22.3 Questions

[steeltoe]

Steel 22.3 language some of the sloppiest language written. Clearly a rush job. There is another version of the contract few people see. It lists the intent behind the language written. It shows what those who wrote the contract intended when they did so. Based on panel cases and application I have seen I believe the intent was to offer new jobs to part timers first and then allow the job to be bid to all when vacated. Reading through this thread though it appears other parts of the country either intrepeted differently or they have local language that has a different spin.

Tieguy, thanks for your input. where can someone take a look at this part of the contract?

 

[dunderchief]

In this case the intent and the language are clear...New 22.3 jobs are to be awarded to part-timers first. In our local we have created many, many 22.3 jobs. Every new job is most available to the most senior p-ter first. When a 22.3 job is vacated, it comes open to full timers first.

If you are denied a new 22.3 job as a part timer because a full timer has been awarded the bid, I would encourage you to grieve your case.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Man this is crazy. It should be the same every where. Why is it part-timers bid first in one area and full-timers first in others? LOL! In my opinion it should be part-timers first because if the purpose of creating the jobs is to give part-timers full-time work then they should bid first because in some cases the drivers that move to 22.3 jobs are never replaced. If it wasn't for that scenario then I'd be in favor of full-timers bidding first.

 

[tieguy]

22.3 jobs are designed for part-timers to become full-timers. The only full-time person eligible to bid on a 22-3 is a veteran with more than 20 years with the company. At least that is how it is done in the Desert Mountain District.

You are right in that 22.3 does seem to indicate that part timers will fill new openings.

Where I believe the language gets vague is where it says part timers shall be selected in accordance with the procedures of the applicable supplement , rider or addendum. (paraphrased) This language in my opinion seems to allow the local supplements , riders and addendums the authority to superceed national language. Some of the posts here seem to indicate that is happening around the country.

In either case if a 22.3 job is filled by a full timer then the part timer will probably end up getting a full time job that is vacated. The problem with this scenario is a full timer fills the new job. The company eliminates the old job and the original intent of converting 10,000 part timers to full time never takes place. If part timers fill first then the 10,000 part timers are clearly converted to full time status which I believe to be the intent. The original contract pages containing the intent are not generally out for viewing and usually referenced during panel hearings as needed.

I'm definitely no labor guy and this is just my humble opinion for what its worth.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

In either case if a 22.3 job is filled by a full timer then the part timer will probably end up getting a full time job that is vacated. The problem with this scenario is a full timer fills the new job. The company eliminates the old job and the original intent of converting 10,000 part timers to full time never takes place. If part timers fill first then the 10,000 part timers are clearly converted to full time status which I believe to be the intent. The original contract pages containing the intent are not generally out for viewing and usually referenced during panel hearings as needed.

Ditto! That's basically what I just said but it sounded better when you explained it. LOL

 

[steeltoe]

The whole thing irritates me. I am thinking of the guys, (and I know there are few of them) that can not pass the DOT medical. These guys will never have the opportunity to go full-time, at least in my building, it looks like. I am going to state my case and go from there. By the way, I know of one such person in my building. He can never drive a commercial vehicle, but he can unload and load a truck with the best of them.

 

[HazMatMan]

My biggest arguement is why are 22.3 top rates lower than a regular full-time employee.. ???? I am 22.3 full-time INSIDE, no 4 hours inside, 4 hours outside. I put my name on the list when the jobs first became available, and 2 years later I got a full-time inside job..In the mean time, a part-timer who worked 30 full-time days in a 60 day period (for whatever reason) got to be full-time and now that same person's top rate right now is about $6.00 more per hour (where's the justice??) So I did things by the book, and he so called 'SNEAKS IN" because someone was not paying attention and I get screwed..And yes, I knew the consequences of taking a 22.3 job as far as pay rate. I did not want to go package driving...

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

My biggest arguement is why are 22.3 top rates lower than a regular full-time employee.. ???? I am 22.3 full-time INSIDE, no 4 hours inside, 4 hours outside. I put my name on the list when the jobs first became available, and 2 years later I got a full-time inside job..In the mean time, a part-timer who worked 30 full-time days in a 60 day period (for whatever reason) got to be full-time and now that same person's top rate right now is about $6.00 more per hour (where's the justice??) So I did things by the book, and he so called 'SNEAKS IN" because someone was not paying attention and I get screwed..And yes, I knew the consequences of taking a 22.3 job as far as pay rate. I did not want to go package driving...

One of our new combo jobs is going to be preload/customer counter. Drivers will go from $27/hr to $21/hr. If all the drivers turn it down the part-timer that will most likely take it will start at $21/hr also because they already make more than that now. But at lest they'll be full-time so they won't really be taking a pay cut.

 

[HazMatMan]

One of our new combo jobs is going to be preload/customer counter. Drivers will go from $27/hr to $21/hr. If all the drivers turn it down the part-timer that will most likely take it will start at $21/hr also because they already make more than that now. But at lest they'll be full-time so they won't really be taking a pay cut.

"But at least they'll be full time now"........Ahhh, the quote of the decade, spoken to me by Union Reps and Labor Relations Reps alike....Asking me why was I bitching for?? (Your full time now) Telling me the difference in pay is only like 5 thousand a year (ONLY) I kid you not, that was said to me...But I learned not to bitch about it anymore, except here now I haven't bitched in a while....$1.00 raise Aug 1st.. What about you guys??? Plus cost of living adjustment again (pretty sure)

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

"But at least they'll be full time now"........Ahhh, the quote of the decade, spoken to me by Union Reps and Labor Relations Reps alike....Asking me why was I bitching for?? (Your full time now) Telling me the difference in pay is only like 5 thousand a year (ONLY) I kid you not, that was said to me...But I learned not to bitch about it anymore, except here now I haven't bitched in a while....$1.00 raise Aug 1st.. What about you guys??? Plus cost of living adjustment again (pretty sure)

For drivers it's about 5 thousand a year but for a part-timer that is going from working 4.5 hours a day at over $21.00/hr to 8 hours a day at $21/hr it is actually a pay raise because they will be working twice as many hours. So, even though they lose a couple of dollars an hour they are still comming out ahead at $21/hr because they'll get 8 hours. Plus..the 22.3 job in question is all clerical/customer counter work. It doesn't get much easier than that. So what was your situation? What was your starting wage when you took the 22.3 and was it higher or lower than what your part-time wage was?

 

[HazMatMan]

I believe it was 16.75 an hour, but I was red circled for 2 years, which meant no raises, even the contractual ones on Aug 1st I did not get.. went full time July 21st, 2001, 9 days later Aug 1st no raise (unbelievable) Aug 1st 2002 no raise. 2 years after being full time (July 21st) I think I jumped to like 18 and change, then 9 days later(Aug 1st) I got the yearly raise. right now am at 21.62 an hour after 19 years. Had I stayed part time i'd be making 22.99 an hour. Hey I know I work more hours as a full-timer and am getting full-time pension credits now, just thought the pay rate should have been higher. (don't we all?)

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I believe it was 16.75 an hour, but I was red circled for 2 years, which meant no raises, even the contractual ones on Aug 1st I did not get.. went full time July 21st, 2001, 9 days later Aug 1st no raise (unbelievable) Aug 1st 2002 no raise. 2 years after being full time (July 21st) I think I jumped to like 18 and change, then 9 days later(Aug 1st) I got the yearly raise. right now am at 21.62 an hour after 19 years. Had I stayed part time i'd be making 22.99 an hour. Hey I know I work more hours as a full-timer and am getting full-time pension credits now, just thought the pay rate should have been higher. (don't we all?)

Yeah but you have to admit you have a pretty good gig. You make more an hour than the national average (excluding pro athletes of course) which is around $17.50/hr. I make $16.32/hr on reload so I'd be red circled there for two years like you were. I don't even have a remote chance at landing our 22.3. It would be sweet though. What sucks is that the person that will most likely win the bid, if all the drivers pass it up, doesn't even need the job. We have people on preload that have medical conditions that keep them from being able to drive. Granted...they could be working other jobs outside of UPS but a 22.3 is perfect from them and they probably won't even get it. If the driver's all pass it up an old timer that's been working part-time for almmost 30 years will grab it just becuase "they can."

 

[THISdriverDUDE]

I am a driver and I think we deserve more than the 22.3 guys. Where I work all the 22.3 jobs are incredibly easy. I would gladly take a 22.3 job for less money... But the wait for 22.3 around here is over 10 years. takes about a year to become a driver. Driver is the hardest job I've ever done. I've done all the inside jobs and they're not very hard in comparison.

 

[browniehound]

Here is my understanding of 22.3 jobs as I was one of the first ones to have one back in early 2000. The company was actually 2 years late (per the contract) in creating these jobs and was forced (through an arbitraitor) to back-pay and pension contributions.

I was part-time. I bid and got a air-hub job. When that happened I got a full-time seniority date (my seniority date actually benifited from the arbitraitor becuase it was changed to when the full-time job should have been created, August 1 1998). Now as a full-time employee , at the annual bid I can bid on any full-time position. Doesn't matter if its package car or 22.3. Full-time is full-time where I work.

It appears most drivers stay driving and most inside 22.3 employees stay inside. A few attempt driving but most fail from my observations.

Also, where I'm from the 22.3 and full-time driving jobs are bid at the same time from the same full-time seniority list.

I hope I was clear in my post, as Tie pointed out it is probably the most ambiquous lanquage in the contract.

 

[HazMatMan]

I am a driver and I think we deserve more than the 22.3 guys. Where I work all the 22.3 jobs are incredibly easy. I would gladly take a 22.3 job for less money... But the wait for 22.3 around here is over 10 years. takes about a year to become a driver. Driver is the hardest job I've ever done. I've done all the inside jobs and they're not very hard in comparison.

Can't you apply for a clerk position?? make the same money..Still don't understand this 22.3 situation in your area..No drivers ever applied for 22.3 positions in my area..

 

[brownrodster]

Can't you apply for a clerk position?? make the same money..Still don't understand this 22.3 situation in your area..No drivers ever applied for 22.3 positions in my area..

I just registered. That was my post above about rather being 22.3 than FT driver.

In my area only PT bid on 22.3 jobs. FT can only get them if no PT want it. And a FT clerk does not deserve the wage a driver gets. Clerking is too easy.

 

[bear123]

It is the same way in my building as well, and when I went to see my parents in Memphis Tennessee, I spoke with the driver who picks up everyday from my step dad's business and he told me the 22.3 jobs are bid the same way as they are here, and where you are.

Yes it sucks thats how it is, and what will happen most of the time is that very junior package car drivers will take the easy/easy 22.3 jobs and completely shaft a part timer whose been waiting for years for a full time job but can't physically handle package driving or they just plain ol don't want to do it. Have fun working till your 80 like Mr. Peters.

The union will say "well its like that because thats how it is" or "its designed that way to give the old timers a way out before they retire"

bull****. absolute bull****. The senior drivers have it so good comparitively and they make 70-80k a year. So they can't AFFORD to go to a 22.3 job, thats a huge paycut going from 80k to around 40k a year. The junior guys aren't a top rate yet, and its an easy way out of driving to make the same money to push a broom and then be a clerk or carwasher. I'd make that move myself. Meanwhile, the part timers in the clerk/carwash/porter jobs will get sent back to preload or reload and just be told "sorry, thats how it is." Exactly what happened to all of our air drivers, they all got shafted took a big paycut and sent back down to preload or reload. You won't find a 22.3 guy doing the hard jobs like the sort aisle or unload though. The union will make a 45-50 year old worker get banished back to those jobs first.

Now that you know how screwed you are with those jobs as a part timer, and how the company is rumored to move our gurantee back to 3 hours a shift and probably no pay raise AGAIN - when do you start to stop barking and start biting? I'm a steward and I hear a lot of crying, but when I say go to the union meetings, raise hell get involved - they won't show. The full timers may have complete control of us in the work place, but our vote still counts as much as theirs.

Get involved, get others involved. The part timers could basically RUN this union but we allow ourselves to get **** on left and right.

You ready to go out there and strike for the full timers though because they weren't far sighted enough to learn from the airline industry, steel industry and now auto industry? As far as I am concerned, I don't feel sorry for the guys who have relied 100% on central states since DAY 1 and got screwed. They're complete fools to rely on a company and/or a union with their retirement fund.

Hey Fredless and et al...Yes full timers (drivers and feeders) get a shot of 22.3 jobs but what you didn't mention is that if they do that, they have to take a 5.00 pay cut. Drivers who would actually take art.22 are the ones who are gettng ready to retire anf/or physcally cant do the job. They will not mind taking a pay cut; especially is the spouse is working which would offset the pay decrease.

What I am saying is where I come from --Earth City hub--very few drivers have taken an art. 22 job because of the pay cut. The pay decrease was set up for that reason, so drivers cant take jobs before part timers. Also center manager's were scared to death that there would be a mass exodus of drivers going inside which would have meant the center manager's would have to train a whole new crop of dirvers. Letting drivers come inside with their pay intact would defeat the whole purpose of why art. 22 jobs were created--for people who cant or dont want to drive for a living but still be full time and get all of the amenities that go with it.

 

[bear123]

I am a driver and I think we deserve more than the 22.3 guys. Where I work all the 22.3 jobs are incredibly easy. I would gladly take a 22.3 job for less money... But the wait for 22.3 around here is over 10 years. takes about a year to become a driver. Driver is the hardest job I've ever done. I've done all the inside jobs and they're not very hard in comparison.

Contrary to what you read or think, Art 22 jobs are not easy. They way it is set up is you have a hard job and a less physical one. When I signed up it was car wash first and then primary. Most of the jobs are set up that way. I gurantee you the company will not give away two easy jobs just out of spite.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Contrary to what you read or think, Art 22 jobs are not easy. They way it is set up is you have a hard job and a less physical one. When I signed up it was car wash first and then primary. Most of the jobs are set up that way. I gurantee you the company will not give away two easy jobs just out of spite.

One of our new 22.3s is preload clerk/customer counter. That is easy/easy. When I worked at a hub before there were people there with smalls/shifter, clerk/smalls, customer counter/international auditor, and other such easy/easy jobs. Allot of the easy/hard jobs were Air Driving at night picking up letter boxes and on calls and then working the load on the midnight shift.

 

[steeltoe]

I have agree with the premis that all 22.3 inside jobs should be paid less than driving. The main reason I beleive this is due to the fact that you have more to worry about on the road as far as accidents, etc.

As far as being redcircled, could someone enlighten me on the language. As I understand it, if a partimer with 20 years is making roughly $23.00 per hour, he would be redcircled at his current rate until the top pay of the 22.3 classification exceeded his current rate. I understand the language to be that a part-timer can never loose his higher hourly rate by taking a full-time job. On the pther hand, if a drver changes classafiction to 22.3 he will immediately move down to the top rate, which I beleive now to be $21.50 per hour. Am I on the right page?