It will be fine

Well-Known Member
Errrm, maybe, it’s just not clear to me machines are a better solution than actual human citizens exercising their Constitutional rights and electing their representatives.

Yes, there’s a fk-ton of important things to be deliberated and decided upon, which is why we elect representatives to ‘represent’ us.

There are major structural, political, and economic barriers to an ideal manifestation of that vision, but I don’t think the answer is ‘machines’.

I think it’s education and mobilization.

We get exactly the representation we deserve, mostly because we don’t (generally) participate.

Change that, and a lot of other things would change.

IMO.
How about an algorithm that gathers your policy preferences with a simple quiz that then casts your vote for you. You’d be free to retake the quiz anytime to update your thinking but wouldn’t have to bother every election. People are stupid and lazy, set it and forget it.
 

zubenelgenubi

I'm a star
Errrm, maybe, it’s just not clear to me machines are a better solution than actual human citizens exercising their Constitutional rights and electing their representatives.

Yes, there’s a fk-ton of important things to be deliberated and decided upon, which is why we elect representatives to ‘represent’ us.

There are major structural, political, and economic barriers to an ideal manifestation of that vision, but I don’t think the answer is ‘machines’.

I think it’s education and mobilization.

We get exactly the representation we deserve, mostly because we don’t (generally) participate.

Change that, and a lot of other things would change.

IMO.

I've met a lot of college aged people who didn't understand where the water from their faucets came from, or what happened to their poopies when they flushed them. These people are allowed to vote, but lack the basic understanding of the necessary functionings of a civilization. I think the point might be that with the massive amounts of information to consider, decision making at a certain level becomes beyond the ability of even the best educated, most intelligent people.

The system we have depends on people who lack basic understanding choosing people for jobs that they are hopelessly unqualified for. I don't know if machines are the answer, I did say it was out there. Better education couldn't hurt, but who decides what constitutes better education is anyone's guess. Knowing the basics about civics and how systems necessary for civilization operate are good starting points.

I always advocate for more decentralization, as that spreads out the burden of knowledge, allows for better autonomy, and more options for individuals. It keeps decision making more local, representatives more available and accountable to constituents, and should create more engagement among the citizenry. Clearly we all think there is something that needs to be fixed, I'm open to exploring options.
 
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zubenelgenubi

I'm a star
How about an algorithm that gathers your policy preferences with a simple quiz that then casts your vote for you. You’d be free to retake the quiz anytime to update your thinking but wouldn’t have to bother every election. People are stupid and lazy, set it and forget it.

That's a basic version of what the speaker from the ted talk I posted was talking about. In his ideal, people could choose to approve votes, adapt settings until you are happy with the decisions being made. Again, I understand the potential pitfalls of automation, and I don't know if this is the best solution, but worth discussing at least.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
I've met a lot of college aged people who didn't understand where the water from their faucets came from, or what happened to their poopies when they flushed them. These people are allowed to vote, but lack the basic understanding of the necessary functionings of a civilization. I think the point might be that with the massive amounts of information to consider, decision making at a certain level becomes beyond the ability of even the best educated, most intelligent people.

The system we have depends on people who lack basic understanding choosing people for jobs that they are hopelessly unqualified for. I don't know if machines are the answer, I did say it was out there. Better education couldn't hurt, but who decides what constitutes better education is anyone's guess. Knowing the basics about civics and how systems necessary for civilization operate are good starting points.

I always advocate for more decentralization, as that spreads out the burden of knowledge, allows for better autonomy, and more options for individuals. It keeps decision making more local, representatives more available to constituents, and should create more engagement among the citizenry. Clearly we all think there is something that needs to be fixed, I'm open to exploring options.

I don’t disagree.

I just think we’re talking about a system that we agree on some level is ‘broken’, and we’re discussing radical ways of fixing it.

What I’m saying is that money and power have corrupted that system.

It’s not that the system is broken, it’s that it’s been infected by money and greed.

Honestly, it’s been this way since the founding of this country.

The ‘common man’ was never really supposed to have very much say at all.

How old is this nation?

When did women get the ‘right’ to vote?

When did black people get the ‘right’ to vote?

We take things for granted today that simply didn’t exist 100 years ago.

It’s never not been the case that money and power control the levers in our system...it’s been a constant struggle since day one for the citizenry to assert its rightful power.

I don’t work for the President, or the Senate, or the House, or...

Sure couldn’t tell by looking at things, it seems they don’t work me or you either.

There’s a remedy for that:

The ballot box.
 

It will be fine

Well-Known Member
That's a basic version of what the speaker from the ted talk I posted was talking about. In his ideal, people could choose to approve votes, adapt settings until you are happy with the decisions being made. Again, I understand the potential pitfalls of automation, and I don't know if this is the best solution, but worth discussing at least.
I’d love to see it tried at a local level. Especially because it’s hard to find good local journalism these days. Voter turnout is so low results are skewed away from what the majority of citizens actually want. My town lives and dies by its reputation for good schools. We had a referendum a few years back to take out a new loan to update/expand some schools. We’d paid off the last one so it was a choice between lowering taxes $50/yr or $30/yr or something similarly inconsequential. Updating the schools passed by 7 votes, no way that vote should have been close, but old people without kids vote.
 

Serf

Well-Known Member
No such thing as Lib or Con, D or R anymore. Just our Holy Month in the USA & all the Corporations force feeding it to you.
 

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Mutineer

Well-Known Member
Fear is a huge factor in how people live their lives. I have been saying forever, and I've mentioned it on here as well, that conservatives seem to be fear based, while liberals are far less so. This research seems to support my thoughts.

I don't hear about many conservatives fear-mongering about global warming.
And even fewer conservative hoplophobes. The very definition of irrational fear.

Everybody is fearful of something. A very powerful motivator. With guilt falling not far behind.

Human beings evolved with these traits for very good reasons.

We have amazing brains. Spoiled only by a capacity for paranoia rivaling that of a rabbit.
 

LarryBird

Well-Known Member
I don't hear about many conservatives fear-mongering about global warming.
And even fewer conservative hoplophobes. The very definition of irrational fear.

Everybody is fearful of something. A very powerful motivator. With guilt falling not far behind.

Human beings evolved with these traits for very good reasons.

We have amazing brains. Spoiled only by a capacity for paranoia rivaling that of a rabbit.
No we hear about conservatives denying the science. Which, if the level of religion that pervades their politics is any indication, is totally par for the course, I guess.

Liberals and science-minded conservatives who want to do something about climate change before it's too late aren't fear mongering - they're trusting the scientists and trying to save our planet for future generations because that's not only the righteous thing to do, but the only sane decision to make. Pushing through and ignoring our species potential extinction or destruction of our coastlines at the very least, is against our very nature, meaning our deeply ingrained sense of self-preservation. Fight or flight.

Climate change is a danger we can't run from unfortunately, we've got to fight it with every tool in our technological arsenal - fighting in this case could also have fantastic economic expectations too. Going green will revitalize our infrastructure and provide new jobs and wealth for decades to come AND help revitalize our environment. Win :censored2:ing win. Period.

This shouldn't be a conservative or liberal issue, or an American issue - it is a human issue, a wildlife issue, a planetary issue.

If any political party is so anti-regulation that they can't see this, I really don't even know what to say. The fact that conservatives have let this become, or always considered this a political issue, is a testament to their stupidity - they are letting their selfish desires for preserving their wealth or their fossil fuel industry job color this, and that's about as vile as you can possibly be. Not to mention shortsighted, and unimaginative. Wealth and jobs will not be a problem when we're overhauling our entire energy system and infrastructure. It will be the single greatest windfall this country has had since the industrial revolution. But unlike the industrial revolution, it will start us on the road to environmental repair and revitalization, as opposed to the road to environmental catastrophe.

Recognize.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
No we hear about conservatives denying the science. Which, if the level of religion that pervades their politics is any indication, is totally par for the course, I guess.

Liberals and science-minded conservatives who want to do something about climate change before it's too late aren't fear mongering - they're trusting the scientists and trying to save our planet for future generations because that's not only the righteous thing to do, but the only sane decision to make. Pushing through and ignoring our species potential extinction or destruction of our coastlines at the very least, is against our very nature, meaning our deeply ingrained sense of self-preservation. Fight or flight.

Climate change is a danger we can't run from unfortunately, we've got to fight it with every tool in our technological arsenal - fighting in this case could also have fantastic economic expectations too. Going green will revitalize our infrastructure and provide new jobs and wealth for decades to come AND help revitalize our environment. Win :censored2:ing win. Period.

This shouldn't be a conservative or liberal issue, or an American issue - it is a human issue, a wildlife issue, a planetary issue.

If any political party is so anti-regulation that they can't see this, I really don't even know what to say. The fact that conservatives have let this become, or always considered this a political issue, is a testament to their stupidity - they are letting their selfish desires for preserving their wealth or their fossil fuel industry job color this, and that's about as vile as you can possibly be. Not to mention shortsighted, and unimaginative. Wealth and jobs will not be a problem when we're overhauling our entire energy system and infrastructure. It will be the single greatest windfall this country has had since the industrial revolution. But unlike the industrial revolution, it will start us on the road to environmental repair and revitalization, as opposed to the road to environmental catastrophe.

Recognize.

You’re fairly new to this forum, just a heads up...

If you want nuanced discussion, run away.

I’m on four other forums, BC consistently performs in the bottom in terms of actual discussion.

In the Current Events section of BC, there’s just monkeys throwing st at each other...go try the Union section of BC, it’s the same thing..Godspeed.

I appreciate your well-crafted posts and responses, and you should know it’s an absolute waste of time.

Do what you will, but just recognize that posting in Current Events is like pissing in the wind while standing on a moving airplane wing at 20,000 ft.

Your piss freezes immediately, comes back and hits you in the face, and you fall off the wing.

Was your post correct?

Doesn’t matter, you’re dead.
 

Mutineer

Well-Known Member
Recognize.

I recognize a scam when I see it. And the biggest scam of all is religion.

And so is global warming. And if it isn't, it is being presented EXACTLY as if it were a scam.

Every, single trusted and lofty institution has had a representative caught red-handed behaving very badly regarding the oaths they took for their duties.

Cops shooting unarmed civilians, doctors feeling up their patients, bankers with a hand in the till, colleges taking admissions bribes from the wealthy, ad-infinitum...

And I am expected to believe that 'scientists' are somehow immune or incapable of these sorts of transgressions?

No. I will not.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
I recognize a scam when I see it. And the biggest scam of all is religion.

And so is global warming. And if it isn't, it is being presented EXACTLY as if it were a scam.

Every, single trusted and lofty institution has had a representative caught red-handed behaving very badly regarding the oaths they took for their duties.

Cops shooting unarmed civilians, doctors feeling up their patients, bankers with a hand in the till, colleges taking admissions bribes from the wealthy, ad-infinitum...

And I am expected to believe that 'scientists' are somehow immune or incapable of these sorts of transgressions?

No. I will not.

That’s the problem with ‘Fake News’.

Religion isn’t a scam, unless you focus on the scammy parts, or think for yourself.

People of integrity on either side of our political divide can agree that Religion is amazing, and also absolutely horrifying.

There are certainly scams within the Church, or the Police, or Bankers, or whatever.

But, that’s not Science.

Scientists everywhere follow the Scientific Method.

It’s apolitical.

It’s a fact-based scenario where you just go where your data takes you, and you live your entire scientist life to figure out that a 12% solution of wtf cures Cancer.

But, don’t confuse Science with Government.

Science gave us mad Military weapons, put us on the Moon, almost eradicated Polio and Measles, created the DARPA net, now the Internet...

Etc. etc.

It’s not a scam.

Every dollar we spend on basic scientific research pays us back between ten/forty fold.
 

LarryBird

Well-Known Member
You’re fairly new to this forum, just a heads up...

If you want nuanced discussion, run away.

I’m on four other forums, BC consistently performs in the bottom in terms of actual discussion.

In the Current Events section of BC, there’s just monkeys throwing st at each other...go try the Union section of BC, it’s the same thing..Godspeed.

I appreciate your well-crafted posts and responses, and you should know it’s an absolute waste of time.

Do what you will, but just recognize that posting in Current Events is like pissing in the wind while standing on a moving airplane wing at 20,000 ft.

Your piss freezes immediately, comes back and hits you in the face, and you fall off the wing.

Was your post correct?

Doesn’t matter, you’re dead.
I've noticed as much.

I also have been a regular participant on another message board forever, that has far more intelligent posters, and somewhat better discussion. At least there's a large subset of that anyway, but I'm not really happy with the direction it's gone in since the 2016 election (stuff there has gotten personal and vindictive - outing of personal info, employers contacted, public shaming, etc.), so I've been distancing myself from there for a while now.

Wasting time is what message boards are for. I'd bust out my world-class trolling skills here, but they don't put up with nearly the level of :censored2: my other waste of time does. So I'll just keep it real, genuinely post what I think, and respond even to idiocy, with logic and honest opinions based in fact and gained knowledge.

The alternative, is they ban me with the quickness, and even with trying to be kind of nice/respectful, they took away my posting privileges without mod approval when I first started to participate here, after I was a bit too overzealous in my rebuttals toward some of the 'challenged' posters here who tried to come at me - they deleted all of what I would consider my "best work" too. Talking :censored2: here is frowned upon, unfortunately for me, because it's one of my best talents. But it does feel like shooting fish is a barrel here anyway, so I'll go for my sport elsewhere, and post sincerely here for the most part.

All message boards are basically the same though. Preaching to the choir or arguing with ignorance. There's usually a decent number of people to engage in serious discussion with anywhere, once you wade through the :censored2:. It's just deeper on a board full of half literate truckers, but at least we've got a career in common, which means I respect most of the people here despite whatever, to put it kind of nicely.
 
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LarryBird

Well-Known Member
If you truly believe these things, I will not try to dissuade you. Nor will I mock or ridicule you.

Also, it's obvious you and I simply cannot have a mutually beneficial discussion regarding these matters.

Science is simply not incorruptible.
Oh. You're one of those guys.

You should get with a poster who goes by @rickyb, you'll get along famously with him. You two can both shine each other's tin foil hats and brush up on old conspiracies, and no doubt with the amazing level of your combined brainpower and mistrust of all things, you'll definitely come up with some fantastic new ones to pollute the world with.

I'm all for conspiracy theories, at least the ones that are plausible, and have some potential merit to them. I find them extremely entertaining, and truly believe some. But to mistrust every institution in the world, or think the actions of a few bad apples are indicative of the whole, is seriously flawed and kind of weird, and a sort of mental illness.

Seek out the correct information and ignore the fake :censored2: and propaganda. Don't let the propaganda corrupt your trust and ruin your search for knowledge. If you can't trust anything you read or anything you watch, it's gonna be a hard road to learn much of anything - we can't witness everything firsthand, and we can't test out every single hypothesis that's presented by someone, or be everywhere. Sometimes you've got to take someone else's word for it, on a whole host of things, brah.

Just make sure their intentions aren't nefarious, and then learn from them, and broaden your own knowledge base. Question the knowledge, sure. But don't mistrust every single thing we've actually come to know - that only :censored2:ing stops progress and literally takes you/us backwards in most instances.

Sure, science and data ARE able to be corrupted, for a little while, that is. Then others test the science or the data, and it is either confirmed or debunked, and we move on to solving the next problem or fixing the corrupted science. Do you even know how science works?
 

Mutineer

Well-Known Member
Oh. You're one of those guys.

You should get with a poster who goes by @rickyb, you'll get along famously with him. You two can both shine each other's tin foil hats and brush up on old conspiracies, and no doubt with the amazing level of your combined brainpower and mistrust of all things, you'll definitely come up with some fantastic new ones to pollute the world with.

I'm all for conspiracy theories, at least the ones that are plausible, and have some potential merit to them. I find them extremely entertaining, and truly believe some. But to mistrust every institution in the world, or think the actions of a few bad apples are indicative of the whole, is seriously flawed and kind of weird, and a sort of mental illness.

Seek out the correct information and ignore the fake :censored2: and propaganda. Don't let the propaganda corrupt your trust and ruin your search for knowledge. If you can't trust anything you read or anything you watch, it's gonna be a hard road to learn much of anything - we can't witness everything firsthand, and we can't test out every single hypothesis that's presented by someone, or be everywhere. Sometimes you've got to take someone else's word for it, on a whole host of things, brah.

Just make sure their intentions aren't nefarious, and then learn from them, and broaden your own knowledge base. Question the knowledge, sure. But don't mistrust every single thing we've actually come to know - that only :censored2:ing stops progress and literally takes you/us backwards in most instances.

Sure, science and data ARE able to be corrupted, for a little while, that is. Then others test the science or the data, and it is either confirmed or debunked, and we move on to solving the next problem or fixing the corrupted science. Do you even know how science works?

Your response consists of a straw man fallacy and insults. And I can't take anything seriously from a person who lives vicariously through something as vapid, trivial, and devoid of real accomplishment as some slack-jawed sports hero.
 
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