Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  2. tonyexpress

    tonyexpress Whac-A-Troll Patrol Staff Member

  3. tonyexpress

    tonyexpress Whac-A-Troll Patrol Staff Member

    Here is another thought on Buchanan's viewpoint.

    from The Wall Street Journal Editorial Page

    Friday, July 21, 2006 2:08 p.m. EDT

    The other day Pat Buchanan published a despicable attack on Israel:

    What Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.

    Some observers are amused that Buchanan is accusing a Jewish state of being "un-Christian." (Glenn Reynolds: "Well, duh.") But we're with John Podhoretz: This is anti-Semitism. Buchanan is clever enough that he is not unwittingly applying an inapplicable standard; rather, he is accusing the Jews of not being Christians, thereby attempting to turn Christians against Jews.

    For evidence of Buchanan's cleverness, consider his statement that Israel "is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians." This is artfully worded indeed. The implication is that Israel is targeting civilians, which is false, but this is only an implication. Buchanan's actual words are consistent with the truth, which is that Israel is targeting Hezbollah with the knowledge that some civilian casualties are inevitable, given that (as Buchanan fails to acknowledge) terrorist groups deliberately put civilians in harm's way in the hope that civilized countries like Israel will either be restrained from attacking or will be blamed for the civilian casualties.

    Buchanan also fails to acknowledge that Israel's enemies do target civilians, as Voice of America notes:

    Haifa Mayor Yona Yahav told VOA that among the rockets that have hit Haifa are some clearly designed to cause massive civilian casualties.

    "The specialty of these rockets is that they contain thousands of metal bullets which are going to be spread around when the rocket hits the ground," he said. "In this respect, it has the same effect as the belt of a suicide bomber."

    Would Pat Buchanan call this "Christian"?

    In any case, Buchanan's effort to turn Christians against Jews won't work. Christian anti-Semitism has a long and ugly history, but it is largely a thing of the past, especially in this country. Anti-Semitism today is chiefly the province of the Muslim world and the secular, multicultural left.

    Yesterday the House voted 410-8 in favor of a resolution "condemning the recent attacks against the State of Israel, holding terrorists and their state-sponsors accountable for such attacks, [and] supporting Israel's right to defend itself." Here's a list of the 12 congressmen who declined to support Israel:

    Voting "no"
    Voting "present"
    Neil Abercrombie (D., Hawaii)
    Marcy Kaptur (D., Ohio)
    John Conyers (D., Mich.)
    Dennis Kucinich (D., Ohio)
    John Dingell (D., Mich.)
    Barbara Lee (D., Calif.)
    Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick (D., Mich.)
    Maxine Waters (D., Calif.)
    Jim McDermott (D., Wash.)
    Ron Paul (R., Texas)
    Nick Rahall (D., W.Va.)
    Fortney Hillman Stark Jr. (D., Calif.)

    Except Ron Paul, who was the Libertarian Party's presidential nominee in 1988 and who essentially opposes all foreign policy, all of these are liberal Democrats. Similarly, look at blogospheric reactions to Buchanan's screed, and you'll find that most of his defenders are on the left. They're welcome to him.
  4. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    I have to agree with Tony on this one. The problem as I see it is that Israel is being attacked and has to defend itself. The innocent people in Lebanon being killed is because Hezbollah uses civilians as "human shields". Why don't the Lebanese throw Hezbollah out? If my country was being blown to Hell, I'd throw them out. And of course Iran and Syria is backing Hezbollah trying to draw the US into it. It was Hezbollah that killed a couple hundred of our Marines in Beirut. Most Americans have a short memory and just don't get the Big Picture. The only thing that Moselem extremists understand is brute force. People over there have been killing each other using religion as an excuse for thousands of years. Maybe a couple of mushroom clouds over Tehran and Damascus would make a point. JMHO
  5. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    What is the Arab thinking right now?

    Research the history, geography and culture of the day from the above and then take some moments to ponder the term "Greater Israel". Then think about all that is taking place in the area described in the above verse and if you were an average Arab, what would you be thinking right now? Sometimes just standing in the shoes of the other average fella does tend to throw a different perspective on things.

  6. tonyexpress

    tonyexpress Whac-A-Troll Patrol Staff Member

    Not sure I'm understanding you correctly but if the other shoes are those of a terrorist group, than no thanks.
  7. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    Hey, with all this Israel, Syria, Lebanon fiasco, someone forgot to feed Saddam Hussein !!!

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
  8. tonyexpress

    tonyexpress Whac-A-Troll Patrol Staff Member

    Some Dictators will do anything for a little attention.. :lol:
  9. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I don't consider the terrorist groups the average arab so I hope that clarifies the question I asked. You can't look at the TV news today and totally understand the events of the Middle East. You have to read about the history, culture and even geography to even get a clue as to what is happening and even that is a tall order. I'm still reading and trying to understand the Sunni and Shi'a and so far the best I can compare to would be Baptist and Methodist or maybe Protestant and Catholic and even with that I'm still not sure I got it right. Here's something to consider in the mix.

    Iran: Shi'a
    Al Queda: Sunni
    Iraq: Shi'a majority, Sunni ruled via Baathist party and Saddam
    Saudi: Sunni
    Hezbollah: Lebonese Shi'a, inspired by Komenni
    Hamas: Palastinian Sunni

    I won't go so far as to say this is completely authoritative but it's at the least a peek at what we're dealing with.


    There are many factors that total the sum of what we see and I'm not convinced we've seen all the equation from all sides yet so that we can understand the answer being given to us.

  10. Jones

    Jones fILE A GRIEVE! Staff Member

    Mac, you are absolutley correct in your assesment that noone will ever come close to understanding the problems in the Middle East through watching the nightly news. Or reading the Op-ed pages for that matter.
    Anytime you hear some pundit start talking about "what we need to do" to solve the problems (this lead-in is generally followed by a solution that depends prominently on killing some Arabs) you can go ahead and hit the mute button, because it's a guarantee they have no clue.

    One of the drawbacks to doing some extensive reading on the history of the region is that as you start to get a grasp of how complex it is and how deeply rooted and entangled most of the serious problems are, they can start to seem almost insurmountable. It's a case where having a better understanding can often leave you a lot less certain as to what the best solution is.

    One thing is for certain, labeling Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups and refusing to talk to them on that basis is practically a guarantee that you will never resolve either the Israeli/Palestinian problem or the situation in Lebanon. I give the Bush administration some credit for being pragmatic about this as, despite their rhetoric, Condi Rice spent 45 minutes today meeting privately with the Hezbollah leader in the Lebanese Parliament.

    I don't know what you've been reading, but if you want an exceptionally well written primer you can't go with Thomas Friedman's
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...5708/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-9185324-0552947?ie=UTF8 From Beirut to Jerusalem.

    From some of your other posts it sounds like you might be like http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...=pd_bbs_3/102-9185324-0552947?ie=UTF8&s=books Chalmers Johnson, if you haven't been reading him already.......
  11. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the suggestions Jones. I've actually been reading kinda all over the place as I just don't think you can find a definitive and complete single volume of work to answer all the questions. Various Geo-political sites which would be anything from right to left wing for those who like labels. Council on Foreign Relations have several studies covering a variety of areas as well as even Arab groups. Reading what I can about Islam itself starting at a website called Meta-Religion. BTW: If you aren't willing or strong enough to have the foundations of your religious beliefs deeply changed, DO NOT GO TO THIS WEBSITE! Now that's a true & honest warning for some and a real tease for free thinkers.

    Also a friend of mine is an adherent of Sufism so he and I have a number of online discussions on the subject and I'm still learning as we go and learning some about Shi'a and Sunni as well. Although not completely accurate, I see Sufism as Islam's own type of Kabbalah (Jewish Mystism) and I can piss my friend off to no end because although I adhere to the moral teachings of Jesus, I don't buy into many other dogmas and doctrines that are more IMO carryover influences from Persian Zorastrianism via the jewish exile in Babylonia in 600 BC. and the Roman Mithraism of the years after Jesus death and the co-mingling of early Chrsitianity with the Roman culture cummnating in Christianity becoming the State Religion with Constantine in 300 AD.

    I've even obtained old works of history from H.G.Wells works (actual original print copies from an estate sale) to also 200 year old works like Rollins work on world history which is an original 4 vol. work that I also found at an estate sale. It's amazing how much you can learn in these old works or can point you in a direction that in our day more answers have been found to clarify. Of late I've been reading some about the ancient Sumerian empire as this empire IMO has more of an impact on us today than we actually realize.

    I really believe Religion is as much at the heart of all this and actually moreso then oil itself. IMO, Oil and the means of wealth are seen nothing more than tools used to exert influence in order to position oneself at the head of the Table of Power. It just shows the song by Tears for Fears was right all along.

    Everybody Wants to Rule The World!