Pro-Gun / Hunting Thread

[over9five]

"..while the Bill Of Rights is being taken away from them right before their eyes."

What are you talking about?? The guns being taken from law-abiding citizens in New Orleans?

That was done by locals yocals, and has since been reversed as being unconstitutional.

The links you post, and the degrading terms you use just prove how hateful you are. Do you know what an idiot you look like to anyone reading your trash? Hate-mongerer is what comes to my mind. How anyone can even have the time to find all this anti-Bush crap astounds me. Most of us come here to say what we're thinking. NOT to post dozens (hundreds?) of links to questionable articles and hateful anti-Bush cartoons.

Sit down for a moment and think about yourself. If you're honest, I don't think you'll like what you see.

 

[susiedriver]

dBoy,

What is your point? That German POW's were mistreated after WWII? More died after the war than on the Westrn Front? That is probably true, though no accurate, unbiased figures exist, but since about 100,000 Germans were killed, wounded or captured at the Battle of the Bulge, I would think that is a 'reasonable' assumption.

I would like to point out that the Germans killed more non-Jewish people in The Holocaust than their total military casualties in WWII.

 

[wkmac]

"I sure don't have a problem with attempting to screen out the mentally strange."

Well in this day and age in America that would screen out just about everyone!

 

[ok2bclever]

Well it does seem to get that way more and more each day.

 

[wkmac]

"In dont think any ordinary citizen should own a military weapon, however."

All firearms were at some point military weapons as were swords, spears and clubs. That IMO should never be at issue as to who should own what.

As to the guarantee of the 2nd amendment to own whatever weapon you choose that is of great debate and it generally hinges on which side of the gun issue you place yourself. It also depends on how you feel about the surroundings and type of people you live and how you feel about that. One person here spoke of guns and carjackings so either they have experienced this firsthand in some respect or live in an area where this happens. They could also just live an over paranoid life in general too. We had a recent event near us where a woman was carjacked and kidnapped and the perpatrator wrecked the vehicle killling the woman. Luckily a witness who gave chase followed the man as he fled from the scene on foot and when the perp. turned a gun towards the witness, the witness with his own gun sent the sorry slim to his eternal celestial dirt nap. No changes against the witness either. Some would say this proves their point for gun control but I could also use IMO the same irrational illogic and say well the man was from New Orleans, which he was, so we need to ban people from New Orleans from leaving the NO area. Or I could also make the stupid case of the man's race and suggest all from that race should be banned from gun ownership. how about his religion? Maybe he was Christian so all christians are prohibited from owning a gun. Where do we stop with the illogic or do we?

The way I see the 2nd amendment and how the federal gov't sets it's public policy regarding firearms to me is a larger insight on how it would position itself in the more important arena of persoanl rights in general such as freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom in yourself and personal effects, etc. IMO, both major political parties controlling national politics are found very wanting in this area. If one single right is treated as some politically sacrifical lamb upon the alter of public policy then no right is safe from the priests of State in their blood letting.

IMO we are at a crossroads in American history in which we must sit back and begin to come face to face with those words from the Declaration of Independence is which the following was said: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...." The key words there are unalienable rights which in due course really means that all men (women too for those anal about PC) have natural rights that govt's however noble the cause or despotic can't alienate the person from those rights nad it's a violation beyond the laws and precepts of mankind. A person is granted the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness not by govt's or man created documents or laws but rather by virtue of the fact that there is some higher natural or supernatural power having granted each of us those rights and that unless in our individual actions we transgress in some form on another rights, then our right to pursue within the framework above should in no way come into question when we pursue them in the best way we believe meets our needs of liberty and happiness. This not only applies for guns but also speech, religion, treatment from men towards women and women towards men and from one race of human to another. In this regard all are equal and have the same station to this principle no matter their station in the life of mankind on this earth.

We are living in an age where the question becomes do we surrender all to the all powerful State so that it may protect itself and thus forth protect us or do we retreat away from centralized and concentrated power in the hands of the State and accept the fact that in doing so there are and will always be risks in traveling our course in life? Not a simple and easy answer is it but one we are at some point going to have to face.

On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), letter to Judge William Johnson, (from Monticello, June 12, 1823)

If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.
George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

 

[wkmac]

Excellent piece Judge! Last paragraph sez it all IMO and glad to see someone from the 3rd branch of gov't understand the federal limitations on the police powers. Sadly we didn't need the 14th amendment but rather removal of a few sentences within the Consitution itself and the public acknowlegement that unalienable rights do in fact extend to all mankind and not to a priviledge class or race of people. JMO.

14th amendment wasn't about righting a wrong but rather about creating the type of growing governmental monster we face today. It will only get worst whether it's a demopublican or republicrat who owns the Halls of Congress or lives in the White House!

 

[susiedriver]

wkmac,

I have to stand by my 'no military weapon' clause. There is no reason for a citizen to have an AK and a few large capacity clips in the house.I would think that the shortest barrel shotgun you can legally own, and a pistol should be enough protection for any homeowner. If you need more than that, then you have other problems, IMO.

I agree with the rest of your post. One of those inalienable rights has been the right to privacy. I wouldn't be suprised to see that 'redefined' in the near future.

Bear in mind that all those 'rights' pointed out by the Founding Fathers didn't really count the same for all people, if you know what I mean.

We have sacrificed quite a few of our 'freedoms' since 2001; and I, for one, am not pleased with that.

 

[dannyboy]

I am currently working on a book on the history of the family. Makes some interesting reading.

Susie sweetie, the fact that the Germans killed more non jews during the war is a fact. And when people say they killed 6 or 8 million jews during the war, well there were not that many Jews in Europe during that time.

As for records, try the army. They kept all the records and in great detail. The book has copies of the entries of the camps. HArd read because of all of the copies of documents.

Bottom line is that the discussion drifted from the statement that the germans invading countries took great pains to disarm the population while pressing on. This is a fact.

Clever, FYI he, my father-in-law was in Korea for two tours. Got about everything you could get with the exception of the purple heart.

Mother was french, and had first hand knowledge of what happened during that time.

Father was Austrian. AT the age of 13 the NAzis came in the middle of the night and forced him at gunpoint to fight the Russians. My dad, being somewhat stupid, told them he wanted to go with my grandfather. They took him also and gave him a wooden gun. Made him go to the front lines and press attacks so the russians would waste ammo on the kids that looked like they were armed.

So I guess I have somewhat of a colorful family history, one filled with a lot of suffering, death, but also of hope and success. And for those that would make something of it, rumor has it that the Marque De Sade was in the family line somewhere.

d

 

[susiedriver]

dBoy,
Bottom line is that the discussion drifted from the statement that the germans invading countries took great pains to disarm the population while pressing on. This is a fact.

Isn't that what invading armies do? Disarm the conquered?

FWIW:
Holocaust victims:
* 5.16.0 million Jews, including 3.03.5
million Polish Jews
* 2.53.5 million Gentile Poles
* 200,000800,000 Roma & Sinti
* 200,000300,000 people with disabilities
* 10,00025,000 gay men
* 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
(from Wikipedia)

Also, most of the records from Allied POW camps were apparently destroyed in the late 1940's. There are varying views on how many German POWs died in Allied camps. Certainly many died, and some were mistreated. Same thing happens today.

 

[dannyboy]

"Isn't that what invading armies do? Disarm the conquered?"

"Your understanding of history leaves a bit to be desired. Try to get your information from a real history book, instead of an NRA distilled version of history."

Boy you sure can flip flop on issues. First you say I cant know what I am talking about and state that what I say comes from a skewed history book, and then you say what they hell, that is what armies do all the time?

Susie, pick a side, believe in that side and sick with it.

FWIW:
Holocaust victims:
* 5.16.0 million Jews, including 3.03.5
million Polish Jews
* 2.53.5 million Gentile Poles
* 200,000800,000 Roma & Sinti
* 200,000300,000 people with disabilities
* 10,00025,000 gay men
* 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
(from Wikipedia)

Well interesting enough, each history book, each blankety-pedia's, have their own numbers that were entered. Bottom line is that no one knows. Each one of your numbers are just guesses, some with a range of 4 times. So they just dont know. All they can do is give you their best guess. And they dont mention anything about the Russian people do they? The thousands upon thousands of Russians that they referred to as underpeople.

"Also, most of the records from Allied POW camps were apparently destroyed in the late 1940's. There are varying views on how many German POWs died in Allied camps."

Really? How convenient. A military that has many documents that deal with the American Revolution over 200 years ago, but yet looses some the records on the largest military campaign ever within 5 years of the war? I wonder how that would/could ever happen.

Further more; your reference to POW camps is interesting. POW camps fall under the Geneva Convention and are inspected for the mistreatment of POWs. But the vast majorities were confined in DEF camps instead. That placed them in a no mans land without any rights or supervision of any type by any authority. Many of these camps had no buildings for the people held inside to use as shelter. The only water that was available was from the latrine that was uphill from where they were stored. It was so bad that the British and French Governments even complained formally.

Try 950,000 to 2.5 million in three years. And for some reason many of them the old, women and children. People that were not combatants.


Certainly many died, and some were mistreated. Same thing happens today."

I guess that falls under your heading as happens?

So where are we holding millions of Pows today? And show me where there are thousands dieing every day in our POW camps.

Get real!

d

 

[wkmac]

"Bear in mind that all those 'rights' pointed out by the Founding Fathers didn't really count the same for all people, if you know what I mean."

Bear in mind, in an indirect way I believe I acknowledged that. I also believe by not extending to all peoples the priciple of ualienable rights, our founding fathers may have unknowingly set in motion the chain of events that has led to a gov't that daily tramples over the very priciples of freedom our founding father fought and died for.

As for 9/11, it just provided the convenient mechanism of trampling over the constitution because that trampling has been going on IMO for nearly 150 years but it has accelerated since the early 1900's and has further expanded in the last few years. I believe even if 9/11 hadn't happen some aspects of the patriot act would have happened anyway as the gov't would have used the joke of the so-called war on drugs or some other gov't excuse to do it anyway.

If we really believe this quarter presents such a threat to us and our way of life (and in some respects I do believe this to be true) then we should just nuke the bastards and get it all over with and move on. We should be good neighbors and friends and we've made our mistakes no doubt and not always fessed up either. But I like being friends and getting along and all that but like the old saying goes "Don't Thread on Me!"

Is it not ironic the symbol of that was the rattlesnake who is content to warm in the sun and harm nothing if not bothered but will strike with deadly force if assaulted in his space or person. Even the rattlesnake is a libertarian at heart. LOL!

 

[susiedriver]

dBoy,
you said:
Try 950,000 to 2.5 million in three years. And for some reason many of them the old, women and children. People that were not combatants.

Can you cite a source for this that is reliable? The work of James Bacque has been largely discredited by legitimate historians, and his neo-Nazi revisionism seems to be what you are citing. The real figures seem to be in the tens of thousands(40-50), which is still too many.

You want Russian casualties? More than anyone else; not a secret, 22 million, 7 million civilian.

As far as my holocaust figures, those are widely accepted by most people. They are certainly not a quarter of that.

I never said we were holding 'millions' of POWs today. We are holding thousands of 'enemy combatants', and apparently have refined our mistreatment of them.

You see, dBoy, you consistently spout off 'facts' that have footing in reality. Like your fact in another thread that if two drivers marry, one has to resign. Total BS, and has been at least since the 1970's, like most of what you say.



}

 

[susiedriver]

wkmac,

Once again, I agree with most of what you say. The 'War on Drugs' is being joined by the new 'War on Porn'.

Where I disagree with you is on what we should do to lessen the threat extremists have on the USA. It seems to me that the threat would practically disappear if we were not 'foriegn occupiers'. The fact that we are building 'enduring' bases throughout the Mid-East has enflamed the radical populous of that region.

Perhaps a re-reading of The Seven Pillars Of Wisdom is in order.

 

[dannyboy]

Susie honey, show me where you find that it was Ok for two drivers to be married to each other is OK since the 70's. WE had a couple that one had to quit as late as 1981.

Common sweetie, show your links to the UPS site where it supports what you are saying. IF so, I believe that Ron and Sharron are due a big lawsuit against ups for discrimination.

As to my posts on what happened after the war, I had two uncles that made it through, and three didnt. The documentation of what went on there is true. Like I posted, the victor writes the history books.

Funny how leftists in the country feel that an appology is owed to the Japanese for the 70 some thousand that were killed during the two nuke droppings, but yet the many hundreds of thousands that were killed in dresden during those raids mean nothing. Interesting how historians choose what they want to dwell on and what they think is important.


d

 

[wkmac]

Also Susie little is ever said of the fact that Osama via the Afghan resistance to Soviet occupation was CIA backed and trained as well as the fact that Saddam was also a CIA lapdog for many years until the dog bit the master's hand. Just as our own domestic government has from time to time had those Keystone Cop moments so has the CIA. Unlike the domestic government, with CIA we just rarely hear about it or we have a media to afraid to reveal the truth as the chief of police will call the editor and have that reporter pulled from the beat and thus end the reporters career. Say it ain't so!

That's another reason I said, "We should be good neighbors and friends and we've made our mistakes no doubt and not always fessed up either."

 

[susiedriver]

dBoy,
Okay, let's have a contest to see who committed the worse atrocity.. Dresden, Hiroshima, Tokyo, Rape of Nanking, The Holocaust, Unit 731, Bataan Death March, the list is pretty darn long. 50 million people were killed. Are you a Nazi apologist?

As far as married drivers go, I personally know of a couple from the mid 70's, as well as three more in the last twenty-five years. Drivers & managers married are a no-no. Not even supposed to socialize.

My husband and I were both drivers, in the same center at the same time. So I guess I have more than the anecdotal evidence you site in all your arguments.

You may think you are the final authority on all matters; you really seem to just be a 'legend in your own mind'.

 

[wkmac]

let's have a contest to see who committed the worse atrocity.. Dresden, Hiroshima, Tokyo, Rape of Nanking, The Holocaust, Unit 731, Bataan Death March, the list is pretty darn long.

Final answer? Mankind. Our history is loaded with death and destruction and the only reason the numbers go up as to a single event is the technology of death becomes more and more effective over a larger and larger area. Had any of the Great Empires of the past or even the lesser European empires of the last 500 to 1000 years had this technology any of those named events would have been "Also Rans!"

Also regarding the War on Porn, what specifically are you speaking about? Not saying there is or isn't one but we hear much on the War on Drugs but I've never heard of a War on Porn other than various local communities setting various standards for themselves or maybe the local politicians fighting for the best seat at the local porn movie theater. Now that's war!

I may or may not agree with it but I do believe these are local matters and should be addressed locally. What you and your neighbors do in your neighborhood is up to you and it is no business of the federal gov't to go in my name and tell you that you can't. Same for my neighborhood if the roles were reversed.

JMO.

 

[susiedriver]

wkmac,

Do a Google for "war on porn" fbi.

It seems to be a priority for the DOJ. This adminstration releases news when it is least likely to be noticed. Like the current arrest of White House official, Safavian. It appears as though we have Delay, Frist and Rove all involved in possible criminal probes.

 

[susiedriver]

wkmac,

Speaking of porn, have you heard about the site that gives free access to US soldiers for allegedly trading pictures of dead Iraqis & Afghanis for porn? That should earn us some 'political capital' in the Islamic press.

The decidely far-left americablog broke the story, but it has been confirmed by The Hotline, which is a DC publication of The National Journal.

geesh!

 

[dannyboy]

Susie

While very sick and distasteful, the action you posted about is probably not against the law. Hopefully that will change.

As far as porn goes, unfortunatly the right to freedom of speach and expression has been violated and stretched to even cover the crap that is produced and called art/informational video/or entertainment. But the exploitation of women has been around since the begining of time, and with the vast amount of money involved, changing the way the world looks at it will be hard.

BTW, privately email me the names of the employees that were allowed to stay and work together. Seriously. If you can document that it was allowed previously to the case I posted, that will give me what I would need to possibly start some legal action.

d

(Message edited by dannyboy on September 26, 2005)