I Knock Over Your Block Tower, a Metaphor For Socialism

[Tom MacDonald]

the guys who mix religion with teh wars on teh middle east, religion with big money are heretics

Yes sir I agree. They're well aware of the biblical prophecies and are rushing it to test God.

The discussion I wanted to have is that the Bible tells me to avoid Pharmekeia. Will you respect my religious freedom to reject vaccines?

I will wear a mask the rest of my life before I inject government poison.

 

[rickyb]

Yes sir I agree. They're well aware of the biblical prophecies and are rushing it to test God.

The discussion I wanted to have is that the Bible tells me to avoid Pharmekeia. Will you respect my religious freedom to reject vaccines?

I will wear a mask the rest of my life before I inject government poison.

i suppose so i have no idea. its too bad these companies and govt are so corrupt.

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[zubenelgenubi]

you just said we dont much freedom to work safe jobs. why is that?

Whoa! Is that what you gathered from that post? Might want to read it again, and read the post I was responding to.

 

[rickyb]

Whoa! Is that what you gathered from that post? Might want to read it again, and read the post I was responding to.

yea i did.

Most that flock to unsafe working conditions do so because they don't have much freedom to do anything else.


why is that?

 

[Whither]

Ricky, in most historical socialist countries, so much as questioning the leadership was a one way ticket to hell.

This one lets you rail against it ad nauseum, and does nothing to silence you.

Don't forget the government invested heavily in the National Guard after the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and were deployed to break several strikes, including firing on and killing strikers. Or the Red scares. Or Cointelpro. Or the massive NSA spyring exposed by Snowden.

 

[rickyb]

Don't forget the government invested heavily in the National Guard after the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and were deployed to break several strikes, including firing on and killing strikers. Or the Red scares. Or Cointelpro. Or the massive NSA spyring exposed by Snowden.

with enough protest the govt would kill us just the same aside from all of their other nasty oppressive tricks they already do.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

yea i did.

Most that flock to unsafe working conditions do so because they don't have much freedom to do anything else.


why is that?

We were talking about in emerging economies. They didn't/don't have much freedom to do much else mostly because of a lack of property rights.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

He’s wrong about most everything which makes his confidence so intriguing.

I'm sure from your perspective, it must seem that way. Lol.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Marxists? Nah. Marx would've liked the tower. He said that capitalism was the greatest economic system that existed to date, accomplishing more great things than all the previous systems combined in a period of less than 100 years, and a necessary prerequisite for any good socialism might bring about.

Non-Marxist Socialists? Anarchists? Angry anti-capitalist college kids? Yeah, probably.

That post didn't mention Marx at all. Marx's view on capitalism was an assessment of a very narrow slice of economic activity. He believed, wrongly, that workers would rise up, install socialism, so that everyone could live like the bourgeoisie. The only way anyone could get the workers to revolt has been through agitation. Socialism is not a natural next step in economic evolution, as Marx believed. It is a failed concept that basically requires getting people to destroy everything created through organic economic comditions, and even then it doesn't work.

 

[Whither]

Nope, it is evidence that Marx doesn't much understand human nature. I'm not saying anyone has it all figured out, but his is one of the more popular theories that is still somehow so far off the mark.

I think @SLW's quick and dirty take on Marx is probably the better interpretation. Marx was a champion of progress; at times he seems to have thought communism would be the almost-inescapable outcome of capitalist development. (FWIW I disagree and crack up when people cite Marx as if he were a prophet.) I also don't think it's possible for us to make objective claims re: human nature. 1. We're interested parties, judging in our own case and 2. it stands to reason that how people are -- what they do, how they think -- is substantially influenced by the world they are born into as (initially) helpless dependents. The point is not to say nature plays no role in how we are, socially and individually, but I don't see how one could isolate a 'true' nature from social, cultural, and economic, etc conditions.

So which is it? Are union brothers so afraid of losing their jobs that they work off the clock? Or is it non-unionized workers. I assert it is just that people are fearful in general, and that gets exploited, whether it be by "evil capitalist pigs" or by failed economic theorists.

The brothers I know who donate their labor say they do it because they want to be involved in their kids' lives. If they had a stronger option than the 9.5 list -- which, as we know, more reliably pads our income rather than lightens our dispatch -- I'm sure they'd use it. However, accomplishing that would require concerted action, and likely not just at UPS, but across the entire transportation/freight industry. It would require challenging the whole notion of 'operational needs' which rationalizes grueling hours for the sake of moving commodities.

As a side note, I have no interest in blaming 'evil capitalist pigs'. That's the socialist equivalent of the Illuminati conspiracy theory. Capital may well be an 'evil genius' but it answers to no one in particular, not even gaudy billionaires. I think of capital as AI or Skynet (lol); it is the supreme agent of history -- we are bit players, and since it is capable turning nearly everything to its advantage, we mostly do its bidding realize it or not, like it or not.

 

[Whither]

We were talking about in emerging economies. They didn't/don't have much freedom to do much else mostly because of a lack of property rights.

Or because they were peasants evicted from common lands and/or small-holdings who had to find a new way to earn their bread.

 

[Whither]

That post didn't mention Marx at all. Marx's view on capitalism was an assessment of a very narrow slice of economic activity. He believed, wrongly, that workers would rise up, install socialism, so that everyone could live like the bourgeoisie. The only way anyone could get the workers to revolt has been through agitation. Socialism is not a natural next step in economic evolution, as Marx believed. It is a failed concept that basically requires getting people to destroy everything created through organic economic comditions, and even then it doesn't work.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'organic' economic conditions?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'organic' economic conditions?

Ones that don't require intentional coercion or agitation. I'm not sure it's the best word to use, or even that the concept isn't faulty. Just kicking around some thoughts. Maybe I should have said "more organic".

 

[rickyb]

Ones that don't require intentional coercion or agitation. I'm not sure it's the best word to use, or even that the concept isn't faulty. Just kicking around some thoughts. Maybe I should have said "more organic".

so democratic laws which are enforced are coercion?

the internal structure of a capitalist job is usually coercive. i dont find capitalist to be a smooth system, its full of conflict.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

so democratic laws which are enforced are coercion?

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the internal structure of a capitalist job is usually coercive. i dont find capitalist to be a smooth system, its full of conflict.

No agitating workers into murdering competent farmers, so that everyone starves to death is full of conflict.

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[El Correcto]

No agitating workers into murdering competent farmers, so that everyone starves to death is full of conflict.

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Ricky will just conflate the starvation faced by the Indians under British imperialism with capitalism. Which he isn’t wrong that it was a capitalist motivation to make a profit, but he is wrong about that being an example of libertarian free markets.

 

[El Correcto]

Then Ricky will just go on a rant and deflect away from it with some dumb platitude about workers and capitalism depending on your response, then it’s down to the next commie rabbit hole with him if you decide to take the plunge.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Then Ricky will just go on a rant and deflect away from it with some dumb platitude about workers and capitalism depending on your response, then it’s down to the next commie rabbit hole with him if you decide to take the plunge.

That's why I started this thread, so other posters won't read our interactions on other threads and think I'm being mean to little brother.

 

[rickyb]

No agitating workers into murdering competent farmers, so that everyone starves to death is full of conflict.

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sure that is. are worker cooperatives more organic and smooth operating than capitalist biz? they are statistically more likely to succeed after all and are more democratic in theory.

check out michael hudson junk economics for critiques and what he thinks a free market is. im going to quote him and chomsky on free markets soon.

just cuz the us govt and russian govt calls it communism doesnt mean it is. govts lie. i know they busted up teh workers councils right away in russia which makes me think the collectivization they are referring to is hardly democratic and likely top down from the govt like capitalism is.

 

[rickyb]

That's why I started this thread, so other posters won't read our interactions on other threads and think I'm being mean to little brother.

thats big bro to you the tall genetics are strong with this one.