How about a 40.0 list instead of a 9.5 list...

noril

Well-Known Member
As I understand things, one of the big issues in these current contract negotiations is excessive overtime, and that is something many drivers have had as a big complaint about for at least the past 23 years which have been my time at UPS. I like the slogan "work to live, not live to work." I don't sense the 9.5 list has been effective enough in reducing this unwanted overtime. People keep filing grievances and UPS keeps paying out, but I figure that getting some extra cash is really not what a person who is seeking a better work-life balance truly wants...

A solution that I am informally proposing here is to create a new 40.0 list which is something you would sign on to as a full time driver if you want to work right around 40 hours per week, but instead of being paid extra money the way one is when winning a 9.5 grievance, filing a grievance for over 40.0 would instead earn one an extra, unpaid day off once the amount of overtime you have worked adds up to over 8 hours. A certain reasonable amount of time would be given to the company to schedule the extra day off, so as to not mess up the operation for UPS. Just like the 9.5 list is suspended for peak season, it would be the same with this 40.0 list...and maybe a few additional times as well, such as the days leading up to Valentines Day and Mothers' Day where there is some spike in volume that we need "all hands on deck" and shouldn't blame UPS for the momentary worker shortage.

To address right away some objections people may have to my idea, I have heard it argued that it is less costly for UPS to pay overtime and even overtime grievances than it is to hire additional drivers because of the value of the benefits that are given over and above the wages. However, one reason this thinking never made much sense to me is because UPS has a huge number of part-timers who are receiving a benefits package beyond their wages that is not much less than that of full-timers. If a big goal should be keeping the number of people who are getting benefits as low as possible, then why isn't UPS trying to minimize the number of part-timers by encouraging people to voluntarily work 2 split shifts and reduce the overall head count and thereby benefits paid?

Additionally and more importantly, I strongly suspect that driver injury, which is also costly as well as dreadful for the injured, occurs at the level it does as a result of all the overtime full time package car drivers have typically had to put in all throughout the year. I believe that when people are fatigued and stretched beyond their healthy limits is when injuries are far more likely to occur despite all the best training on safety and proper work methods. As best I remember from recently looking at the package car driver rosters at the hub out of which I work, approximately 10% of the people on the lists are out longer term due to some injury. So even if hiring more drivers means there will be significant extra costs with the additional benefits that have to be paid, in addition to doing the right thing ethically, if I was a gambling man, I would wager that UPS management would be pleasantly surprised by a net financial savings that would come about through reduced employee injury and fewer disability payments as a result of getting full-timers working right around the standard 40-hour work week made possible through the hiring of the additional drivers, and giving everyone the off time to rest and recover properly in order to stay safe and in good health.

I recognize that in some cases there are significant advantages to having someone work more than 8 hours on the typical day. Perhaps the best solution in such cases might be having someone work four, ten hour, not necessarily all consecutive days or some other schedule where one still works right around a 40-hour week.

As a disclaimer, with what I have proposed above, I speak for no one other than myself, but I do hope to win other people over like I tried to do with another thread I started not too long ago. That thread generated what I thought was some good discussion. I hope the same happens here, and ideally reaches some people who are involved in making the big decisions...
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
Completely agree. 40 hours would be great. If others want more than that then post a sign up sheet for overtime work.

The other thing to think about is we are actually working for 40-50 hours, whether it's in & out time or windshield time. Most other jobs employees might be at work for 40 hours, but the actual work time is down around 20-25. Just look at mgmt, on roads might actually be working 10 hours a week, maybe.
 

KearsargeCoop

Baseball, dart board
Completely agree. 40 hours would be great. If others want more than that then post a sign up sheet for overtime work.

The other thing to think about is we are actually working for 40-50 hours, whether it's in & out time or windshield time. Most other jobs employees might be at work for 40 hours, but the actual work time is down around 20-25. Just look at mgmt, on roads might actually be working 10 hours a week, maybe.
I'm not going to argue with you, but what are a few examples that you have in mind?
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
I think if you dig a little farther into it, you'll find that the real issue isn't "paying benefits " to extra drivers (because the part timers that would be driving are already getting benefits) but getting drivers to a point that they quit before they can get to a decent pension payout.

If it was an 8 hour job I think most people would stick it out for that pension. But when people have to skip their children's lives for that pension they decide to bail early.

So ups doesn't have to pay them 3 or 4k for the rest of their lives. That is the real factor I believe.
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to argue with you, but what are a few examples that you have in mind?
An accountant I know says they actually work about 20 hours out of 40. The rest of the time is chit chatting. Many jobs are like this, go to a car dealership and take a look around at the workers. There are many jobs where looking busy is part of the job.
I read a study many years ago saying it was around 28 hours of actual work out of 40.
 

KearsargeCoop

Baseball, dart board
An accountant I know says they actually work about 20 hours out of 40. The rest of the time is chit chatting. Many jobs are like this, go to a car dealership and take a look around at the workers. There are many jobs where looking busy is part of the job.
I read a study many years ago saying it was around 28 hours of actual work out of 40.
I see your point.
And agree to a certain extent. I do however believe that any time (aside from commute) away from your family at the disposal of your employer are billable hours. Work. Sometimes, in some jobs, theirs lag time.
 

MyTripisCut

Never bought my own handtruck
I think if you dig a little farther into it, you'll find that the real issue isn't "paying benefits " to extra drivers (because the part timers that would be driving are already getting benefits) but getting drivers to a point that they quit before they can get to a decent pension payout.

If it was an 8 hour job I think most people would stick it out for that pension. But when people have to skip their children's lives for that pension they decide to bail early.

So ups doesn't have to pay them 3 or 4k for the rest of their lives. That is the real factor I believe.
UPS doesn’t pay our pension. (Except PT pensions and not always this either) They contribute to it hourly, then the Teamsters invest and pay it out to us.
An accountant I know says they actually work about 20 hours out of 40. The rest of the time is chit chatting. Many jobs are like this, go to a car dealership and take a look around at the workers. There are many jobs where looking busy is part of the job.
I read a study many years ago saying it was around 28 hours of actual work out of 40.
Go sell cars if you wanna sit around and chit chat. They collect no pension or come close to the healthcare we have. This job ain’t for everyone.
 

DOK

Well-Known Member
How about punching in first and being on the clock to get your diad, call tags, follow ups, etc, then go to your truck, then the pcm? There’s a lot we do unpaid in the morning to be at pcm at start time.
 

MyTripisCut

Never bought my own handtruck
As I understand things, one of the big issues in these current contract negotiations is excessive overtime, and that is something many drivers have had as a big complaint about for at least the past 23 years which have been my time at UPS. I like the slogan "work to live, not live to work." I don't sense the 9.5 list has been effective enough in reducing this unwanted overtime. People keep filing grievances and UPS keeps paying out, but I figure that getting some extra cash is really not what a person who is seeking a better work-life balance truly wants...

A solution that I am informally proposing here is to create a new 40.0 list which is something you would sign on to as a full time driver if you want to work right around 40 hours per week, but instead of being paid extra money the way one is when winning a 9.5 grievance, filing a grievance for over 40.0 would instead earn one an extra, unpaid day off once the amount of overtime you have worked adds up to over 8 hours. A certain reasonable amount of time would be given to the company to schedule the extra day off, so as to not mess up the operation for UPS. Just like the 9.5 list is suspended for peak season, it would be the same with this 40.0 list...and maybe a few additional times as well, such as the days leading up to Valentines Day and Mothers' Day where there is some spike in volume that we need "all hands on deck" and shouldn't blame UPS for the momentary worker shortage.

To address right away some objections people may have to my idea, I have heard it argued that it is less costly for UPS to pay overtime and even overtime grievances than it is to hire additional drivers because of the value of the benefits that are given over and above the wages. However, one reason this thinking never made much sense to me is because UPS has a huge number of part-timers who are receiving a benefits package beyond their wages that is not much less than that of full-timers. If a big goal should be keeping the number of people who are getting benefits as low as possible, then why isn't UPS trying to minimize the number of part-timers by encouraging people to voluntarily work 2 split shifts and reduce the overall head count and thereby benefits paid?

Additionally and more importantly, I strongly suspect that driver injury, which is also costly as well as dreadful for the injured, occurs at the level it does as a result of all the overtime full time package car drivers have typically had to put in all throughout the year. I believe that when people are fatigued and stretched beyond their healthy limits is when injuries are far more likely to occur despite all the best training on safety and proper work methods. As best I remember from recently looking at the package car driver rosters at the hub out of which I work, approximately 10% of the people on the lists are out longer term due to some injury. So even if hiring more drivers means there will be significant extra costs with the additional benefits that have to be paid, in addition to doing the right thing ethically, if I was a gambling man, I would wager that UPS management would be pleasantly surprised by a net financial savings that would come about through reduced employee injury and fewer disability payments as a result of getting full-timers working right around the standard 40-hour work week made possible through the hiring of the additional drivers, and giving everyone the off time to rest and recover properly in order to stay safe and in good health.

I recognize that in some cases there are significant advantages to having someone work more than 8 hours on the typical day. Perhaps the best solution in such cases might be having someone work four, ten hour, not necessarily all consecutive days or some other schedule where one still works right around a 40-hour week.

As a disclaimer, with what I have proposed above, I speak for no one other than myself, but I do hope to win other people over like I tried to do with another thread I started not too long ago. That thread generated what I thought was some good discussion. I hope the same happens here, and ideally reaches some people who are involved in making the big decisions...
You want the reward for working more than 40 hours to be an unpaid day off? Lmfaoooo. How long you worked here little guy?
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
Go sell cars if you wanna sit around and chit chat. They collect no pension or come close to the healthcare we have. This job ain’t for everyone.
I don't want to sit around & chit chat. My point was that we work nonstop, most other people do not. They work "28" and get paid for 40. We work 48 and get paid for 48.
Most drivers think 40 is enough work, if you want 48 or more than you can sign up for that.
 

bdmiz

Well-Known Member
You want the reward for working more than 40 hours to be an unpaid day off? Lmfaoooo. How long you worked here little guy?
you are an insufferable old man. you seem to get your rocks off from belittling people on this forum. may i suggest buying a pocket pusillanimous and utilizing it daily, it will help that tension you feel. If you're married, get a girlfriend since your wife clearly isn't taking care of you.
 

Thebrownblob

Well-Known Member
We haven’t really had much 9.5 issues for almost 2 years now. I might have at most two or three pre hearing.

And the ones who only want 8 that are under five years, I really would not care if they quit. This job probably is for isn't for them.
 

Brown87

New Member
OK come on I’m truly not understanding this rant. Here’s the thing that I have a problem with when you take the job you see people out late at night and you also are aware that they force employees sometimes to work on Saturdays and then you get the job in the beginning. You love the overtime then we get fat and sassy and now we complain about working overtime. It’s no different than a teacher they go to school for several years, knowing that they don’t get paid well and then they get the job and then a couple years later they’re wanting to strike and not go to work due to the fact that they want more money what gives here you know what you’re getting into when you take the job, so why complain after the fact truly don’t understand for the record. I’ve been doing this job since 1987 so I’ve seen a lot but the current workforce in the last 10 years is pathetic. Now I understand there have to be an equal median, but either way you can’t be surprised that you’re forced to work overtime when you take the job and know it.
 

BadIdeaGuy

Moderator
Staff member
How about punching in first and being on the clock to get your diad, call tags, follow ups, etc, then go to your truck, then the pcm? There’s a lot we do unpaid in the morning to be at pcm at start time.
No one wants you to work for free.

We have an allowance for AM time. Get your call tags after PCM. Same with follow ups.

Some mornings I don’t go up to my truck before start time. I don’t care if it’s blown out, or perfect. I’ll deliver one stop at a time until my day is done.
 

Thebrownblob

Well-Known Member
OK come on I’m truly not understanding this rant. Here’s the thing that I have a problem with when you take the job you see people out late at night and you also are aware that they force employees sometimes to work on Saturdays and then you get the job in the beginning. You love the overtime then we get fat and sassy and now we complain about working overtime. It’s no different than a teacher they go to school for several years, knowing that they don’t get paid well and then they get the job and then a couple years later they’re wanting to strike and not go to work due to the fact that they want more money what gives here you know what you’re getting into when you take the job, so why complain after the fact truly don’t understand for the record. I’ve been doing this job since 1987 so I’ve seen a lot but the current workforce in the last 10 years is pathetic. Now I understand there have to be an equal median, but either way you can’t be surprised that you’re forced to work overtime when you take the job and know it.
Overtime has made my 401(k) fat and put my kids through college. I never missed any big events in there lives, and as the years moved along, I accumulated more time off, and more seniority, and now I can get an eight hour day I want, any day off I want, and any vacation week I want, for the most part. Follow the methods the best you can and this job is a breeze. Your management team will actually hate you for it😂
 

Thebrownblob

Well-Known Member
No one wants you to work for free.

We have an allowance for AM time. Get your call tags after PCM. Same with follow ups.

Some mornings I don’t go up to my truck before start time. I don’t care if it’s blown out, or perfect. I’ll deliver one stop at a time until my day is done.
I usually arrive at work a little early because I have union things to do, people ask me what’s your route like today and I will tell them I have no idea, couldn’t care less I don’t go to my truck or look at their silly computer, until after I’m done with union and definitely not before start time. If I’m over dispatched, it’s their problem not mine.
 

MyTripisCut

Never bought my own handtruck
you are an insufferable old man. you seem to get your rocks off from belittling people on this forum. may i suggest buying a pocket pusillanimous and utilizing it daily, it will help that tension you feel. If you're married, get a girlfriend since your wife clearly isn't taking care of you.
Go drink some Bud Light you little dicked tranny, I’ll rip your eyebrows off. You want a part time job go work at Macys with your gay father.
 

Thebrownblob

Well-Known Member
Go drink some Bud Light you little dicked tranny, I’ll rip your eyebrows off. You want a part time job go work at Macys with your gay father.
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MrBates

Well-Known Member
The thing I never understood about the 9.5 list was that you actually have to go thru an obstacle course just to file a grievance. With all the technology these days, you would think that they can just program the system to automatically generate a 9.5 grievance once the infraction occurs and just pay it out right away. If we can negotiate this that would fix excessive overtime real quick cause dispatch and IE would get their act together to avoid the grievance
 

Thebrownblob

Well-Known Member
The thing I never understood about the 9.5 list was that you actually have to go thru an obstacle course just to file a grievance. With all the technology these days, you would think that they can just program the system to automatically generate a 9.5 grievance once the infraction occurs and just pay it out right away. If we can negotiate this that would fix excessive overtime real quick cause dispatch and IE would get their act together to avoid the grievance
I would love for it to be auto once on the list.
 
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