Out of control!! Inexperienced Maintenance Mechanics Getting Killed by equipment on the job. What is going on Plant Engineering???

[Integrity]

Not really seeking personal satisfaction. I would just like to know what someone like you will do, being so close to the situation.

Not sure.

First I will probably get detailed Fatality Investigation from OSHA through FOIA.

The summary information posted on the OSHA site has no useful details for hazard analysis.

I’ll take it from there.

 

[Boywondr]

Not sure.

First I will probably get detailed Fatality Investigation from OSHA through FOIA.

The summary information posted on the OSHA site has no useful details for hazard analysis.

I’ll take it from there.

See if you can find out if their families sued the company. Now that would be serious for 1987.

 

[Redtag]

I agree, that sounds like a bad plan on managements part.

Has anyone addressed this with anyone that can actually do anything about it?

I doubt anything is going to change short term or possibly medium to long term supposedly we will be getting a new hub, they won’t invest anything into this building now. The company bought the land a few years ago for the new one and the last I heard they got the permits and I think the power company did some upgrades for it but Until I see construction start I won’t get my hopes up.

 

[Integrity]

See if you can find out if their families sued the company. Now that would be serious for 1987.

However interesting that would be, that is not my main interest.

My interest is finding out what happened so I can communicate it my maintenance contacts so as to minimize recurrence of this type incident.

Being blue collar workers my contacts are well aware of their propensity to go along and get along in the UPS Plant Engineering Culture.

The safest employees are often just a punchline in the jokes between the suck ups on the maintenance crew and their management team.

 

[Integrity]

I doubt anything is going to change short term or possibly medium to long term supposedly we will be getting a new hub, they won’t invest anything into this building now. The company bought the land a few years ago for the new one and the last I heard they got the permits and I think the power company did some upgrades for it but Until I see construction start I won’t get my hopes up.

The shop being a separate walled in area is actually in the contract.

 

[Redtag]

The shop being a separate walled in area is actually in the contract.

Teamster or IAM? We are IAM but the teamsters on the sort have been complaining for years about the fumes from the shop.

 

[Wally]

I wonder if we have the same amount of accidents currently vs the time before all the safety rules. It's been a while since we had someone sucked up into a big roller. The last one, they didn't find him for hours. He was spinning around in the belt-roller.

 

[quad decade guy]

I wonder if we have the same amount of accidents currently vs the time before all the safety rules. It's been a while since we had someone sucked up into a big roller. The last one, they didn't find him for hours. He was spinning around in the belt-roller.

When was this time? We've always had safety protocols. BTW, what are "safety rules"? Serious question(s).

 

[Integrity]

Teamster or IAM? We are IAM but the teamsters on the sort have been complaining for years about the fumes from the shop.

Teamsters
Article 18 Section 6.1

 

[Integrity]

I wonder if we have the same amount of accidents currently vs the time before all the safety rules. It's been a while since we had someone sucked up into a big roller. The last one, they didn't find him for hours. He was spinning around in the belt-roller.

When was this?

My bad. @quad decade guy already asked this.

 

[FEGuy]

I won't speak for anyone else. Dismissed? Yeah, the three dead guys....I don't know you, but you seem offended by these clear and REAL examples of fatalities and the implication of cause and fault. I wasn't there nor were you. But we have multiple fatalities. Now for "logical" arguments...We could say that perhaps human error(whatever that means), lack of proper supervision(whatever that means), deliberate, purposeful ignoring of safety protocols(by mgt. and hourly)(maybe all of these) were the cause. Logical? Seems so.

Pages and pages could be filled here about safety protocol violations in PE, Automotive, Aviation and Operations. Hell, I bet we got bad stuff happening in Corporate. I encourage you to just spend a few minutes observing ANY operation in a hub or outside. Just stand off to the side and watch. You will be a believer.

Speaking of logical arguments, then how did these fatalities happen? Something happened. You act like nothing did. You just attack the reporter(who also has an opinion)(broad as it may be). So, you have been dismissive of fault. Logically, what happened? I know there is a chain of events leading to these deaths(involving hourly and mgt.). So, tell us exactly and precisely WHAT HAPPENED?

As with "@Integrity", you probably should do some research on how to craft a logical argument. Yeah, it's a real thing. Learn how to do it and these little back and forths will be much more meaningful. When one makes a claim, they need to present the evidence to support the claim. It's simple. The people who question such a claim (apparently some call that an "attack", go figure) are doing simply that, questioning. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's all there is to it. The only thing I can agree with in your post is the statement that you don't know me. Nope, you do not. And just for the record, your claim that I act as nothing happened is pure BS. Copy and paste where I said anything of the sort. How do you even take yourself seriously when you post junk like that?
Tragic fatalities occur, and wild accusations are hurled blaming hourlies, management, lack of procedures, lack of "integrity."
You know none of that for a fact in any of these cases. "I know a guy in PE who said he saw..." is pure hearsay.
Anyone making claims bears the burden of proving those claims or it's just a bunch of gossip. And actually, at the end of the day, that's all this board is, a bunch of gossip.
Disagree all you want, you are free to do so.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

As with "@Integrity", you probably should do some research on how to craft a logical argument. Yeah, it's a real thing. Learn how to do it and these little back and forths will be much more meaningful. When one makes a claim, they need to present the evidence to support the claim. It's simple. The people who question such a claim (apparently some call that an "attack", go figure) are doing simply that, questioning. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's all there is to it. The only thing I can agree with in your post is the statement that you don't know me. Nope, you do not. And just for the record, your claim that I act as nothing happened is pure BS. Copy and paste where I said anything of the sort. How do you even take yourself seriously when you post junk like that?
Tragic fatalities occur, and wild accusations are hurled blaming hourlies, management, lack of procedures, lack of "integrity."
You know none of that for a fact in any of these cases. "I know a guy in PE who said he saw..." is pure hearsay.
Anyone making claims bears the burden of proving those claims or it's just a bunch of gossip. And actually, at the end of the day, that's all this board is, a bunch of gossip.
Disagree all you want, you are free to do so.

I like to think that there's as much speculation and conjecture as gossip on these boards. You can also make logical arguments using deductive reasoning, but if you are trying to prove a specific claim versus talking generally about amorphous concepts, like safety culture, then evidence is important.

I think @Integrity is trying to use these examples to make a claim about the state of the saftey culture at UPS in general, then, upon stipulation of those claims, is trying to deduce specific causes of the problems. The entire premise underpinning his logic is flawed, because it is based on this idea that all risk can and should be eliminated. There is risk inherent in any action, even inaction. It is impossible to eliminate risk, the best we can hope for is to minimize. But with that in mind, people who think this way are inclined to believe that risk can always be minimized further. It helps when people can come to agreement that there is an optimal amount of risk, and to strive for that, and understand that, once the optimal is reached, any further efforts to improve safety will actually degrade it.

That is the state we are in. People believe the company and management will not allow them to come to harm, so they don't take responsibility for their own safety.

 

[Integrity]

As with "@Integrity", you probably should do some research on how to craft a logical argument. Yeah, it's a real thing. Learn how to do it and these little back and forths will be much more meaningful. When one makes a claim, they need to present the evidence to support the claim. It's simple. The people who question such a claim (apparently some call that an "attack", go figure) are doing simply that, questioning. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's all there is to it. The only thing I can agree with in your post is the statement that you don't know me. Nope, you do not. And just for the record, your claim that I act as nothing happened is pure BS. Copy and paste where I said anything of the sort. How do you even take yourself seriously when you post junk like that?
Tragic fatalities occur, and wild accusations are hurled blaming hourlies, management, lack of procedures, lack of "integrity."
You know none of that for a fact in any of these cases. "I know a guy in PE who said he saw..." is pure hearsay.
Anyone making claims bears the burden of proving those claims or it's just a bunch of gossip. And actually, at the end of the day, that's all this board is, a bunch of gossip.
Disagree all you want, you are free to do so.

Ok. I will disagree. This is not court. Discuss in any manner you want. Accept whatever logical argument you want or not.

Hearsay counts here.

Your affirmation is not needed nor will it change the fact of mine and many others experiences over the years. That generally speaking the ethical culture along with the safety culture at UPS at large and specifically the UPS Plant Engineering Dept. lacks integrity in many grievous ways.

 

[Integrity]

I like to think that there's as much speculation and conjecture as gossip on these boards. You can also make logical arguments using deductive reasoning, but if you are trying to prove a specific claim versus talking generally about amorphous concepts, like safety culture, then evidence is important.

I think @Integrity is trying to use these examples to make a claim about the state of the saftey culture at UPS in general, then, upon stipulation of those claims, is trying to deduce specific causes of the problems. The entire premise underpinning his logic is flawed, because it is based on this idea that all risk can and should be eliminated. There is risk inherent in any action, even inaction. It is impossible to eliminate risk, the best we can hope for is to minimize. But with that in mind, people who think this way are inclined to believe that risk can always be minimized further. It helps when people can come to agreement that there is an optimal amount of risk, and to strive for that, and understand that, once the optimal is reached, any further efforts to improve safety will actually degrade it.

That is the state we are in. People believe the company and management will not allow them to come to harm, so they don't take responsibility for their own safety.

Your assessment of Integrity with regards to this discussion thread is flawed.

Nice post though.

 

[Wally]

When was this?

My bad. @quad decade guy already asked this.

I can't recall exactly when. I do believe it was in the Meadowland hub.

 

[Integrity]

I can't recall exactly when. I do believe it was in the Meadowland hub.

Thanks.

Was it a fatality?

 

[Wally]

Thanks.

Was it a fatality?

Oh yea. The dude was rolling around the belt.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Your assessment of Integrity with regards to this discussion thread is flawed.

Fair enough.

 

[Maple Grove MN Driver]

The integrity guy just spouts off nonsense with no examples to collaborate his/her statements.

So he must be management

 

[Integrity]

So he must be management

That is not accurate.