What would you do - 200 years ago

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by dilligaf, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    Danny, it's funny that you bring up the confederate flag. When I read Trp's post I was going to say something about this same thing, although not the situation you pointed out. Not being from the South or the Northeast, I wasn't quite sure how to approach it. I don't really have any frame of reference to use.

    So I will put it this way. To me a flag is a flag. I don't think it necessarily equates to any one action or agenda but instead represents as a whole. So to respond to you Danny, I would say that it should not be an issue. If a black person were wearing a Confederate Flag, I would take it to mean that he has some personal attachment to the Southern States. Probably born and raised in the South but it wouldn't matter.

    Regardless of what happened in history (why the Confederate Flag came to be), the Confederate Flag will always be used as a representation of the Southern States. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. People will always read whatever they feel into the situation. Sometimes, rightfully so, sometimes not. Does this make any sense?
     
  2. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Re: what would you do

    Dil

    The confederate flag came into being as a symbol of the confederate states rights to self determination.

    Unfortunatly, one of the worst organizations known as the KKK began to mis use it for their own adgenda, and because of that misuse, it began its linkage with racists.

    But as such it has been an object of focus for activists to proclaim that it is a symbol of slavery and racism. Which of course serious students of history will tell a different story.

    But then to the victor belongs the right of writing the history books meant for general consumption......

    d
     
  3. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    Re: what would you do

    And I think you answered my question (making sense) and your owm conundrum. If you look at it (the flag) at its very core representation and set aside all other agends associated with it, you have an answer.
     
  4. bellesotico

    bellesotico BOXstar

    Re: what would you do

     
  5. pickup

    pickup Well-Known Member

    Re: what would you do

    Very true, danny. Its not what the flag has on it but the person's beliefs who put it on the pole or who is waving it You can have a demonstration and a counter demonstration at an abortion clinic and you might see american flags in the camps of both warring parties. Same flag, but totally diametrically opposed belief systems in the holders of the flags and yet both camps believe that the flags they are flying stands for what they stand for.
     
  6. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Re: what would you do


    Belle

    Tell me something, did the KKK not terrorize a lot of white folks?

    Do you know what the ratio of "African American" to other racial groups were when it comes to deaths caused by the KKK?

    And tell me, was reconstruction a good thing for the south?

    And one last question, what was Robert E Lee's view of 1, the ending of the war at the time he surrendered with 2 the wonderful reconstruction you mentioned that followed, especially when viewed by the terroristic actions of Sherman's march to the sea.

    d
     
  7. KidUPS

    KidUPS New Member

    Re: what would you do


    If it was a management employee would you report it?
     
  8. bellesotico

    bellesotico BOXstar

    Re: what would you do

     
  9. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    Re: what would you do

    Damm straight I would.
     
  10. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Re: what would you do

    My point was this. Lee was lied to when he surrendered. He later on remarked that had he known of the horrific atrocities that were to be committed against his fellow Americans at the hand of Sherman, he would have insisted on fighting to the last man.

    The actual beginnings of the movement that became the KKK is also very interesting to study. Politics at its best.

    I am not intimating you were disagreeing, but since you brought up the subject of the Socratic method of study.....

    Anyway, I would enjoy deeper discussions with you on the subject.

    Best

    d
     
  11. trplnkl

    trplnkl 555

    Re: what would you do

    The same thing I would do if it were ....fill in the blank... I would do nothing. The reason for my mentioning it is that not everyone that wears that type of symbol is automatically a racist.
     
  12. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Re: what would you do

    Thankyou for making that point!

    I agree 100%

    Best

    d
     
  13. trplnkl

    trplnkl 555

    Re: what would you do

    pheeeeewww...for a few minutes there I thought we were gonna get off topic on this thread....LMAO
     
  14. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    Re: what would you do

    LOL kinda the same point I was making. :wink2:
     
  15. bellesotico

    bellesotico BOXstar

    Re: what would you do


    Ok, I understand now. It's not always easy to find the angle in posts as there is no intonation. I brought up the Socratic method to place emphasis on the level of my study. I guess I missed that you were employing this in your questions because it seemed you were seeking definitive answers as opposed to those whose purpose is to encourage deeper thought on the subject. I'm sorry I misunderstood your intent.

    I would enjoy further conversation as well. =)

    Belle
     
  16. Solidarity413

    Solidarity413 New Member

    Re: what would you do


    I'm jumping in this thread late, mainly because I'd get heated in here so I'm staying away. But this remark has always puzzled me. How am I not to assume someone with the rebel flag is anything but a racist? This is a serious question so flame if you want but please make an attempt at a answer. I've always been curious.
     
  17. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Re: what would you do

    The flag to many represents the independence and self determination that was the point of the whole mess we call the Civil war. Most nowadays think of it as the war to free the slaves, but it was far from that. It was not until late in the war that the thought even became popular. There were many slave owners in the north that had to be forced to free their slaves.

    And many "slaves" in the north were not from Africa, but instead were white. These served on with their servitude long after the slaves were released.

    The idea of preserving the union at all costs is what prompted Lincoln to do many things as President that many people to this day do not have a clue.

    I find it very interesting to note that when discussing slavery, no one wants to talk about who actually enslaved the people to begin with, so that the white man could ship them to the rest of the world. They were not racist, they were enslaving people of their own race, for money. Or power.

    But I digress.

    The Stars and Bars existed in various forms before the war, and had nothing to do with race. But as impossible as it is to unring a bell, so it is impossible to undo what you have learned.

    One last item that you might also not think about.

    After the Army of Northern Aggression raped, burned, and plundered its way through the south, it became a badge of pride for those in the south to flaunt their flag as a sign of silent rebellion to the victors of the "war", and as such it is still used to this day. Youthful rebellion against authority.

    d
     
  18. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    Re: what would you do

    Very interesting reading, thanks Danny.
     
  19. pickup

    pickup Well-Known Member

    Re: what would you do

    Remember while the colonies won the war against england , they were still individuals entities. When the united states was officially formed a few years later, the constitution gave the federal government explicit powers and any other powers were reserved for the states. Of course we know what happened. For example jefferson bought "the louisiana purchase" from Napolean even though there was no authorization for the federal government to do so. Jefferson was an advocate of state's rights and he must have ideologically struggled with this but it was too good of a deal to pass.

    The noose slowly tightened as the federal government assumed more power
    and the southern states wanted out so that they could continue their cherised ways which included slavery. They tried to get out of the union but obviously it didn't work out the way they wanted

    In my opinion, once the south was defeated, the federal government just got more and more powerful. Look at what we have today, the federal government dictating mandates to states and if they don't comply, they don't get federal money(seat belt laws for example):money that the state paid to the federal government . What was once a mechanism (a servant) to protect the interests of the states became they're master.

    Remember the case of Terry Schiavo (the comatose woman in florida) it was a state issue and people appealed to the feds and george bush replied my hands are tied. As a result, many people were begging to have the federal government supercede the states in this and similar issues. I don't know what the status of such cases is now but I wouldn't be suprised if the feds have more control over stuff like this.

    Obviously simplistic posting, I gotta get out for work soon but you get my drift.

    By the way, I am not condoning slavery, but there were other issues at work as well,. Obviously slavery was a core part of some of these issues.
     
  20. bellesotico

    bellesotico BOXstar

    Re: what would you do

    Well stated Danny.
    It is interesting how many people believe the Civil War was fought to free the slaves. The Civil War was the result of a heated debate over states rights. Think John C. Calhoun, the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions (1798) with regard to state interposition, and the issue of nullification. In a nutshell, there were serious arguments that the federal government should not be allowed to execute law within the state. The issue of slavery was economical. The South's economy relied heavily on slavery, and the belief was that it's dissolution would cause tyranny.