long term telematics experience ???

[rod]

at least it isn't the one about "women who fly upside down in airplane have -------

 

[55andout?]

I just wonder when ups will come out with their supervisor version of telematics?

Are you trying to suggest something?

 

[705red]

Are you trying to suggest something?

Absolutely! How many times have you heard a sup say that hes going out for a while only to call it a day and head home?

Im not throwing stones at you personally, as i would buy you a beer if i ever ran in to you at a bar. I have never had any problems with you in the past minus of course that high speed chase you put me through when we were following you sups working a couple of years ago.

I am not scared of telematics! I wear my seat belt, i close my door, i do the job as close to the book as one can.

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

Hey Folks; Thanks for passing along my article. The little problem you guys are missing is that the company can use this system to make any case they want. How many of you remember every detail of every day. They intend to discipline for theft of time. That time may be the guy on the phone, or the driver stuck in traffic etc. If they want you they can now get you. It also raises the level of retaliation for people the stups. don't like. I love the you's that are all about me. Your the ones that are going to get it first. The run and jump and hump and dump dudes. You all better get a clue to this system as fast as you can. It's way more than simply doing your job. Thanks for throwing our stuff at Denver Brown up here, and thanks for all of the comments. We have much more to talk about on our blog, and we are forever looking for more information. We love hearing from you all whatever side you may be on. Just care about someone more than yourself! By the way, any vehicles with airbags do not have seatbelt sensors according to my mechanics, but my seatbelt event keeps going off even though I don't have sensors. The system is not perfect, the first question to management must be, "have you checked the system for correct operation?". The second response is "that's how long it took!"

 

[pretzel_man]

Hey Folks; Thanks for passing along my article. The little problem you guys are missing is that the company can use this system to make any case they want. How many of you remember every detail of every day. They intend to discipline for theft of time. That time may be the guy on the phone, or the driver stuck in traffic etc. If they want you they can now get you. It also raises the level of retaliation for people the stups. don't like. I love the you's that are all about me. Your the ones that are going to get it first. The run and jump and hump and dump dudes. You all better get a clue to this system as fast as you can. It's way more than simply doing your job. Thanks for throwing our stuff at Brown up here, and thanks for all of the comments. We have much more to talk about on our blog, and we are forever looking for more information. We love hearing from you all whatever side you may be on. Just care about someone more than yourself!

Maybe you missed what I've posted before...

1500 drivers have been using the system for over a year. So far, minimal discipline. One termination that I'm aware of.

When you say "They intend to discipline for theft of time." I guess that's true. If the system shows blatent theft of time, yes we should discipline.

The intent of the system however is NOT to discipline.

It is NOT "way more than simply doing your job" as you say.

Fasten your seat belt
Close your bulkhead door
Minimize backing, especially in residential neighborhoods
Dont speed
Drive efficiently between stops
Don't violate lunch / break rules (including when, where, and how long)

You can't be disciplined for not remembering a simple delay. No one is worried about "the guy on the phone, or the driver stuck in traffic" as you say.

However, I've looked at a tremendous amount of telematics driver data from my area.

When I see a driver take a 2 hour lunch, or drive 8 miles between stops 1 mile apart, or driver 10 miles off area, I have a responsibility to discuss this with the driver.

I don't support a supervisor that abuses the system. You shouldn't support a driver that behaves in the way I just mentioned.

P-Man

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

The problem I see it is you have the expectation that all the sups. are reasonable thinking people. We haven't even had the system for a month and threats for discipline have been made without anyone even knowing how to use the system. Maybe you live in a better world in your centers, but that isn't the case here. Yes as a safety improvement system it will work. Backing, speed, etc. But the intention is also production related, and the company intends to be ruthless in it's use. Sounds like you want people to buy a bag of crap as gold. Usual supervisor song and dance. I don't mean to bang you personally, I've watched 30+ years of this stuff come down the pike. It will be used and abused, and the guys that don't get it will be gone. Believe it or not.

Maybe you missed what I've posted before...

1500 drivers have been using the system for over a year. So far, minimal discipline. One termination that I'm aware of.

When you say "They intend to discipline for theft of time." I guess that's true. If the system shows blatent theft of time, yes we should discipline.

The intent of the system however is NOT to discipline.

It is NOT "way more than simply doing your job" as you say.

Fasten your seat belt
Close your bulkhead door
Minimize backing, especially in residential neighborhoods
Dont speed
Drive efficiently between stops
Don't violate lunch / break rules (including when, where, and how long)

You can't be disciplined for not remembering a simple delay. No one is worried about "the guy on the phone, or the driver stuck in traffic" as you say.

However, I've looked at a tremendous amount of telematics driver data from my area.

When I see a driver take a 2 hour lunch, or drive 8 miles between stops 1 mile apart, or driver 10 miles off area, I have a responsibility to discuss this with the driver.

I don't support a supervisor that abuses the system. You shouldn't support a driver that behaves in the way I just mentioned.

P-Man

 

[pretzel_man]

The problem I see it is you have the expectation that all the sups. are reasonable thinking people. We haven't even had the system for a month and threats for discipline have been made without anyone even knowing how to use the system. Maybe you live in a better world in your centers, but that isn't the case here. Yes as a safety improvement system it will work. Backing, speed, etc. But the intention is also production related, and the company intends to be ruthless in it's use. Sounds like you want people to buy a bag of crap as gold. Usual supervisor song and dance. I don't mean to bang you personally, I've watched 30+ years of this stuff come down the pike. It will be used and abused, and the guys that don't get it will be gone. Believe it or not.

I've been around 30 years as well. This is an excellent system. The intent IS to eliminate production problems as I mentioned in the last post. Its intent is NOT to be "ruthless" as you contend.

So far, (1500 driver days) the evidence backs up my claim. I don't know what your supervisors are going to do. I hope they do not abuse the system.

Also, from my view drivers can also use the system for their advantage. You can use it to ensure that one driver is not knit picked while others are allowed to violate policy.

Information is power. And it can be power for both UPS and the union.

I've seen the system used to prove that a driver lied about his / her actions. I've also seen it used to prove that a driver properly followed procedures.

It can work both ways. If its used poorly in your site, I don't condone that. This doesn't mean that the company intent is to "retaliate".

P-Man

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

I agree with your statement about information being power. I also agree that drivers will be able to use the information to vindicate themselves if they are given access to the information. It will be a simple matter for management to just hide what they don't want the drivers to know. I've been a steward for 28 of those 30 years and I've had better luck pulling teeth than getting management to release information they don't want people to know. Unfortunately the system is severly biased in it's use towards management. We will have to demand the information be released through the greivance procedure, too late to be effective for the prevention of management abuse. Would that your sale of the system was true, and again it may be where you are, but pardon me for being skeptical. So far in my experience everything we say and do is used against us. Why would I expect that to change now?

I've been around 30 years as well. This is an excellent system. The intent IS to eliminate production problems as I mentioned in the last post. Its intent is NOT to be "ruthless" as you contend.

So far, (1500 driver days) the evidence backs up my claim. I don't know what your supervisors are going to do. I hope they do not abuse the system.

Also, from my view drivers can also use the system for their advantage. You can use it to ensure that one driver is not knit picked while others are allowed to violate policy.

Information is power. And it can be power for both UPS and the union.

I've seen the system used to prove that a driver lied about his / her actions. I've also seen it used to prove that a driver properly followed procedures.

It can work both ways. If its used poorly in your site, I don't condone that. This doesn't mean that the company intent is to "retaliate".

P-Man

 

[soberups]

... The little problem you guys are missing is that the company can use this system to make any case they want. How many of you remember every detail of every day. They intend to discipline for theft of time. That time may be the guy on the phone, or the driver stuck in traffic etc. If they want you they can now get you. "

Whenever we are questioned about Telematics data, simply recite these three simple words;

"I dont recall"

They cant fire you for dishonesty if you keep your mouth shut. Your words cannot be twisted around if you decline to participate in the conversation. And the Telematics data by itself cannot be used for disciplinary purposes, per Article 6 of the national master agreement.

If the company wants to go after people for perceived theft-of-time issues, we can retaliate by simply shutting our brains off, delivering 100% according to EDD, and allowing the route to fall apart. EDD and PAS give us the ability to put total responsibility for the success or failure of the route right back into managements lap. They are the smart ones; they designed the system; they know at all times where we are, how many stops we have left, and the "optimimum" trace for delivering those stops as efficiently as possible. We are just dumb truck drivers and it would be foolish of us to question their superior intellect. Blind obedience and 100% compliance to managements directives takes all the stress and worry off of us. If they want us to be mindless drones who follow their instructions to the nth degree, it is now a simple matter for us to oblige them.

 

[Smhemi]

Peak season is going to be very interesting then going out with 300 stops and telematics

 

[hellfire]

Peak season is going to be very interesting then going out with 300 stops and telematics

yup,, gonna be interesting,, i wonder about the level of enforcement during peak-- how many of the older dudes here have been riding shot-gun with a on road or center manager on those ' need help covering this route you dont know ' type days and having the bulkhead door wide open, you standing there in front of the jump seat no seat belt on,,,, waiting to stop to go running to the door, sup havin no belt on gettin the next stop with the truck running,,,, methods are great in theory,, lets see how the production numbers are affected ,, that will decide if this IE nightmare goes company wide and stays permanent

 

[soberups]

yup,, gonna be interesting,, i wonder about the level of enforcement during peak--

Nothing has changed in terms of enforcement...in order to discipline a driver, management is going to have to be out on area making direct observations of your behavior. You could do half your route with the bulkhead door open and unless they go out and actually catch you in the act it doesnt matter what the Telematics report says. Its just a piece of paper. If your management has time, they might say something to you....and your response will simply be "I dont recall."

I'm not advocating working with the door open or violating any other safety rules. The reality, however, is that during peak there are going to be lots of Telematics reports printed out with lots of colored lines on maps indicating vehicles that moved with their doors open. Life will go on.

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

Your one more step down the road SoberUPS. Read Denver Brown and you'll find an article that says exactly what you are saying. I don't recall. I don't know what you mean. I'm a child of the seventies, I can't remember what happened 5 minutes ago, much less yesterday. I call it Smart Stupidity. It's the UPS way. Pass this information along will you?

Whenever we are questioned about Telematics data, simply recite these three simple words;

"I dont recall"

They cant fire you for dishonesty if you keep your mouth shut. Your words cannot be twisted around if you decline to participate in the conversation. And the Telematics data by itself cannot be used for disciplinary purposes, per Article 6 of the national master agreement.

If the company wants to go after people for perceived theft-of-time issues, we can retaliate by simply shutting our brains off, delivering 100% according to EDD, and allowing the route to fall apart. EDD and PAS give us the ability to put total responsibility for the success or failure of the route right back into managements lap. They are the smart ones; they designed the system; they know at all times where we are, how many stops we have left, and the "optimimum" trace for delivering those stops as efficiently as possible. We are just dumb truck drivers and it would be foolish of us to question their superior intellect. Blind obedience and 100% compliance to managements directives takes all the stress and worry off of us. If they want us to be mindless drones who follow their instructions to the nth degree, it is now a simple matter for us to oblige them.

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

Yah hellfire; they'll just pile the stuff in the cab. The seat belt sensor isn't on the jump seat so they'll just run and go. Also no one knows any better if no pulls up the information. That's what I was telling P-Man superdupersupervisor. The company controls the information. You will only see what they want you to see. Nothing more. There is no benefit to the driver unless they chose to give it to you, (which they won't if they want to get on your ass!)

yup,, gonna be interesting,, i wonder about the level of enforcement during peak-- how many of the older dudes here have been riding shot-gun with a on road or center manager on those ' need help covering this route you dont know ' type days and having the bulkhead door wide open, you standing there in front of the jump seat no seat belt on,,,, waiting to stop to go running to the door, sup havin no belt on gettin the next stop with the truck running,,,, methods are great in theory,, lets see how the production numbers are affected ,, that will decide if this IE nightmare goes company wide and stays permanent

 

[pretzel_man]

Yah hellfire; they'll just pile the stuff in the cab. The seat belt sensor isn't on the jump seat so they'll just run and go. Also no one knows any better if no pulls up the information. That's what I was telling P-Man superdupersupervisor. The company controls the information. You will only see what they want you to see. Nothing more. There is no benefit to the driver unless they chose to give it to you, (which they won't if they want to get on your ass!)

Of course you only seem to hear part of what I post.

1500 drivers using the system for over a year prove my point. The vast majority of the drivers have zero issues. There are a few that got disciplined and the majority of those corrected behavior.

Telematics also does more than monitor production. It does automotive analysis.

As I said, supervisor will use it inappropriately somewhere. I will NOT condone that. Post those occurences, and I will support your position.

I would expect you would support the management usage that corrects improper behavior.

Just do the job right. There will be no problem.

You can speculate all you want about what will happen. I would rather deal with the facts than speculation. Time will tell.

P-Man

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

You keep saying that P-Man, and I keep telling you it's already being abused. As in all things, there are good things. It will help with automotive mainteneance, we get that, it will help with looping and route efficiency, we get that also, but it will also make it possible to build cases on less than factual information, subject to interpretation by a few that want to make a case against someone they have a grudge, or negative opinion of. If you think that doesn't go on, and will not go on, then I have no respect for anything else you may have to say. This company has gotten far away from caring about it's employees since the day James E. Casey died. Since the ISP the company has become purely about money, and could give a crap about it's people. We have become a company run by a bunch of soul selling, money hungry, monsters that would screw their own mothers if it made them more cash. They continue to ruin people physically then refuse their compensation payments. They continue to ruin peoples family lives because it's cheaper to have fewer drivers working more hours. So please spare us the soft spoken, "they wouldn't do that atitude". If you believe that, you're either naive, or you think we are. By the way, everyone should note that it took 24 hours for things I wrote on these pages to come out of managements mouth. If you can't stand the heat, don't get in this fire. It may cost you your job!

Of course you only seem to hear part of what I post.

1500 drivers using the system for over a year prove my point. The vast majority of the drivers have zero issues. There are a few that got disciplined and the majority of those corrected behavior.

Telematics also does more than monitor production. It does automotive analysis.

As I said, supervisor will use it inappropriately somewhere. I will NOT condone that. Post those occurences, and I will support your position.

I would expect you would support the management usage that corrects improper behavior.

Just do the job right. There will be no problem.

You can speculate all you want about what will happen. I would rather deal with the facts than speculation. Time will tell.

P-Man

 

[pretzel_man]

You keep saying that P-Man, and I keep telling you it's already being abused. As in all things, there are good things. It will help with automotive mainteneance, we get that, it will help with looping and route efficiency, we get that also, but it will also make it possible to build cases on less than factual information, subject to interpretation by a few that want to make a case against someone they have a grudge, or negative opinion of. If you think that doesn't go on, and will not go on, then I have no respect for anything else you may have to say. This company has gotten far away from caring about it's employees since the day James E. Casey died. Since the ISP the company has become purely about money, and could give a crap about it's people. We have become a company run by a bunch of soul selling, money hungry, monsters that would screw their own mothers if it made them more cash. They continue to ruin people physically then refuse their compensation payments. They continue to ruin peoples family lives because it's cheaper to have fewer drivers working more hours. So please spare us the soft spoken, "they wouldn't do that atitude". If you believe that you're either naive, or you think we are.

Maybe Denver is the exception. Maybe you have the best drivers and worse management than everyone else.

I've seen many sites. There is no evidence of your following statement:

"possible to build cases on less than factual information, subject to interpretation by a few that want to make a case against someone they have a grudge, or negative opinion of."

The areas where Telematics is inaccurate is well known. There are contract provisions to protects against what you alledged.

Believe what you want. I know what I've seen and been taught from the corporate group.

Again, maybe Denver is differen than other places. Its been 10 years since I was there, so I don't know.

1500 drivers last year did not see what you are posting about.

P-Man

 

[DenverBrownDotCom]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Maybe Denver is the exception. Maybe you have the best drivers and worse management than everyone else.

I've seen many sites. There is no evidence of your following statement:

"possible to build cases on less than factual information, subject to interpretation by a few that want to make a case against someone they have a grudge, or negative opinion of."

The areas where Telematics is inaccurate is well known. There are contract provisions to protects against what you alledged.

Believe what you want. I know what I've seen and been taught from the corporate group.

Again, maybe Denver is differen than other places. Its been 10 years since I was there, so I don't know.

1500 drivers last year did not see what you are posting about.

P-Man

 

[UPSNewbie]

I've read your blog, and it's respectable. Here, you're trying to tell everyone, who AREN'T in the same place as you, that they are being blind-folded to the true meaning of telematics. Why do you keep throwing the blanket over the entire system, when it could just be misuse by YOUR management where YOU'RE located?

P-Man has already said, and it is inevitable, that there will be abuse by a few management teams. What about the people who are getting good out of this so far? Don't say "it's happening." Say "it's happening here."

 

[JimJimmyJames]

In defense of DenverBrownDotCom, the only time UPS is altruistic is when they give to the United Way. And even then, one has to question their ulterior motives.