New Englander
Well-Known Member
No it is stupid. If an entire center's production is effected one one day. UPS isn't going to use that day as an offense for termination. Especially if there is a sincere safety reason for it.
Production termination!
- Thread starter 705red
- Start date
No it is stupid. If an entire center's production is effected one one day. UPS isn't going to use that day as an offense for termination. Especially if there is a sincere safety reason for it.
stevetheupsguy
sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
UPS and sincere safety?
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
LOL The only thing UPS is sincere about is their shareholders.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
There are a lot of things to discuss
Ah yes, he was represented at the hearing by a lawyer, as was UPS. So unless he can show that somehow he was done wrong at this hearing legally, he has no further action in this matter.
For one, shame the union for taking such a made up piece of crap to arbitration. Every point the union made was rebutted by the company very successfully, where not one point the company made was rebutted by the union. There should have been several if not many the union should have rebutted. They either could not, or chose not too. Shame on them.
As a shop steward, you don’t leave anything to chance. You rebut everything. There were no suprises in what the company brought to the table. The union and this steward did not a damn thing to help in his defense. All they did was to repeat the mantra of UPS was mean to this guy cause he is a steward and as such they don’t like him. That was all they had. That was all they brought to the table. No data to refute what the company produced.
Shame on them
It is hilarious that when the driver brings up the fact that he had a tape recorder, and recorded days 2&3, that when the company calls his bluff, it is he that prefers not to have the company listen to it and make it part of the record. Could it be that after the lawyer for the union heard it, and it was just too damning to the case? And as the arbitrator pointed out, the actual day that the driver actually had a dispute, he did not record? Why? Is it because the driver is a liar and the actual tape of what happened on day one supported the sup that did the OJS?
Secondly, by the whole of the testimony given by both sides, it appears that the driver was a rouge, someone that felt no rules or regulations apply to him or his conduct. Especially when as a shop steward you tell the company they are full of $#^t when it comes to production of the drivers, and there is no way they can take discipline against the drivers, or enforce any type of production. That sets the stage for fireworks.
Data is this.
The driver showed that he could run his route in the 15’s, and demonstrated it.
Then after he showed he could, he consistently ran 3-4 stops under that. 2 hours extra or more a day.
Later on, when he showed even more days with sporhs in the single digits and 10-11’s, they did another study. This one was not at the 14.5, but was set at 13.71. This was now the new standard. And the driver agreed it was a fair standard, one that he agreed he could either hit or get close to daily.
But instead, he went the other way even further.
As for his selection with no other drivers being singled out, that was blown out of the water by the company, when they showed that he was one of the least best. And the least best were those that were consistently 3-5 stops an hour below sporh. All these drivers had OJS’s, and had shown improvement. All the drivers at the center were at least within 1-1.5 of their daily target, with the exception of this driver.
Now, off to what actually caused the driver to get that target.
HE not only underperformed by 15-45% daily, he got a lot of his warnings and suspensions in more traditional ways.
Warning for failure to remove misloads from the car upon return to building
Warning for failure to optimize loads
Warning for failure to follow methods during an OJS
Warning about his on road performance
Warning for insubordination
1 day suspension for leaving packages on car
3 days suspension for the same thing
1 day suspension concerning performance
3 day suspension concerning performance
5 day suspension concerning performance
Termination for performance related
Termination for over all working record including attendance
Termination for over all work record, including performance.
So the termination is not just a performance issue as has been suggested, but instead the employees whole demeanor while at work. Insubordination, failure to follow instructions are all things that can get you fired. And while they by themselves would not have been just cause, the belligerence of the driver while at the hearings I am sure put things over the top. He and the union kept repeating the mantra that there is nothing in the contract that gives the company power to fire someone over production issues.
Well they didn’t, they fired him because of a serious series of mistakes that both he as a shop steward made, and the union was too lazy to follow up on. And as an employee of UPS, the worst mistake you can make is tell them they cant fire you. They can and will. Believe me, they can find enough crap to hang you out, but this guy gave them so much more.
So in summation, the driver did not deserve his job back per what I read, the company did a sufficient job in presenting the case, the union and the shop steward did not do a damn thing to prepare for this case, so they deserved to lose.
Now, as to what bearing this case has on production enforcement at UPS? I don’t think it does, unless further bumblings by the union allow it to become precedence setting. There were too many things that were the cause of this driver being fired.
It was not that he missed his sporh by .5 or even 1-1.5 a day. And even after he was given another ride, he still went down even further, after stating that the ride was fair, and the sporh was very fair. Basically he was 2 hours over every day and going even further down. Couple that with his desire to show UPS that they could not do anything about it, you have the scene you have here.
This drivers comprehension of what the contract says, and his total lack of a clue should keep him away from representing any one else. And the union that took this to arbitration need to get a new job as well.
d
Ah yes, he was represented at the hearing by a lawyer, as was UPS. So unless he can show that somehow he was done wrong at this hearing legally, he has no further action in this matter.
For one, shame the union for taking such a made up piece of crap to arbitration. Every point the union made was rebutted by the company very successfully, where not one point the company made was rebutted by the union. There should have been several if not many the union should have rebutted. They either could not, or chose not too. Shame on them.
As a shop steward, you don’t leave anything to chance. You rebut everything. There were no suprises in what the company brought to the table. The union and this steward did not a damn thing to help in his defense. All they did was to repeat the mantra of UPS was mean to this guy cause he is a steward and as such they don’t like him. That was all they had. That was all they brought to the table. No data to refute what the company produced.
Shame on them
It is hilarious that when the driver brings up the fact that he had a tape recorder, and recorded days 2&3, that when the company calls his bluff, it is he that prefers not to have the company listen to it and make it part of the record. Could it be that after the lawyer for the union heard it, and it was just too damning to the case? And as the arbitrator pointed out, the actual day that the driver actually had a dispute, he did not record? Why? Is it because the driver is a liar and the actual tape of what happened on day one supported the sup that did the OJS?
Secondly, by the whole of the testimony given by both sides, it appears that the driver was a rouge, someone that felt no rules or regulations apply to him or his conduct. Especially when as a shop steward you tell the company they are full of $#^t when it comes to production of the drivers, and there is no way they can take discipline against the drivers, or enforce any type of production. That sets the stage for fireworks.
Data is this.
The driver showed that he could run his route in the 15’s, and demonstrated it.
Then after he showed he could, he consistently ran 3-4 stops under that. 2 hours extra or more a day.
Later on, when he showed even more days with sporhs in the single digits and 10-11’s, they did another study. This one was not at the 14.5, but was set at 13.71. This was now the new standard. And the driver agreed it was a fair standard, one that he agreed he could either hit or get close to daily.
But instead, he went the other way even further.
As for his selection with no other drivers being singled out, that was blown out of the water by the company, when they showed that he was one of the least best. And the least best were those that were consistently 3-5 stops an hour below sporh. All these drivers had OJS’s, and had shown improvement. All the drivers at the center were at least within 1-1.5 of their daily target, with the exception of this driver.
Now, off to what actually caused the driver to get that target.
HE not only underperformed by 15-45% daily, he got a lot of his warnings and suspensions in more traditional ways.
Warning for failure to remove misloads from the car upon return to building
Warning for failure to optimize loads
Warning for failure to follow methods during an OJS
Warning about his on road performance
Warning for insubordination
1 day suspension for leaving packages on car
3 days suspension for the same thing
1 day suspension concerning performance
3 day suspension concerning performance
5 day suspension concerning performance
Termination for performance related
Termination for over all working record including attendance
Termination for over all work record, including performance.
So the termination is not just a performance issue as has been suggested, but instead the employees whole demeanor while at work. Insubordination, failure to follow instructions are all things that can get you fired. And while they by themselves would not have been just cause, the belligerence of the driver while at the hearings I am sure put things over the top. He and the union kept repeating the mantra that there is nothing in the contract that gives the company power to fire someone over production issues.
Well they didn’t, they fired him because of a serious series of mistakes that both he as a shop steward made, and the union was too lazy to follow up on. And as an employee of UPS, the worst mistake you can make is tell them they cant fire you. They can and will. Believe me, they can find enough crap to hang you out, but this guy gave them so much more.
So in summation, the driver did not deserve his job back per what I read, the company did a sufficient job in presenting the case, the union and the shop steward did not do a damn thing to prepare for this case, so they deserved to lose.
Now, as to what bearing this case has on production enforcement at UPS? I don’t think it does, unless further bumblings by the union allow it to become precedence setting. There were too many things that were the cause of this driver being fired.
It was not that he missed his sporh by .5 or even 1-1.5 a day. And even after he was given another ride, he still went down even further, after stating that the ride was fair, and the sporh was very fair. Basically he was 2 hours over every day and going even further down. Couple that with his desire to show UPS that they could not do anything about it, you have the scene you have here.
This drivers comprehension of what the contract says, and his total lack of a clue should keep him away from representing any one else. And the union that took this to arbitration need to get a new job as well.
d
Just because someone can not physically do something, does not mean they lose the right to tell others how to do it.
Just because Andy Reid cant throw a football or block as good as the players he manages, doesn't mean he cant tell them what to do.
BigBrownSanta
Well-Known Member
The company threw this guy a lifeline and he walked up onto the plank, wrapped the rope around his neck, tied multiple knots, flipped everyone the bird, pulled the lever and hung himself. What an idiot.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Ah, psst, Red
He showed them he could do it. Not only that, he agreed with them that 13.71 was reasonable for that route. Not only in the meeting, he did not object when the company set that as a benchmark.
So HE was the one that agreed that 13.71 was a reasonable number.
I know, he was very stupid, but it was his gamble, and he lost.
d
He showed them he could do it. Not only that, he agreed with them that 13.71 was reasonable for that route. Not only in the meeting, he did not object when the company set that as a benchmark.
So HE was the one that agreed that 13.71 was a reasonable number.
I know, he was very stupid, but it was his gamble, and he lost.
d
Omega man
Well-Known Member
You are wrong. I am not saying that the over/under system as it currently is applied is fair. What I am saying is that if implemented properly and giving fair allowances for everything that occurs in our day, it at least gives credit for the variables in our day. SPORH does not. The gauge should be consistency in the over/under, not maintaining under plan. You expect a driver to maintain a certain level a performance even though a driver may do very different things from day to day. For example, one day a driver may run a 15 SPORH on a light piece count day and a 13 SPORH on the next day when 2 of his business stops get 100 pieces each. In your eyes he would be slacking off but he very well may have had consistent over plan on both days. This is why SPORH cannot be used as the gauge. Also, averaging SPORH over only 3 days is too small of a sample to judge performance. 3 days divided by the 261 days each year we work equates to .011 percent. That means you are gauging a drivers performance based only on what he has demonstrated .011 percent of the time. Statistically you would be called a fool. Stop trying to give credibility to what UPS is doing when it is blatantly unfair.
UPS currently has no fair gauge for performance. They have done it to themselves by not giving us a realistic over\under system. Don’t accept SPORH as a “lock in” as some of have described. Force UPS to use a fair over\under system that incorporates everything that we do. Then only accept consistency as your gauge.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Let me add some additional thoughts.
There are people that for what ever reason see a way to further their personal goals in life and use UPS or the Teamsters as a springboard.
While I do not know this guy at all, the one thing he does represent in his testimony and actions is that he thought of himself as the ultimate organizer, another Hoffa Sr or another Ron Carey. He was and is neither.
As an example, the petition to bring back the other fired driver.
1. Had no knowledge of the case. Had no information as to what info UPS had to fire the driver over.
2. He was interested in proclaiming himself a power broker in front of the drivers. All hype, no substance. Most burn out and are known for what they are, some end up on the trash heap.
3. He went to management without talking to the BA as to the status of the fired driver. Had he done that, he would have found out that the termination was reduced to a suspension the same day, the discussions for that were underway within minutes of the termination.
4. Being the brash loudmouthed egotist he is, he presented the petition to the center manager with instructions to forward it to the DM
All this, in his mind doing the unions business. But even the union admitted it to be off base for its steward to behave in this fashion.
BTW, the company proved, without again the union having a rebuttal against, that this was above and beyond the scope of the stewards job, but in any case, had no bearing on the actions that had occurred before, during or after the petition.
Again, as a steward representing this guy, I would have cautioned him about the path he was taking. You do not ever taunt UPS about them not being able to do nothing about production, give them statements that yes, 13.71 stops an hour are fair on my run, then never run even close to that on purpose just to prove your point. As a steward, I will tell you you will lose. Big time.
Secondly, just to prove how off the wall this guy is, he does not prepare for the hearings. In all the testimony he gave, there is very little that does not involve his personal position on the contract. Basically that he was THE authority on the contract, and everyone else needed to see it his way or they were wrong. Not a good strategy on his part.
There were several items of information that I would have considered essential to his basic defense, none of which he had, or allowed the company to present testimony without rebuttal.
With these, we might have gotten his job back, but in my opinion, only to lose it again later on. Drivers like this, its only a matter of time before the final shoe falls.
Had a driver like that here. Got his job back quite a few times, and each time, for a while, he would do great. Things like stealing time, falsifying mileage, pre recording some stops while delivering, then bringing them back up at lunch to complete one at a time, then take his "real lunch" later on that day, walking off the job etc. And each time we persuaded local and district management to bring him back. Until the last time. HE begged to take it to the panel and to arbitration. But with his record, they would have just laughed. 16 terminations in 5 years might be something you brag about in the mens room, but in front of an arbitrator....
Anyway, I am willing to discuss my view on this with fact. Anyone that has opposing views, have at it.
d
There are people that for what ever reason see a way to further their personal goals in life and use UPS or the Teamsters as a springboard.
While I do not know this guy at all, the one thing he does represent in his testimony and actions is that he thought of himself as the ultimate organizer, another Hoffa Sr or another Ron Carey. He was and is neither.
As an example, the petition to bring back the other fired driver.
1. Had no knowledge of the case. Had no information as to what info UPS had to fire the driver over.
2. He was interested in proclaiming himself a power broker in front of the drivers. All hype, no substance. Most burn out and are known for what they are, some end up on the trash heap.
3. He went to management without talking to the BA as to the status of the fired driver. Had he done that, he would have found out that the termination was reduced to a suspension the same day, the discussions for that were underway within minutes of the termination.
4. Being the brash loudmouthed egotist he is, he presented the petition to the center manager with instructions to forward it to the DM
All this, in his mind doing the unions business. But even the union admitted it to be off base for its steward to behave in this fashion.
BTW, the company proved, without again the union having a rebuttal against, that this was above and beyond the scope of the stewards job, but in any case, had no bearing on the actions that had occurred before, during or after the petition.
Again, as a steward representing this guy, I would have cautioned him about the path he was taking. You do not ever taunt UPS about them not being able to do nothing about production, give them statements that yes, 13.71 stops an hour are fair on my run, then never run even close to that on purpose just to prove your point. As a steward, I will tell you you will lose. Big time.
Secondly, just to prove how off the wall this guy is, he does not prepare for the hearings. In all the testimony he gave, there is very little that does not involve his personal position on the contract. Basically that he was THE authority on the contract, and everyone else needed to see it his way or they were wrong. Not a good strategy on his part.
There were several items of information that I would have considered essential to his basic defense, none of which he had, or allowed the company to present testimony without rebuttal.
With these, we might have gotten his job back, but in my opinion, only to lose it again later on. Drivers like this, its only a matter of time before the final shoe falls.
Had a driver like that here. Got his job back quite a few times, and each time, for a while, he would do great. Things like stealing time, falsifying mileage, pre recording some stops while delivering, then bringing them back up at lunch to complete one at a time, then take his "real lunch" later on that day, walking off the job etc. And each time we persuaded local and district management to bring him back. Until the last time. HE begged to take it to the panel and to arbitration. But with his record, they would have just laughed. 16 terminations in 5 years might be something you brag about in the mens room, but in front of an arbitrator....
Anyway, I am willing to discuss my view on this with fact. Anyone that has opposing views, have at it.
d
helenofcalifornia
Well-Known Member
Danny, where are you getting your specific information?
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Omega
You are confused on your terminology
Sporh is the basic study of stops delivered and picked up in a days work.
Over and under is the compilation of a lot of different items. It will include the number of pieces you delivered, the number you picked up, the number of actual miles you drove, the list goes on and on.
On my route, the Sporh was 16.5 and on the average day, I would be from 15.5-17 Sporh. As for the over under, it varied from + 1.00 on a tough day to -2.something on the good days.
Compare two days
1 Ran 16.4 and was under .13
2 Ran 14.9 and was under by 1.95
So why did the Sporh go down, but I was patted on the back because I was almost two hours under? Bulk, complex stops like 112 COD's, all things that UPS figured out on the over under part, but not affecting the Sporh.
I hope that clarifies it a bit for you so you can continue your posting in a more intelligent manner
d
You are confused on your terminology
Sporh is the basic study of stops delivered and picked up in a days work.
Over and under is the compilation of a lot of different items. It will include the number of pieces you delivered, the number you picked up, the number of actual miles you drove, the list goes on and on.
On my route, the Sporh was 16.5 and on the average day, I would be from 15.5-17 Sporh. As for the over under, it varied from + 1.00 on a tough day to -2.something on the good days.
Compare two days
1 Ran 16.4 and was under .13
2 Ran 14.9 and was under by 1.95
So why did the Sporh go down, but I was patted on the back because I was almost two hours under? Bulk, complex stops like 112 COD's, all things that UPS figured out on the over under part, but not affecting the Sporh.
I hope that clarifies it a bit for you so you can continue your posting in a more intelligent manner
d
Omega man
Well-Known Member
Sorry Dannyboy, you are the one confused because you totally missed my point. It is those like you who allow UPS to get away with their nonsense.
Omega man
Well-Known Member
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Actually the confusion lies without breaking up a long post into smaller paragraphs.
You and I are actually saying the same thing once I broke your last post apart and deciphered it.
Over and under is a closer gage to what actually happened out on road. It takes into effect the active things that we record that affects our day. Including having 112 COD's, when you normally only have 5 or less.
So since I see that I misread your post, my apology.
The issue on this case though is not that he was running just 4 stops an hour less, it is that he as also 2-4 hours a day over allowed.
See, not one person in this center that was running over allowed by 1-1.5 hours was even on the radar, only those that consistently were 2-4 hours over. And of those drivers, after a warning letter, all drivers showed improvement but this one. Who with a few exceptions right after he got a warning letter, actually continued to go even further downward.
d
You and I are actually saying the same thing once I broke your last post apart and deciphered it.
Over and under is a closer gage to what actually happened out on road. It takes into effect the active things that we record that affects our day. Including having 112 COD's, when you normally only have 5 or less.
So since I see that I misread your post, my apology.
The issue on this case though is not that he was running just 4 stops an hour less, it is that he as also 2-4 hours a day over allowed.
See, not one person in this center that was running over allowed by 1-1.5 hours was even on the radar, only those that consistently were 2-4 hours over. And of those drivers, after a warning letter, all drivers showed improvement but this one. Who with a few exceptions right after he got a warning letter, actually continued to go even further downward.
d
hangin455
Well-Known Member
Based on Danny's re-hash of the facts in this case, it does appear that this guy tried to put himself "above the law" as it was. I agree that this was a stinker of a case to take to abritration but as it has been stated earlier he was a dissident in his local and they had no choice but to represent him the best they could. The only advice he was taking was his own. What's that old saying? - only a fool has himself for a lawyer.
I've seen plenty of instances where stewards or BA's tell a guy that he's crossed a line he shouldn't cross - that's their job. Perhaps this guy had been warned too....
I've seen plenty of instances where stewards or BA's tell a guy that he's crossed a line he shouldn't cross - that's their job. Perhaps this guy had been warned too....
local804
Well-Known Member
"Had excessive customer contact 20 times"
"was instructed to call out UPS instead of saying hello"--failed to say UPS 41 times
warning letter for insubordination- language
"had excessive customer contact 20x" because he asked how the customer was doing?
"instructed to plan ahead 14 times"
"failed to follow a smooth car routine 32 times"
"key was not ready 6 times"
"failed to move without delay 13 times"
warning letter for language- when does it start and where does it end?
Center manager curses during a pcm infront of 35 people is acceptable?
Is it because it is their company and they can do what they want?
Danny I see you giving the driver alot of heat. Remember one thing, you retired with alot of years. This driver only had 1-2 years as a steward and was still learning from the business agents. I know I would have done alot of things different 20 years ago knowing wwhat I know now. Lets not forget what the BA`s job is and the unions role in the whole thing. Is the unions job just to collect money and pay the BA`s $140,000 for doing nothing?
I do know the driver and the BA personally and wouldnt hesitate to have this driver as my steward if I would ever need some help in the office. If UPS wanted to get rid of me, I would be gone in 1 year max. Nine months for them to build the case, and 3 for the proceedings. I probably got an average of 1 warning letter every 6 years and am a good driver now, but piss off the big dogs and I will be the biggest problem they have ever seen and I will still be working the same( think they used least best).
"was instructed to call out UPS instead of saying hello"--failed to say UPS 41 times
warning letter for insubordination- language
"had excessive customer contact 20x" because he asked how the customer was doing?
"instructed to plan ahead 14 times"
"failed to follow a smooth car routine 32 times"
"key was not ready 6 times"
"failed to move without delay 13 times"
warning letter for language- when does it start and where does it end?
Center manager curses during a pcm infront of 35 people is acceptable?
Is it because it is their company and they can do what they want?
Danny I see you giving the driver alot of heat. Remember one thing, you retired with alot of years. This driver only had 1-2 years as a steward and was still learning from the business agents. I know I would have done alot of things different 20 years ago knowing wwhat I know now. Lets not forget what the BA`s job is and the unions role in the whole thing. Is the unions job just to collect money and pay the BA`s $140,000 for doing nothing?
I do know the driver and the BA personally and wouldnt hesitate to have this driver as my steward if I would ever need some help in the office. If UPS wanted to get rid of me, I would be gone in 1 year max. Nine months for them to build the case, and 3 for the proceedings. I probably got an average of 1 warning letter every 6 years and am a good driver now, but piss off the big dogs and I will be the biggest problem they have ever seen and I will still be working the same( think they used least best).
local804
Well-Known Member
Well they didnt get him stealing time when they follow him. I think it is safe to say that you are wrong, Sir.
1989
Well-Known Member
I could be wrong, but I have never seen a driver consistantly 2-4 hours over. Out of the 300 or so drivers i've known in 6 centers and 2 districts. I've been 5 to 6 hours over but never consistantly.
