I Knock Over Your Block Tower, a Metaphor For Socialism

[rickyb]

I know a lot about those subjects. Not saying I couldn't learn more. The critiques of markets I've read are written by people who don't understand that markets are inseparable from the people who participate in them.

I understand that completely free and open markets are prone to abuse, which is why we have regulation. The goal of regulation should be to keep markets as free as possible. The fact is, though, that regulation tends to make markets even easier to abuse. They lock out competition, and end up hurting everyone but the people they are meant to limit.

check out michael hudson.

 

[Tom MacDonald]

of course you can vote to fire them. ive almost applied for a local worker self directed job myself, i talked with them.

Ok good point.

Now say we have a young lady who claims sexual harassment, but has zero evidence, and to convince others she is crying and throwing a temper tantrum.

You may not agree to firing the dude because there is lack of evidence. But "believe women" is trending on twitter and all of your co workers are up in there feels and vote to fire him without evidence.

Now we have a man that never did anything wrong and is out of a job with sexual harassment on his government profile.

Your thoughts?

 

[rickyb]

Ok good point.

Now say we have a young lady who claims sexual harassment, but has zero evidence, and to convince others she is crying and throwing a temper tantrum.

You may not agree to firing the dude because there is lack of evidence. But "believe women" is trending on twitter and all of your co workers are up in there feels and vote to fire him without evidence.

Now we have a man that never did anything wrong and is out of a job with sexual harassment on his government profile.

Your thoughts?

this one is less about cooperatives but more about evidence. some cooperatives are unionized. there are also places coops can turn to to get more help with running a cooperative.

yea like any court there should be evidence to prove guilt. nowadays the justice system is so underfunded it cant handle giving people trials, so everyone is pleading guilty. i know someone who plead guilty when they were innocent.

 

[Tom MacDonald]

this one is less about cooperatives but more about evidence. some cooperatives are unionized. there are also places coops can turn to to get more help with running a cooperative.

yea like any court there should be evidence to prove guilt. nowadays the justice system is so underfunded it cant handle giving people trials, so everyone is pleading guilty. i know someone who plead guilty when they were innocent.

Well I'm glad we can agree we need to have evidence and not a trending twitter post.

 

[rickyb]

Well I'm glad we can agree we need to have evidence and not a trending twitter post.

u know i was just reminded of the whole hollywood execs having sex with actresses and some of that is because of capitalist power abuse, you give one person too much power (for too long) and they take advantage of ppl like sexual assault.

 

[vantexan]

no what i want is worker self determination and community democracy not top down capitalist control or top down govt control.

OK then why in the past when suggested you start a co-op you wanted others to do it? Because all you want to do is tell others to do it. You don't want to work.

 

[rickyb]

OK then why in the past when suggested you start a co-op you wanted others to do it? Because all you want to do is tell others to do it. You don't want to work.

i almost joined one which might be the same thing. there are local bank coops as well, which even were mentioned on ralph nader radio hour. if there were more coops, then there wouldve been a higher chance of me working at one. unfortunately i dont live in parts of spain or italy where there are alot, i live in a less enlightened country.

 

[Tom MacDonald]

u know i was just reminded of the whole hollywood execs having sex with actresses and some of that is because of capitalist power abuse, you give one person too much power (for too long) and they take advantage of ppl like sexual assault.

And when one person has too much power like xi pooh bear Jinping in communist power abuse they take advantage of millions of people in slave labor camps

 

[rickyb]

And when one person has too much power like xi pooh bear Jinping in communist power abuse they take advantage of millions of people in slave labor camps

exactly.

 

[Tom MacDonald]

exactly.

Do you believe in religious freedom?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

well you used authoritarianism to ban slavery except in prisons...its called a law lol

you are conflating authoritarianism with a democratic republic passing laws.

Who's conflating here? Which is it? Authoritarianism or democratic republic passing a law?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Is it because of Marx and/or 'socialism' that we all know brothers who do a lot of volunteer work for UPS?

Nope, it is evidence that Marx doesn't much understand human nature. I'm not saying anyone has it all figured out, but his is one of the more popular theories that is still somehow so far off the mark.

That at non-unionized workplaces people are often so concerned about losing their livelihoods, and therefore being kicked to the curb, that they accept various indignities and generally poor wages?

So which is it? Are union brothers so afraid of losing their jobs that they work off the clock? Or is it non-unionized workers. I assert it is just that people are fearful in general, and that gets exploited, whether it be by "evil capitalist pigs" or by failed economic theorists.

Just read an article on the prestige paradox, which attempts to explain why people will go along with whatever they think will earn them the most status, rather than with what is true. Probably explains a little why it can be so difficult to get people to band together and fight for a common good via grass roots methods, and why top down methodologies are generally more effective.

Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox: Are High Status People More Likely to Lie?

The first type, termed the “central” route, comes from careful and thoughtful consideration of the messages we hear.

quillette.com

 

[rickyb]

Who's conflating here? Which is it? Authoritarianism or democratic republic passing a law?

depends on how democratic america is.

 

[rickyb]

Nope, it is evidence that Marx doesn't much understand human nature. I'm not saying anyone has it all figured out, but his is one of the more popular theories that is still somehow so far off the mark.




So which is it? Are union brothers so afraid of losing their jobs that they work off the clock? Or is it non-unionized workers. I assert it is just that people are fearful in general, and that gets exploited, whether it be by "evil capitalist pigs" or by failed economic theorists.

Just read an article on the prestige paradox, which attempts to explain why people will go along with whatever they think will earn them the most status, rather than with what is true. Probably explains a little why it can be so difficult to get people to band together and fight for a common good via grass roots methods, and why top down methodologies are generally more effective.

Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox: Are High Status People More Likely to Lie?

The first type, termed the “central” route, comes from careful and thoughtful consideration of the messages we hear.

quillette.com

quite often commercialism and the truth are opposed to one another.

also we live in an age where people value status and money more than truth and justice.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

depends on how democratic america is.

We're a constitutional republic, which utilizes democratic processes to establish representation. The problem with individual liberty and freedom of the people, it's a historically young concept, and we are still figuring out all the pitfalls. Determining the line where some people exercising their rights interferes with others exercising theirs is a long process of trial and error. I believe we have erred on the side of concentration of power more often than not, which may just be human nature, and unfixable.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

quite often commercialism and the truth are opposed to one another.

Just some people trying to sell stuff to other people. People get caught up in fashions and trends, it's normal, but can be problematic when pushed too far.

 

[rickyb]

Just some people trying to sell stuff to other people. People get caught up in fashions and trends, it's normal, but can be problematic when pushed too far.

they certainly are trying to sell stuff, we are in an age of rampant consumerism which has crushed other values.

 

[rickyb]

We're a constitutional republic, which utilizes democratic processes to establish representation. The problem with individual liberty and freedom of the people, it's a historically young concept, and we are still figuring out all the pitfalls. Determining the line where some people exercising their rights interferes with others exercising theirs is a long process of trial and error. I believe we have erred on the side of concentration of power more often than not, which may just be human nature, and unfixable.

yes alot of it is trial and error. so we should learn from our mistakes. chomsky has this in his anarchism book.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

they certainly are trying to sell stuff, we are in an age of rampant consumerism which has crushed other values.

We have come from a long history of scarce resources. People are used to gorging themselves during the harvest, in preparation for the coming winter of potential starvation. What is supposed to happen when the harvest is continual and the winter never comes?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

yes alot of it is trial and error. so we should learn from our mistakes. chomsky has this in his anarchism book.

I think we are trying to. It takes time to realize what the problem is, and even longer to come up with a good solution.