time and chances to make things right, but all we get is more lies.Check out TDU.com, they have a new post confirming that Hoffa Jr. knew as early as Nov. 2001 that the centeral states fund was going to make cuts. That was way before contract talk, yet he lied and said that the money was there.
For all of you APWA skeptics, go to there web page. there is a place to ask any question that you may have. Every time that I have emailed them with a question, they have gotten back to me with an answer within two or three days.
At this point. What do we have to loose? Give the APWA a chance. AT least there trying to make a differance, which is more than I can say for most of you.
Come jump in the water is fine!

 

[wkmac]

Trickpony,
The jumping ship I believe we're discussing or at least I'm discussing is jumping from IBT to another union. As for the company they are a business responsible to the customer and their shareholders and nothing else contary to popular mythological spin. As far as "jumping ship" to them which you seem to imply that is not even in the mix. UPS is sitting this one out and will continue to do so. If the fund goes south they will use their legal leverage in any way to jump out of any liability and I hold no ill will towards them for that. They are here to make money not hold our hands. We made our beds now we must sleep in them but you better consider moving at some point because the house around the bed is gonna come down IMO!

 

[wkmac]

feeders and sawman,
Get me my money into my 401k away from everyone but me where I can watch it and take it with me if I decide to jump completely off the UPS ship and you have my undivided attention! Outside of that I just sit on the sidelines watching what falls out of this as at this point you just can't trust anyone anymore! JMHO.

 

[ok2bclever]

Meaningful insight usually goes out the window and stupid name calling accusations are normally the rule when you speak tie.

I truly get tired of you stating I am a liar every time you don't like the answers, so don't call me friend.

With friends like you I have no need of enemies.

Plus people will start questioning my tastes if they think you are a friend.

These stats that you have used before such as 80% of the major trucking company have gone out of business since '79, etc. got a source so some of us could verify it's accuracy.

Not calling you a liar on this, just would love to have verifiable facts.

Luckily, trucking is not the only Teamster industry as the trucking industry has taken such a hit in the last several decades and we have made significant gains elsewhere in such fields as medicine, but obviously not enough.

That said, the multi-employer funds are subsidized by companies contributing money per working employee, equally proportionally from my understanding.

UPS does NOT put in more than anyone else per employee.

They put in whatever was negotiated, just like all the rest.

When a company goes out of business THE REMAINING contributing companies in the fund shoulder the increased burden proportional to their membership in the fund.

That is not a lie, it is the facts as I understand them.

If it is not accurate anyone feel free to correct it.

If true, then UPS doesn't "carry the fund" for the rest of the participants proportionally any more than any other contributing company.

It would be nice to have the actual facts rather than just a few slanted ones presented by a certain unreliable management person.

Several sources use the figure of 200,000 UPS Teamsters so that is probably relatively accurate.

The Teamster site states 1.4 million members.

Anyone know if that counts current workers, retired ones too or everyone that ever existed?

While I believe you are sincere feeders, I have serious doubts of so many of the statements on the website and even your initial posting.

For instance, "Recognized by both the Teamsters and UPS as competing for collect bargaining rights", I was at a State Panel mid week and asked both UPS management and top Teamster officials what they knew about APWA and to a person neither side had heard or knew a thing about it.

Now I trust these guys to various degrees, but all of them regarding whether they knew about APWA in one on one conversations.

That seems a bit ridiculous that not one of them knew anything if this new union was "recognized by both as a competitor for collect(ive) bargaining rights.

I am sure someone has brought it to Hoffa's attention just like anything TDU says is brought to his attention.

That doesn't mean much in itself though.

my2cents, while I have a high opinion of my knowledge and abilities within the scope of my duties as a steward and could certainly provide better and more accurate rhetoric than what I have seen so far from this group I also know my limitations and lack of "real knowledge and experience" in running a group that could adequately match up against/with UPS to provide us a more secure future and the fact that I could easily improve the ad copy I have read on the referred to website speaks volumes in my mind on how lacking it is in competency to actually do so.

Also, I see anyone spearheading a group trying to muscle in on UPS and the Teamsters as being a primary candidate to being blunted.

With 30 plus years of experience my enthusiasm for "leading the charging of the hill" has been tempered by the resulting casualties I have witnessed.

Sorry, but I will stay on the sidelines and cheer any waves this group makes for the Teamsters as the Teamsters are in need of some shaking up and competition.

If they actually end up both real and formidable I will be willing to act as support personnel.

PS - 20 to 25 years to go, I would have expected you to be considerably farther along by the maturity of your posts, my compliments my2cents.

 

[my2cents]

Overall, I'm with wkmac on the portability of the 401(k). Having said that, I believe the standard pension has more popular appeal with the employee. One type of pension I'm interested in is those relatively new "cash balance plans," which offer portability if one decides to move on to another employer. From what I understand, these balances can be rolled over. On the other hand, I'm also familiar with the IBM and Xerox cases brought by employees who allege these plans discriminate against older workers having longevity with the company. Somehow the payouts worked out to be less when they accepted the cash balance plan. Before I would jump on the cash balance plan bandwagan however, I would have to learn much more about them. I believe the long time IBM employees ended up with some extra cash as a result of their settement agreement. Anyway, just another alternative to consider in this debate.

BTW, thanks for the kind words OK2BC. Made my day.

(Message edited by my2cents on February 19, 2005)

 

[ok2bclever]

You are welcome my2cents, you earned the compliment.

If I was younger I'd be pushing for something more like the complete seperability (and mobility) of a 401k adaption strategy.

As I am not younger I am going with the MegaMillions strategy to supplement the dubious pension and ultimate social security and the more solid personal savings.

 

[feeders]

Ok2bC,
Not all employers make the same contribution amounts in the Union funds. It is based on the amount of net profits of the company as well as the number of employees. It is what the Teamsters call "their fare share." This is why there are different benefit levels in most plans. Just thought you needed to know.

(Message edited by feeders on February 19, 2005)

 

[sawman]

Well people I hope everyone doesn't have the wait and see attitude or we'll all end up with nothing. If stealing your money and your future doesn't get you motivated to do something, I guess the old saying is right. We're just a bunch of dumb-a-- truck drivers.

 

[parttimejon]

something tells me that feeders and sawman are the same person

 

[trickpony]

Wkmac,
I stand corrected. Don't know why I put the company into this question except there had been a past concern about a takeover of the pension etc. by the company. I'll try to pay attention. Thanks.

 

[ok2bclever]

feeders, I knew it wasn't the same which is why I said proportional, but is it really based on how profitable the individual company is?

I would think it would be directly related to the proportion that each individual company currently contributes which would come from negotiated rates per employee and then how many employees any individual company had.

Obviously, UPS would be the single largest contributor (not saying the majority contributor, not by a long shot)as they have the largest employee base and one of the highest contributing levels per employee.

Someone must contribute more than us right? As there is a pension bracket higher than ours in the Central States fund.

Central States stats, CS currently has:

over 150,000 active participants.

more than 206,000 retirees and surviving spouses each month.

Benefit payments in 2003 exceeded $2.35 billion.

The Fund's assets as of December 31, 2003 were in excess of $17.7 billion.

I have not found anything regarding the more current 2004 stats.

Sawman, you will get a ton of support for making statements like "We're just a bunch of dumb-a-- truck drivers" which by your definition is anyone who doesn't see everything your way.

I applaud your passion, but it's this type of naivety that tells me the chances of this group to actually amount to anything is bleak.

Please, prove me wrong.

PS - ummm, hopefully you guys aren't as sincerely innocent as you might be. You are not using your real names in your Profiles are you?

This is not about honesty, but rather that discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[feeders]

Just face it everyone. We all have been screwed by the Teamsters pension funds. We are at least trying to do something about it. The alternative is to do what the Teamsters expect. NOTHING!
COME STAND WITH US!

 

[dannyboy]

"Someone must contribute more than us right?"

OK, the answer to that question is NOPE. And like him or not, Tie did post the truth on the whole mess. Look at what you posted

"Central States stats, CS currently has:

over 150,000 active participants.

more than 206,000 retirees and surviving spouses each month."

And just how long do you think this unballanced retirement will last? Currently there is only a bit less than 47 grand in the kitty for all of those that are retired and those that are putting money into the plan. And the paltry sum that is being placed into the fund only figures out to $950 a month for the current retired crowd.

We are the largest payor of funds into the multi employer plans. Deal with it.

I have a retired Teamster on my route. Died in the wool hard core. HIs pension is $175 a month with no insurance. And to this day he is still hard core teamster, even though they have truely screwed him.

As for the teamsters wanting to grow, that is bull. 549 went belly up and we tried to work it so we could service the area. Our area overlaps much of the same area. But because of who you know and blow at the international, they were given to the local out of North Carolina. We told them that if our local were able to recruit in the area we could deliver some 5000 new high paid workers into the union. But they seem like they dont care.

So, show me what you have to offer, the business plan. Show me more than a pie in the sky.

As a practical matter, with less than 520 working days left, what happens really has no bearing on my situation, but I am still interested in reforms when it comes to the Teamsters and UPS.

d

PS, by the way, under the current way the benefits read, if my wife and I are killed right now, my children only get 37 grand in life insurance. They never get one dime of my pension.

(Message edited by dannyboy on February 19, 2005)

 

[moreluck]

I read in the business section of the paper today that the Teamsters and other large labor unions are pushing a plan to cut in half the amount of $$ they send to AFL-CIO and devote that $$ to organizing workers.

Maybe they will be going after FDX to unionize. Then again, maybe the local higher ups will just drive new caddies. We'll just wait and see, I guess.

No new caddy for Sweeney.

 

[ok2bclever]

danny,

You answered my quoted question glibly and unequivalently, but frankly I question your accuracy and knowledge.

If no one contributes more than us why is there a category 18+ which is higher and pays better than the category 18 that UPS workers are in?

And hell, tie's statement about ratios is something that has been mentioned by many here including myself long before he resaid it.

What's more it is nothing new or specific to Teamster pensions.

Newsflash!

The baby boom generation 1946-1964 (ages 59-41 this year) has been retiring for the last bunch of years and will continue for the next decade plus.

This will negatively affect all pension funds to one extent or another.

If you add bad market years in, more funds go in trouble or down.

This is not news except to the ostriches.

As for judging someone else who is a retired "hard core teamster" and that "he was screwed" perhaps the man on the scene knows better than you, but how could that be possible?

Maybe he is old enough to remember the way companies treated workers (beyond the lousy wages and no benefits) before their were unions and appreciates what was done back then instead of being like some of the spoiled know it alls of today who never had to put up with that type of crap and can afford to pontify how useless the unions are from the comfort of their current wages, benefits and job security.

Realize that useless union is the only reason you can contemplate retirement in 520.

Is there a ton of fat in the union heirarchy, yep, do a lot of stupid decisions come out of the Teamsters, yep.

So? You know of a perfect organization somewhere?

As far as the pension and your kids go, what is your point, you thought this was an inheritance plan? Sheesh!

 

[parttimejon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't North Carolina a right to work state. Therefore alot of the Greensboro and Winston-Salem drivers don't pay union dues but are still represented by the union. If you started this "new union" would you pay their dues?? And don't you think if you payed some dues, it may help your pension plan alittle. JMO

 

[upsdude]

Ptjohn....

Union dues have nothing to do with the pension plan. The ONLY money paid towards the health & welfare plan comes from UPS.