Production termination!

[dannyboy]

Exactly how much did you know as a steward 18 months in to the job? I ask because i have been a steward on and off for 13 years. And it was not up to about 5 years ago or so, were i was really taught everything that i know today.

Red my dear friend, I look in the mirror every morning and than God for the bountiful blessings I have received. Pretty good health, a decent roof over my head, 16 acres so I can have neighbors, but not too close. A wonderful wife and a bunch of kids......I have the American dream.

And I dont ever forget what got me here either. From when I started as a kid on the farm picking tomato's for Heinz to slinging pizza, to the best career of delivering. And a lot of other jobs in between.

But at no time did I ever think that I was an expert at what I was doing early on. The only reason I even became a steward is that I knew what the language in the book actually meant. Even though I had the steward, I had to tell him what to say.

So I asked to be "trained" and for years, before I took one to the office, would meet with at least one other steward to bounce things around. And of course, I loved to listen and learn from the BA.

Funny thing about ours. He was a part timer on the car wash. We had enough of the good ole boy Teamsters crap, and Mike opted to run for the job. Ran against the ole BA and his "feeder Mafia". Beat the pants off of him. Mike turned our local around from being near bankruptcy, losing members, incestuous click to what it is now. He spent a lot of time learning as he went too. Funny too, considering some of the side bars on this thread. He has never had a full time job and never delivered his first package. But he is one of the most knowledgeable BA's we have ever had on all aspects of UPS.

Kinda like the old saying about "you dont have to actually have Aids to be an expert on Aids"

Anyway, you claim this guy does not have a clue as to what he is doing, but yet he is rabble rousing (organizing I think the union called it), and trying to take over the union himself? And he doesn't have a clue as to what he is doing? Its no wonder the teamsters are in trouble.

Now this guy might be a salt of the earth good guy. And the Teamsters sure do need reforming. But he needs to get a grip on reality.

From what I read, it sounds like he ran the show. All he could offer up was his opinion of what the contract said about production, which is very little. And it was his intent to push this issue to the top, with a great win for him so every one would know how good he really is.

Yup, my first post said I think the union should be ashamed to bring something like this to an arbitrator. And still think so.

But from the "official union statement" to the grievant's statement, there was no difference. It was all "they are after me because I am such a good Teamster" and "production numbers at UPS have no meaning, and therefor can not be used to fire anyone."

Any BA that has been past the local hearing would know that this is not enough. Why did they not do more. Maybe because Mr I know it all didn't want to thin down his message. He wanted the victory on his terms. He set the stage, he set the rules, he wanted everyone else to see things his way.

And you know the rest of the story.

d

 

[dannyboy]

Oh and one more quickie

So please do not compare an 18 month steward that has 12 years with the company to some one like your self that had put in enough time to retiree and one who has seen everything that ups could throw at someone, 18 months is not enough time to understand and learn. I still learn as a steward on a daily basis! One never stops learning!

Yup, all I can say is I am glad that the job his inexperience lost was his, not someone that blindly believed in his BS.

d

 

[HEFFERNAN]

RED

Just need one answer from you !!

Who do you feel was to blame for the termination ?

Driver/Steward , Local Union , or UPS

If its the union's fault, why was this driver even allowed to open his mouth !!!

 

[New Englander]

Glad I pegged this guy as an absolute tool from the start!

 

[govols019]

You want a cookie?

 

[705red]

RED

Just need one answer from you !!

Who do you feel was to blame for the termination ?

Driver/Steward , Local Union , or UPS

If its the union's fault, why was this driver even allowed to open his mouth !!!

This is my opinion, the driver was stuck hard on his position that he could not be terminated for production, like many on here have believed for so long. Where have we heard this from? Obviously the union has been the spokes man for that.

Now the arbitrator had taken all of his discipline in to account when she ruled. The union should never had allowed an insubordination suspension to stick when he was acting as a steward at the time that he received it. If i was ever suspended while acting as a steward and the union did not back me, i would resign as soon as i came back to work!

The driver has some blame in this as well, i cant say that i agree with a termination for it. But as a young steward when you ask a question about something that you are not sure off, you tend to believe what you have been told, especially if its from your agent. Unless you have handles a case in the past, this is were the learning from experience comes in at.

To comment on his performance is hard, its obvious that we were not there, have no idea what kind of route he has, or if anything through his day as in road construction, parades, etc happened. But i can average 25 to 30 stops an hour in 2 of my residential areas at the end of my route, but if i get the split area it can easily go back down to 15 stops an hour because of long driveways and longer drives in between stops.

Bottom line, i believe the union mislead him to his beliefs, i believe they came unprepared and did not defend him properly.

Danny you said that maybe the union argued the case the way the grievant wanted to, have you ever seen that happen?

I ask this only because its a lot of money for the local to spend knowing they will lose going in. I also have had to argue with grievants about cases that their jobs were on the line, never did i tell them to lie, but i have had to tell them that the point they want to argue would not help them and go at it my way.

 

[705red]

Glad I pegged this guy as an absolute tool from the start!

Does this mean that when you go to work tomorrow you will not be sticking your head up your bosses arse?

 

[tieguy]

If i want to raise my voice to stress a fact or to call the company's bs, i will! If a sup/man tries to direct me to change my direction of an interview, i will not. When i am a steward i no longer am your employee and i am now a representative of the teamsters and the contract on behalf of the members. You can not tell me what to do, and if you want to bully around the grievant, i hope you brought your big boy pants to work with you!

I can use vulgarity legally when acting as a steward and have used it, i know were the line is, just as long as i do not threaten you or go way off base describing my personal feelings for you wishing harm to you

I was just in the office last thursday, were i exchanged words with the worst supervisor i have ever had the privilege of working for. When the manager told me i will show his supervisor respect, i replied respect is earned and if its not earned one will not get it. We got in to a argument over this respect issue until i got tossed out of the office.

I will not respect a title, respect is earned!

interesting that you say that . I had a steward file a grievance against me for abusive language when we had one of those heated discussions. He was every bit as loud as I was just used a few less friend-bombs.

 

[dannyboy]

Danny you said that maybe the union argued the case the way the grievant wanted to, have you ever seen that happen?

I ask this only because its a lot of money for the local to spend knowing they will lose going in. I also have had to argue with grievants about cases that their jobs were on the line, never did i tell them to lie, but i have had to tell them that the point they want to argue would not help them and go at it my way.

Red

Yup, seen it several times. Gotta let the dummies do it to themselves. Even when we know better.

Kinda like a doc. We can only tell them what the problem is and how to fix it. Allowing us to use our knowledge to fix it is up to them. They refuse, we stand by and watch them die. Sometimes, if it is not too late, we try to help if they see the error.

As far as getting one to lie, me either. But I have had to tell a bunch to shut up and not say another word without my permission. Its funny how when some people talk, they can open up several other cans of worms they really dont want opened.

I suspect that is why the lawyer for the grievant recommended not to air the contents of the tape he made. Remember, get it admitted, and it is all there. And UPS can use it against you as well. So there must have been some damning content.

Anyway, sorry if this guy was a friend. Maybe he was used. Best I can tell, he was warned by some that saw what was going to happen. Others like 804 just stood by and let him self destruct.

Better to win a bunch of smaller fights and live to fight again, than to try to win the war all in one fight and lose. Especially when you dont have any ammo.

d

 

[New Englander]

Does this mean that when you go to work tomorrow you will not be sticking your head up your bosses arse?

Really no idea where you deduced that from. In all honesty....how could you want someone so obviously stupid to be a steward? How could you want someone who obviously had little work ethic even employed at UPS?

If you find it easy to obviously and blatantly steal (time) from the company, ethics are far from a priority. Good riddance.

 

[New Englander]

You want a cookie?

Chewy chocolate chip is my favorite.

 

[HEFFERNAN]

Better to win a bunch of smaller fights and live to fight again, than to try to win the war all in one fight and lose. Especially when you dont have any ammo.

It looks like he did win a bunch of little fights. He was lucky to still have a job after each one of the warnings and suspensions on that long list.

100% with Danny

RED - I was told that when you are in the offfice for discipline reasons, you let the steward talk for you. How was this guy talking at his arbitration hearing?

 

[trplnkl]

Just because you are a Steward, Sup, center manager, Division or District Manager, or the CEO yourself does not give you the ability to use this type of language to another employee, especially in this instance to a superior.

Brownsuit, I was pretty much with you until the last part. IT does not matter what position a person holds in the company. No especially to the matter at all. The people that clean the toilets deserve the same repect(maybe more) that the CEO of this comapny does.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

RED - I was told that when you are in the offfice for discipline reasons, you let the steward talk for you. How was this guy talking at his arbitration hearing?

If I am in the office for whatever reason it is because I did or said something that warranted me being there. My last visit was a couple of years ago. I had backed up to the belt and began to unload my NDA when one of the metro guys took over for me, which is not uncommon. Well, he mistook a tote box full of NDA letters for an empty tote and never offloaded it and 15-20 NDA pkgs never made service. I received a verbal warning and rather than sit there and argue I simply took it as a lesson learned and to this day I make sure that I unload all of my NDA, whether the metro kid is there or not. The steward was in there for the meeting and here is what he had to say--"Dave, you have to unload your air." Well, duh. What he should have said was, "Don't rely on or assume someone else will do your job for you."


Heff's question was a good one. It sounds as though this guy should have sat there and kept his mouth shut but it also sounds as though it were just a matter of time before he was fired, whether at this panel or a subsequent one.

 

[dannyboy]

Heffe

At the hearings, you as the grievant are asked to testify. It is your testimony against the company. The union can help, the BA and or lawyer can object to questions or conversations that are not relevant, and so on, much like a trial in a court room.

The difference here is this guy did not prepare. He did so either out of a sense of over confidence in is position, or he made decisions that he did not think through.

He also seems to believe that any means justify the end. I dont.

As for heated exchanges with management, Ive had them as well. I have found that the first person that starts either yelling or cussing did so because they were losing the argument. Much like civil discussions here that turn into flames. The subject is no longer the issue, it is the personalities of the people involved.

Using this, every time a sup started going off on me, I knew I had him where I wanted him, out of control. After a few seconds, I declared the meeting over and would leave. Funny thing that, a shop steward telling management the meeting is over. That means they are not in control anymore, and they hate that.

Grown men that have a lick of intelligence should not have to rely on this type of behavior when negotiating.

Just my humble experiences.

Suit, I think that was a typo on your part. From what I know of you, I would not think you think you are superior to any of us here?


d

 

[mathematics]

Gov,
that would be correct, if they based the SPORH in a direct correlation with the over/under standards.
I have met my SPORH and have been 1 hr over allowed.
When the two correlate, then the company might (and I use the term "might" loosely) have a case.
As a matter of fact, I increased my SPORH and PAS/EDD implementation decreased my time allowance.
How can it be that IE sets the time standards, the center sets SPORH and the driver is at fault for not meeting expectations?
Talk about too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

IE sets all standards, including SPORH. They work with managers to come up with a plan, though.

 

[local804]

Glad I pegged this guy as an absolute tool from the start!

You Sir, must have been head of your class!

 

[local804]

Also, when presenting data at a hearing like that, its nice to have real data to present. All he did was suggest that drivers had part of his route, that they gave others stops. He presented no evidence. None. He just figured his BS methods at the local hearings would win the arbitrator over as well.

Obviously, his woman charming skills are a bit off as well.

d

Danny,
Alot of his "data" was not allowed in the hearing including the drivers delivery records and the his "black book". There was a little problem with his lawyer that he had for this whole time, he was replaced one day before the final hearing. I hear a little more daily on this case daily and was not as close a friend with him as you may think. I do not agree with the production aspect of this driver but will agree he was not a favorite of UPS and had alot of attention on him well before his OJS. You state that his 150 grievances(not sure exact number) was not alot compared to yours? I could bet that in the 6 months period that he wrote them, his 150 was more than the centers in the whole district combined. He was a problem for UPS now and a problem for the Teamsters in 10 months. Like I said, I do not agree with his work ethics (if he slowed down on purpose) but this battle could have been different if he had the right BA in there from the start(9 months ago).

 

[HEFFERNAN]

Heffe

At the hearings, you as the grievant are asked to testify. It is your testimony against the company. The union can help, the BA and or lawyer can object to questions or conversations that are not relevant, and so on, much like a trial in a court room.

Thanks Danny

I just assumed if it went into that scenario, the union's lawyers would be the ones talking. I understand that the driver would be asked questions and have to answer but they would be scripted answers furnished by the attorneys.

I feel the only course for action is to sue the local for not being prepared in his best interests. If he can somehow prove that it did occur, then he might have a shot (not for UPS employment but monetary reward).

The union can very well say that when the driver/steward opened his mouth in front of the arbitrator, his case was lost in no fault to the lawyers. That's why I felt keeping the piehole closed would be #1 priority.

I don't think this is a lesson for the regular everyday UPS driver. This is a lesson for the union leaders and stewards to warn people like this that you have to show signs of being a productive employee. Upstate is right, eventually the guy was throwing himself off the cliff.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

There was a little problem with his lawyer that he had for this whole time, he was replaced one day before the final hearing.

Wouldn't this have allowed him to ask for a continuance so that his new lawyer could get up to speed?