I Knock Over Your Block Tower, a Metaphor For Socialism

[Tom MacDonald]

socialism = the workers collectively decide on how to build the tower and collectively decide what to do with the profits. they may also be unionized. the power is more evenly distributed under this system, and the risk is more spread as far as the monetary investment is concerned. and o yea this already exists, 25000 of some version of this in italy. they exist in america including being run by republicans who are clueless that they are sortve carrying out what karl marx envisioned.

Just curious, in this utopia of worker collectively deciding. What do you do with the people who show up late, high, and are unproductive?

You can't give them a lower wage or fire them. If they were a minority you could be labeled racist.

 

[Tom MacDonald]

Worker unions are great but it also gives losers a reason to be losers

 

[Whither]

You don't know how anything works, just what your "guys" tell you. You certainly don't understand human psychology and behavior. I'd rather be sure of myself than of "guys". That's the difference between an internal locus of control and an external one. Guess which one causes people to be more easily manipulated.

Is it because of Marx and/or 'socialism' that we all know brothers who do a lot of volunteer work for UPS?

That at non-unionized workplaces people are often so concerned about losing their livelihoods, and therefore being kicked to the curb, that they accept various indignities and generally poor wages?

 

[sailfish]

Worker unions are great but it also gives losers a reason to be losers

That's the beauty of unions where merit takes precedence over seniority for certain things.

 

[Whither]

I am beginning to understand that capitalism is a term that Marx used, maybe even coined, to help demonize what is essentially an emergent economic system. It's the system that people organize themselves into when left to pursue their own goals and interests. Modern corporatism is not quite the blight on this emergent system that socialism is, but it is problematic and needs to be dealt with.

It would be incredible to consider working conditions in the Industrial Revolution (including today, in countries that have been rapidly industrializing) as what occurs when people 'are left to pursue their own goals and interests.'

It is likely that this 'emergent economic system' would not have gotten off the ground without 1. the plundering of the Americas and 2. government-authorized projects of land enclosure which 'freed' people from the ability to grow food to sustain themselves and shunted them into the emerging wage labor market. For a modern analogue to the way England 'encouraged' its peasants to enlist in the workshops, and eventually, the factories, see what's happened in China over the last 50 years. From the outset and throughout its development, there's no way to separate flows of capital from state power.

Wage labor has frequently been compared to slavery. While 'free labor' working for wages was uncommon in ancient Greece and Rome, it was viewed with disdain. In modern times Frederick Douglass spoke of a 'slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery'. And of course, wage slavery was catchphrase of the workers' movement and unions even here in the US -- no doubt used by our Teamster brothers in 1934.

 

[rickyb]

The first clue is that they worked at the NYT to begin with. A lot can happen in 30 + years.

Now, let's consider, if co-ops are the answer to corporatism, why would your guys try to convince people that co-ops are linked to an objectively failed economic system? Sounds to me like they could be corporate operatives who are undermining any potential threat to the concept of corporatism.

because socialism isnt objectively failed, but what did fail are certain versions of socialism. giving the govt all the economic power probably not a recipie for success any more than giving capitalist corporations all the power.

theres lots of successful socialism whether its libraries, the bank of north dakota, republican cooperatives, community land trusts, democratic budgeting, etc.

 

[rickyb]

It would be incredible to consider working conditions in the Industrial Revolution (including today, in countries that have been rapidly industrializing) as what occurs when people 'are left to pursue their own goals and interests.'

It is likely that this 'emergent economic system' would not have gotten off the ground without 1. the plundering of the Americas and 2. government-authorized projects of land enclosure which 'freed' people from the ability to grow food to sustain themselves and shunted them into the emerging wage labor market. For a modern analogue to the way England 'encouraged' its peasants to enlist in the workshops, and eventually, the factories, see what's happened in China over the last 50 years. From the outset and throughout its development, there's no way to separate flows of capital from state power.

Wage labor has frequently been compared to slavery. While 'free labor' working for wages was uncommon in ancient Greece and Rome, it was viewed with disdain. In modern times Frederick Douglass spoke of a 'slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery'. And of course, wage slavery was catchphrase of the workers' movement and unions even here in the US -- no doubt used by our Teamster brothers in 1934.

ending wage slavery was the slogan of the republican party. worker self directed enterprise and overcoming capitalism was extremely popular in america, and these sentiments are probably just below the surface now. america was extremely protectionist and thats part of the reason why it became rich.

 

[rickyb]

Just curious, in this utopia of worker collectively deciding. What do you do with the people who show up late, high, and are unproductive?

You can't give them a lower wage or fire them. If they were a minority you could be labeled racist.

of course you can vote to fire them. ive almost applied for a local worker self directed job myself, i talked with them.

 

[Wally]

Plenty of support for free stuff right now. Those checks the government is throwing around is paying off for big gov hopeful's.

JUST IN: New Poll Reveals Broad Support for Biden’s Corporate Tax Increase and Infrastructure Bill

Early indications are that President Joe Biden's $2 trillion infrastructure proposal is a hit with the American people

www.mediaite.com

 

[rickyb]

The first clue is that they worked at the NYT to begin with. A lot can happen in 30 + years.

Now, let's consider, if co-ops are the answer to corporatism, why would your guys try to convince people that co-ops are linked to an objectively failed economic system? Sounds to me like they could be corporate operatives who are undermining any potential threat to the concept of corporatism.

a balanced way of looking at karl marx is he was right about many things and also wrong about somethings.

 

[rickyb]

Plenty of support for free stuff right now. Those checks the government is throwing around is paying off for big gov hopeful's.

JUST IN: New Poll Reveals Broad Support for Biden’s Corporate Tax Increase and Infrastructure Bill

Early indications are that President Joe Biden's $2 trillion infrastructure proposal is a hit with the American people

www.mediaite.com

yea americas frequently agree on and poll highly on certain issues like medicare for all, but its the corrupt govt bought off by rich capitalists, not immigrants, which makes we the people's wishes beyond the parameters of acceptable debate.

sometimes the propaganda system changes polls on certain catch phrases but not others. so for example if you look up the welfare debate that happened with ronald reagan, certain phrases saying to cut welfare were very popular becuase of the propaganda system, but certain phrases to increase it polled very high as well.

 

[rickyb]

the vp admits we are knocking over blocktowers for capitalistss oil

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379620891298983946

 

[zubenelgenubi]

a balanced way of looking at karl marx is he was right about many things and also wrong about somethings.

He was wrong about the fundamentals of human nature, which make the rest irrelevant.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

the vp admits we are knocking over blocktowers for capitalistss oil

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379620891298983946

I don't doubt that, but she doesn't mean it she's just pushing her communist agenda. They are restarting those same wars. We will fight wars over water, when the left takes over and completely destroy our infrastructure through mismanagement.

 

[It will be fine]

He was wrong about the fundamentals of human nature, which make the rest irrelevant.

I haven’t read any Marx but isn’t the basis built around the collective human nature? We are tribal animals that built our society through collective action unattainable by the individual.

 

[rickyb]

I haven’t read any Marx but isn’t the basis built around the collective human nature? We are tribal animals that built our society through collective action unattainable by the individual.

even if zub is right about human nature which i have no idea, his logic makes no sense lol

 

[It will be fine]

even if zub is right about human nature which i have no idea, his logic makes no sense lol

He’s wrong about most everything which makes his confidence so intriguing.

 

[El Correcto]

That's how your guys trick you. That's how socialists on Wikipedia trick you. They misuse words, promise a better life, point out imaginary boogeymen within the current economic system, get everyone worked up into revolt. They sit back and let it all happen, then seize totalitarian control and lock all that freedom down. Happens every time.

It’s no use Ricky doesn’t understand free markets and freedom of association.
He thinks socialism can exist in co-ops, operating in a free society and that’s what we are trying to stop. I don’t give a damn if co-ops are successful, good for them. If that was the case free markets would allow them to flourish.

 

[rickyb]

It’s no use Ricky doesn’t understand free markets and freedom of association.
He thinks socialism can exist in co-ops, operating in a free society and that’s what we are trying to stop. I don’t give a damn if co-ops are successful, good for them. If that was the case free markets would allow them to flourish.

markets dont work teh way you think they do.

 

[El Correcto]

markets dont work teh way you think they do.

You don’t understand that I don’t care if private individuals form a co-op and run the business that way with democratic voice in the work place. Good for them it’s a free country.

Once you begin introducing authoritarianism into the mix to tank other companies for not doing this so the co-ops don’t have to compete is when things get dicey for everyone.