Doctors excuse

[22.34life]

I'm right here dawg! I'm the guy showing up everyday, busting my ass and doing my job. TC said they had some debilitating injury/illness that requires occasional random days off. I would love to have said ace up my sleeve. Cubs are playing the Reds at Great American on a Wednesday night, and my buddy scored some tixs. Sweet. Just call in my random injury/illness night. Oh wait, I can't.

look some people do abuse the system but their are people with legit medical problems and you need to understand this.in your previous post you talked about people who use fmla at ups and stil work there day job,well excuse them for having to make a living and feed the kids and pay there bills, if ups is going to remain a p/t job then people who work p/t cant risk there primary source of income for ups.so if i need benifits and ups offers them but my day job pays my bills who do you think takes priority,no brainer right.im not saying this is right or fair but it is a fact and it is something that ups has caused themselfs.the p/t system is a joke,times have changed but ups has not bottom line.

 

[brownIEman]

look some people do abuse the system but their are people with legit medical problems and you need to understand this.in your previous post you talked about people who use fmla at ups and stil work there day job,well excuse them for having to make a living and feed the kids and pay there bills, if ups is going to remain a p/t job then people who work p/t cant risk there primary source of income for ups.so if i need benifits and ups offers them but my day job pays my bills who do you think takes priority,no brainer right.im not saying this is right or fair but it is a fact and it is something that ups has caused themselfs.the p/t system is a joke,times have changed but ups has not bottom line.

Are you serious?!? It's UPS fault for providing medical benefits and not a full time job that pays the bills? Why would it not be your day job employers fault for not providing medical coverage? I work in a preload that has about 150 employees. I cannot run an 8 hour sort span due to the realities of the distribution network, so I can't go to 75 full time jobs. How the heck do you suggest I provide 150 or even 75 full time jobs when I do not have that work? We have a ton of part timers because we have a ton of part time work. It is a fantastic job for students, which was really always the idea, it is not such a great career for family providers, I get that, but it was never really intended to be. Just because you may think it should be, that is not really UPS' fault.

It is all UPS fault for providing medical benefits to a part time work force. Great. Well, it may gratify you to know UPS leadership agrees with you, which is why they are working to do away with medical benefits for part timers. If I were you I would encourage the folks with a day job to start working on those employers to provide them.

Your post as I see it is basically trying to justify people who abuse the FMLA system. So I just have to ask again, are you serious?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

...which is why they are working to do away with medical benefits for part timers...

Would this be offset by a significant pay raise?

 

[brownIEman]

I've quoted the three paragraphs I think are wrong, wrong, wrong.

In some states FMLA is also state law, and if state law is more generous, then UPS must follow the more generous state version.
- - - -
60% of employees on intermittent FMLA leave? That can't be right. Add a comparable percent on regular FMLA leave and you probably have over 100% of employees FMLA eligible!!! I doubt 60% even know about FMLA, let alone have submitted the paperwork.
- - - -
Ask HR and Loss Prevention about the various legal ways UPS has to uncover and prosecute fraud and abuse of FMLA. They can always check with the doctor to verify appointments were kept, or ask every few months for recertification by the doctor of the ongoing medical need for leave. All they can't do is learn the private medical details of the employee.

And remember, FMLA leave, as such, is UNPAID leave. There's little incentive to abuse the system to begin with because you don't get any money; and you forfeit your vacations, sick days, and option days when leave is taken. It's not like fraudulently obtaining Welfare, Food Stamps, Unemployment Benefits or other government programs that pay you actual piles of cash.

JonFrum,
you are correct that where state law is more generous, that would also have to be followed, but again, not one second more. I did not mention state law, but I believe it was sort of implied and in any case the remainder of my statement on that topic stands, IMO.

I share your incredulity about the 60% number. It comes from a meeting I attended with HR where FMLA was discussed and a smaller operation with something like 23 employees has around 15 on FMLA I will see if I can get confirmation on those numbers, but I do remember it was somewhere higher than 50% which is just crazy, and a nightmare to try and run an operation with. I had a tough time believing it. I can only surmise someone found a small town doc in the box as optimus would say

Your suggestions about discovery of fraud remind me of many of the directives I get from UPS corporate execs. They sound great on paper, but the real world application of them is pretty much impossible. Call a doctor to verify an appointment was kept? How do I know which intermittent FMLA is for appointments? The paperwork I get just says they have x number of days per week or month, it does not tell me what it is for. Once approved, they can just call in saying I am using an FMLA day. OK, what doctor do I call at that point, and what do I ask? Take the migraine example I gave. That has nothing to do with an appointment, I just have a headache, so I am not coming to work Where do I go with that? If I track his usage for a year, who do I ask "Hey, medically speaking, why is this guy getting 95% of his migraines on a Friday or a Monday?" What does that prove? Who is going to say, yeah that is highly unlikely, the dude is likely abusing the system? And if they did, what in any of that would be actionable? I will tell you, nothing.

 

[brownIEman]

Would this be offset by a significant pay raise?

Was it in the last contract when coverage moved to starting after one year with family coverage not until 18 mos?

Its the same answer to both questions

 

[brownIEman]

This thread has depressed me. I get that there are legitimate users of FMLA, and I do have compassion for them. Optimus and I have mentioned the reality of people who abuse the system. Responses have either been skepticism for the idea that anyone would or could abuse the system to well, sure there are people who abuse the system, but if they do so it is really UPS' fault.

 

[cachsux]

JonFrum,
you are correct that where state law is more generous, that would also have to be followed, but again, not one second more. I did not mention state law, but I believe it was sort of implied and in any case the remainder of my statement on that topic stands, IMO.

Boy, you`re pretty rigid on that " not one second more" stance. How would it help you out if your employees took the same and applied it to your operation?


I share your incredulity about the 60% number. It comes from a meeting I attended with HR where FMLA was discussed and a smaller operation with something like 23 employees has around 15 on FMLA I will see if I can get confirmation on those numbers, but I do remember it was somewhere higher than 50% which is just crazy, and a nightmare to try and run an operation with. I had a tough time believing it. I can only surmise someone found a small town doc in the box as optimus would say

As opposed to the Doc in a Pocket that UPS uses to deny injured employees proper medical (not in UPS` benefit) diagnosis?

Your suggestions about discovery of fraud remind me of many of the directives I get from UPS corporate execs. They sound great on paper, but the real world application of them is pretty much impossible. Call a doctor to verify an appointment was kept? How do I know which intermittent FMLA is for appointments? The paperwork I get just says they have x number of days per week or month, it does not tell me what it is for. Once approved, they can just call in saying I am using an FMLA day. OK, what doctor do I call at that point, and what do I ask? Take the migraine example I gave. That has nothing to do with an appointment, I just have a headache, so I am not coming to work Where do I go with that? If I track his usage for a year, who do I ask "Hey, medically speaking, why is this guy getting 95% of his migraines on a Friday or a Monday?" What does that prove? Who is going to say, yeah that is highly unlikely, the dude is likely abusing the system? And if they did, what in any of that would be actionable? I will tell you, nothing.

What you are not realizing is you are frustrating yourself over something that it is not your place to try and control. It`s not your job to wonder if the reason for FMLA is valid. It`s not yours to follow up on Dr. appointments. It`s not yours to determine what day is convenient for UPS for someone to be absent. Your grievances with the policy should be taken up with the H.R. dept as they are the ones approving it. Let them do all the dirty work and have all the frustrations. If you cannot get operations complete because you`re short people then let your management team know and know why and let them solve the FMLA induced problem.

 

[brownIEman]

Boy, you`re pretty rigid on that " not one second more" stance. How would it help you out if your employees took the same and applied it to your operation?

I am not really sure what you mean. If you mean how would it be if my employees took the approach of I work for the time you pay me and not one second more and applied it to my operation, I would say most if not all do, and I am perfectly fine with that. That is how it is supposed to work. I really don't get your stance on this one.

As opposed to the Doc in a Pocket that UPS uses to deny injured employees proper medical (not in UPS` benefit) diagnosis?

I suppose. UPS can ask you to see there doc first because they pay for it completely. Nothing stops you from seeing your own, which for most UPS employees UPS will wind up paying for as well. Again, not really sure what your point is.

What you are not realizing is you are frustrating yourself over something that it is not your place to try and control. It`s not your job to wonder if the reason for FMLA is valid. It`s not yours to follow up on Dr. appointments. It`s not yours to determine what day is convenient for UPS for someone to be absent. Your grievances with the policy should be taken up with the H.R. dept as they are the ones approving it. Let them do all the dirty work and have all the frustrations. If you cannot get operations complete because you`re short people then let your management team know and know why and let them solve the FMLA induced problem.

I stated in my first post on this thread that it is not my place to try and determine who is abusing FMLA and who has legitimate issues. What you are not getting is that I am part of the management team that has to deal with getting the operation complete. I have already spelled out how we deal with the FMLA issue, the only reasonable way it can be. You seem to be suggesting that anyone, anytime, for as much time as they choose should just be allowed to beg off work with no consequences what so ever. Thanks for the suggestion, it has been tried and does not work.

My greatest frustration is that the abusers are helping to create the environment that requires rigid adherence to the letter of the law, and that could negatively impact people with legitimate issues, and that is unfair.

 

[cachsux]

I stated in my first post on this thread that it is not my place to try and determine who is abusing FMLA and who has legitimate issues. What you are not getting is that I am part of the management team that has to deal with getting the operation complete. I have already spelled out how we deal with the FMLA issue, the only reasonable way it can be. You seem to be suggesting that anyone, anytime, for as much time as they choose should just be allowed to beg off work with no consequences what so ever. Thanks for the suggestion, it has been tried and does not work.

My greatest frustration is that the abusers are helping to create the environment that requires rigid adherence to the letter of the law, and that could negatively impact people with legitimate issues, and that is unfair.

We used to have very few people who were aware of or used FMLA before the last 6-7 years or so. We had folks with legitimate reasons for needing a day off and we had a reasonable management team who helped them out. The management regime changed and their attitude was to not help out their employees, themselves included, and took a policy of "If you have such a need then you should go on FMLA". Their train of thought was it would prevent people from taking time off because it would eat into their paid time available. They struck out big time as now they have found it was not a deterrence and only made more people aware of what FMLA is. Are there abusers? Absolutely. Did some members of management bring this grief onto themselves and others? Absolutely.

I don`t disagree with your frustration. I just think the hard line stance you feel forced into will only be reciprocated by those who now feel they also have to take a hard line stance.

 

[toonertoo]

In the OLD ups my team would have worked with me. In the new UPS they tried to tell me they would but I could not trust them, and it was not them as people, it was the higher up who makes all the calls, I could not chance it, I had to help my husband get to his appointments, on time every time, and I needed to protect myself. So protect yourself when you can, if it gets approved who are we to judge? Its not like it is paid time off, you pay dearly by loss of pay and vacations. Not like we get any personal or sick days or anything. Here.

 

[22.34life]

Are you serious?!? It's UPS fault for providing medical benefits and not a full time job that pays the bills? Why would it not be your day job employers fault for not providing medical coverage? I work in a preload that has about 150 employees. I cannot run an 8 hour sort span due to the realities of the distribution network, so I can't go to 75 full time jobs. How the heck do you suggest I provide 150 or even 75 full time jobs when I do not have that work? We have a ton of part timers because we have a ton of part time work. It is a fantastic job for students, which was really always the idea, it is not such a great career for family providers, I get that, but it was never really intended to be. Just because you may think it should be, that is not really UPS' fault.

It is all UPS fault for providing medical benefits to a part time work force. Great. Well, it may gratify you to know UPS leadership agrees with you, which is why they are working to do away with medical benefits for part timers. If I were you I would encourage the folks with a day job to start working on those employers to provide them.

Your post as I see it is basically trying to justify people who abuse the FMLA system. So I just have to ask again, are you serious?

oh yea this job is for students right,dont see many students at my hub,are you serious?the few people that are students get nothing but problems from ups when they need to come in late for a class or leave early for school reasons.this is supposed to be a job for students but not many of them at ups at least where im at and the ones that are here ups wont work with them.its not for making a living because it was not intended for that,so who is this job really for anymore,even a student needs more than 150 bucks a week to live,TIMES HAVE CHANGED.ups could work it to make this place more friend/t if it wanted but they dont want to.if you are going to have a p/t place at least have some friend/t oppurtunity ,now thats aLMOST all gone too.this is my point ups crys all the time my people wont come to work ,my people wont work hard,my people dont give a damb,well look at who you hire.take away the benefits away from p/t people and that wont make it better only worse.since ups made the p/t wait a year for benefits and 18 months to add dependents the new hires have gone even more down hill.the p/T system is a relic form a different time that doesnt work anymore.

 

[brownIEman]

oh yea this job is for students right,dont see many students at my hub,are you serious?the few people that are students get nothing but problems from ups when they need to come in late for a class or leave early for school reasons.this is supposed to be a job for students but not many of them at ups at least where im at and the ones that are here ups wont work with them.its not for making a living because it was not intended for that,so who is this job really for anymore,even a student needs more than 150 bucks a week to live,TIMES HAVE CHANGED.ups could work it to make this place more friend/t if it wanted but they dont want to.if you are going to have a p/t place at least have some friend/t oppurtunity ,now thats aLMOST all gone too.this is my point ups crys all the time my people wont come to work ,my people wont work hard,my people dont give a damb,well look at who you hire.take away the benefits away from p/t people and that wont make it better only worse.since ups made the p/t wait a year for benefits and 18 months to add dependents the new hires have gone even more down hill.the p/T system is a relic form a different time that doesnt work anymore.

You are correct, there are fewer students in the part time operations now than there used to be. There are more people working for UPS only for the benefits.
Ironically, those people often make it harder for me in my operation to be flexible with the students. Obviously, they want as little time as possible actually working. So any time I give flexibility to a student, they grieve it. I think the grievances have no merit, but I do not call all the shots.
If I did call all the shots, I would eliminate medical bene's for all PT, increase their starting pay to more than twice minimum wage like it used to be and get the union on board with supporting flexibility for students. I would also look for legitimate full time combinations where practicable, not just make work second shifts after a sort is done that does not have a sort that follows.

Sadly, the one suggestion of mine I think UPS will actually pursue is getting rid of medical for PT.

 

[useless_union]

Sadly, the one suggestion of mine I think UPS will actually pursue is getting rid of medical for PT.

Lower starting wage and get rid of medical

 

[Just Lurking]

You are correct, there are fewer students in the part time operations now than there used to be. There are more people working for UPS only for the benefits.
Ironically, those people often make it harder for me in my operation to be flexible with the students. Obviously, they want as little time as possible actually working. So any time I give flexibility to a student, they grieve it. I think the grievances have no merit, but I do not call all the shots.
If I did call all the shots, I would eliminate medical bene's for all PT, increase their starting pay to more than twice minimum wage like it used to be and get the union on board with supporting flexibility for students. I would also look for legitimate full time combinations where practicable, not just make work second shifts after a sort is done that does not have a sort that follows.

Sadly, the one suggestion of mine I think UPS will actually pursue is getting rid of medical for PT.

Seniority has been always been the right to work. The only time I can think of is the week between Christmas and New Years that CBA states time off must be seniority

 

[cachsux]

Seniority has been always been the right to work. The only time I can think of is the week between Christmas and New Years that CBA states time off must be seniority

In response to your post, if I understand it correctly, seniority prevails in all situations. The right to go as well as the right to stay. The right to take time off as well as the right to sign up for extra work.

 

[22.34life]

You are correct, there are fewer students in the part time operations now than there used to be. There are more people working for UPS only for the benefits.
Ironically, those people often make it harder for me in my operation to be flexible with the students. Obviously, they want as little time as possible actually working. So any time I give flexibility to a student, they grieve it. I think the grievances have no merit, but I do not call all the shots.
If I did call all the shots, I would eliminate medical bene's for all PT, increase their starting pay to more than twice minimum wage like it used to be and get the union on board with supporting flexibility for students. I would also look for legitimate full time combinations where practicable, not just make work second shifts after a sort is done that does not have a sort that follows.

Sadly, the one suggestion of mine I think UPS will actually pursue is getting rid of medical for PT.

this is an intelligent post,at least you look at it from different perspectives.whether ups wants to or not the p/t system will need major overhauling soon or the company will go downhill like a freight train.if ups takes away benefits from p/t it will really take the new hires to the bottom of the barrell,it would be a huge mistake.there are several things that are leading to the decline in quality of new hires,one is the lack of increase in starting pay,two is the lack of hours and lack of friend/t oppurtunity,three is the lack of benefits for 12 months and adding children 18 months,and finally the push to do more work in less time pushing them harder than ever before.sometimes i look around and talk to some of the newhires and i wonder what hr person would hire these people but then i have to remember that beggers cant be chosers.

 

[JonFrum]

. . . Your suggestions about discovery of fraud remind me of many of the directives I get from UPS corporate execs. They sound great on paper, but the real world application of them is pretty much impossible. Call a doctor to verify an appointment was kept? How do I know which intermittent FMLA is for appointments? The paperwork I get just says they have x number of days per week or month, it does not tell me what it is for. Once approved, they can just call in saying I am using an FMLA day. OK, what doctor do I call at that point, and what do I ask? Take the migraine example I gave. That has nothing to do with an appointment, I just have a headache, so I am not coming to work Where do I go with that? If I track his usage for a year, who do I ask "Hey, medically speaking, why is this guy getting 95% of his migraines on a Friday or a Monday?" What does that prove? Who is going to say, yeah that is highly unlikely, the dude is likely abusing the system? And if they did, what in any of that would be actionable? I will tell you, nothing.

You apparently don't know much about FMLA proceedures. Read here . . .
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/

Start with this Q & A . . .
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/finalrule/NonMilitaryFAQs.pdf

The Law intentionally keeps people like you in the dark. The designated FMLA contact person at UPS is probably an HR person or a UPS nurse. They know the Law and handle the details. You are only on a 'Need to know" basis. They can contact the doctor; you can't. They have access to the restricted FMLA personnel files; you don't.

The appropriate HR person can contact the doctor who signed the certification whenever there is a question or a suspicion of fraud.

UPS can ask for a recertification every 30 days, if warranted.

UPS can ask for a recertification more often if the patient asks that leave be extended beyond whatever was originally agreed to.

UPS can ask for a Fitness for Duty exam after each absence if reasonably necessary.

Since UPS requires sick days, optional days, and vacation days to be used up along with FMLA days, the patient is taking days off that UPS has already contractually agreed to. The patient is just taking earned days off earlier than one would have expected.

If you worry that the FMLA patient is taking Mondays and Fridays off, couldn't they have done that anyway using regular sick days without FMLA, since sick days can be taken at the employee's discression? If vacation weeks are used, wouldn't the vacations have involved taking Mondays and Fridays off if they had been taken as normal vacation weeks without FMLA? There's very little oppurtunity for abuse here since no additional money is involved, and since the days off usually would have been taken off eventually anyway.

 

[Jones]

Seniority has been always been the right to work. The only time I can think of is the week between Christmas and New Years that CBA states time off must be seniority

Our supplement states specifically that voluntary time off must be offered in seniority order.

 

[brownIEman]

You apparently don't know much about FMLA proceedures. Read here . . .
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/

Start with this Q & A . . .
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/finalrule/NonMilitaryFAQs.pdf

The Law intentionally keeps people like you in the dark. The designated FMLA contact person at UPS is probably an HR person or a UPS nurse. They know the Law and handle the details. You are only on a 'Need to know" basis. They can contact the doctor; you can't. They have access to the restricted FMLA personnel files; you don't.

The appropriate HR person can contact the doctor who signed the certification whenever there is a question or a suspicion of fraud.

UPS can ask for a recertification every 30 days, if warranted.

UPS can ask for a recertification more often if the patient asks that leave be extended beyond whatever was originally agreed to.

UPS can ask for a Fitness for Duty exam after each absence if reasonably necessary.

I get all that, and do not disagree with it. I understand the chaos that could follow by having every front line supervisor calling doctors and looking for recerts and verification of FMLA, I understand the need for one point of contact in HR. It is necessary and good for people using the system legitimately. Unfortunately, it is also good for the abusers, as our one district HR nurse is not just sitting around waiting for the opportunity to follow up on suspected abuse. If someone is abusing the system to begin with, they have already gotten the buy in from their doctor, and the doctor is the one with final say on this when you really look at it.
You do seem to understand the letter of the FMLA rules quite well. You apparently do not know much about the real world application of them.

Since UPS requires sick days, optional days, and vacation days to be used up along with FMLA days, the patient is taking days off that UPS has already contractually agreed to. The patient is just taking earned days off earlier than one would have expected.

This is one way to look at it, they are just taking contractually provided days of earlier than expected. Another way to look at it, and another way it is used occasionally, is to get those contractually provided days out of seniority order. If I can allow 12 people a day to have a discretionary day or vacation day at a time, and Mr. Approved-for-2-days-a-week-for-migraines. wants the Friday before the memorial day weekend off as a discretionary, I will tell him sorry, 12 people with more seniority already have that day off. I of course realize he is going to have a migraine that day and will not be there anyway, along with his chums irritable bowels, manic depression and ingrown toenail. 'Course, I won't have to worry about steward JonFrum filling a grievance that day when I have to put my part time sups to work to get the job done (yes, this is after calling in drivers early), or will I?

If you worry that the FMLA patient is taking Mondays and Fridays off, couldn't they have done that anyway using regular sick days without FMLA, since sick days can be taken at the employee's discression? If vacation weeks are used, wouldn't the vacations have involved taking Mondays and Fridays off if they had been taken as normal vacation weeks without FMLA? There's very little oppurtunity for abuse here since no additional money is involved, and since the days off usually would have been taken off eventually anyway.

Yes, the abusers using FMLA to get 3 day weekends are the same ones who used to call in on fridays and mondays to get the 3 day weekends. The difference is, once they have used up all their allotted sick days, when they continued to call in, they were disciplined for it. No discipline can be issued for FMLA use. They are abusing this great system to get away with unexcused absences. You seem to be fine with that, or refuse to believe it is or could be happening. As I said earlier, I do not believe you know much about the way this law is actually being utilized in our operations.

 

[brownIEman]

Our supplement states specifically that voluntary time off must be offered in seniority order.

Hence, the just-here-for-the-benefits people make it nearly impossible to be flexible for the students. Which, IMHO, is one reason UPS is trying to do away with those people by doing away with the benefits.