Production termination!

[stevetheupsguy]

The simple fact here is, like it or not, is, he's fired. It's time now to learn from any mistakes or missteps this driver made, and do not repeat them. Don't forget the family that's waiting for you to come home, daily, think about them before you make choices that could cost you your job and maybe your life.

Sorry, had to throw in my be safe message.

 

[Coldworld]

I do not need an iq of 148 to tell me that a freight guy backing a trailer in to a dock 6 to 8 times a day and having package fork lifted on and off is an easier job than a ups package car driver. I see them sleeping in their cabs or sitting around waiting to get loaded or unloaded. How often do you see a package car driver waiting in a dock for 30 minutes? almost never!

Have you grown stones enough yet to stand up for yourself? Or are you still taking more unpaid lunch than what you should because your boss told you to?

Aint that the truth!!!Thats including our own pride and joy ups freight. And considering many of those drivers are making over 20 bucks an hour with some sort of pension and similar healthcare really makes you ponder how much ups is really making paying upsers what they do, but it continues to be said that ups drivers are overpaid.

 

[NoStress]

More to the story, no question!

 

[dannyboy]

804

Glad you got to know the guy and think so highly of him.

What i dont understand is someone with your backbone letting a friend run head long into this kinda mess without trying to help. Sorry, I just dont understand.

What I do know is that he went before an arbitrator, who's very words were that he did not do several things at the hearing that would have been very important to the outcome of the hearing.

Only a fool goes to a gunfight with only a baseball bat. Your friend was such a fool, and you let him go like that.

I just dont understand.

Remember one thing, you retired with alot of years. This driver only had 1-2 years as a steward and was still learning from the business agents. I know I would have done alot of things different 20 years ago knowing wwhat I know now. Lets not forget what the BA`s job is and the unions role in the whole thing. Is the unions job just to collect money and pay the BA`s $140,000 for doing nothing?

One thing I do understand and learned early on was that there were people that knew a lot of things much better than I. Know what, I had to shut up and listen and learn from them, not try to impress them with what I might have thought impressive.

It is one thing to be very dedicated, which is one of the feelings I got from the scripts. Its another to be so inlove with yourself and what you think you might know so as to ignore good advice as it is being given.

Something this cat did by the bucket.

No matter how many years given, you just cant fix stupid.

d

 

[trplnkl]

On over/under and methods, I have no idea, I was not there.
Then his claim to fame is pointless in this discussion.
I take it that this was many years ago, right. Are you aware that just 20 years the heaviest package legal in our system was 50lbs? If you don't know what difference that makes it further illustrates things that make a difference in peoples performance in a given day.

Could he do it again tomorrow? Of course not. Are you going to claim 10 years after you retire that you could still go out any given day cold and deliver a route as well as your best day?

Of course I wouldn't, that would be ridiculous, THAT IS MY POINT. Very few if any can do as much in the same amount of time as we did 10 years ago.
Thank you for helping me make that point.

Look, my point was that many people in management, even IE, have been there and done that. Many folks on this board want to try to claim that all management should just STFU about driver production because all magmnt do not understand the drivers job. For a company that promotes from within as much as UPS does, this is simply not true.

I think the people on this board and in the centers across the country know full well that some management have done this job and done it well, however I think you will be hard pressed to find a very large % that have done the drivers job for very many years. AND that isn't even the point of most complaints against IE sups. The biggest complaint I've heard is the time standards are unrealistic and near impossible to reach on many routes. As a swing driver I can tell you without doubt there are routes(well, just one) in our center that I can run scratch on without any trouble, and then many more that I can not even get within an hour of scratch. When you hear/read a driver claiming that IE should have to demonstrate that they can do the job in scratch they mean day to day under the same guidelines that we are expected to follow. Few if any could, I doubt any would try.

 

[trplnkl]

you were expecting "them" to give you a warm hug and pat on the bottom?

Yes, a little TLC goes a long way.

 

[dannyboy]

Tpl

The true test of the time study and allowances for an area is the actual day to day running of that area.

The regular driver runs .45 average over allowed each day.

Cover driver 1 runs .30-.65 over each day

Cover driver 2 runs .15-.40 over when he runs it.

Sup took a part timer with him and beat it by .79

What do those numbers tell you? That the regular drivers and cover drivers are not up to par on the route? No, it tells me that the allowances are somewhat off. Not badly, but still off.

And it is the consistency of the being over and under across the board that gives the company the data needed. If it bothers them that the route is an overallowed route each day, they can do another time study on it and change the numbers to reflect reality.

What happened in this case and what most of you are relating to are different things.

As long as you actually (not just lip service) run the route to the best of your ability (and assuming you are not playing games with your numbers), I believe it is true, the company can not fire you for production.

In this case though it was demonstrated by the driver that he was pushing the point to the extreme. In his mind UPS could not take action, no matter how low the level of performance he produced. You and I know that just is not so. And while I doubt it, he should maybe have a clue now too?

Bottom line, do your job by the methods every day. Do your best every day. Take your lunch every day. Do the same job with or without a sup riding with you every day. If management gives you instructions on how to do your job better, do them.

Do these things, keep a good attitude, and I would agree, UPS does not have good standing to fire you for production.

d

 

[trplnkl]

You are wrong. I am not saying that the over/under system as it currently is applied is fair. What I am saying is that if implemented properly and giving fair allowances for everything that occurs in our day, it at least gives credit for the variables in our day.

Geeezzz I just love it when you guys help me make my point. Even though it is in lower case typing that is a very big IF and is in no way close to what we have to deal with.
SPORH does not. I never said that it did.
The gauge should be consistency in the over/under, not maintaining under plan. You expect a driver to maintain a certain level a performance even though a driver may do very different things from day to day. For example, one day a driver may run a 15 SPORH on a light piece count day and a 13 SPORH on the next day when 2 of his business stops get 100 pieces each. In your eyes he would be slacking off but he very well may have had consistent over plan on both days. This is why SPORH cannot be used as the gauge. Also, averaging SPORH over only 3 days is too small of a sample to judge performance.
Good grief, did you even read past the first sentence? I never said that SPORH was a fair measurement, just that is was more fair then O/U because or the unrealistic values placed on the events in a day.
3 days divided by the 261 days each year we work equates to .011 percent. That means you are gauging a drivers performance based only on what he has demonstrated .011 percent of the time. Statistically you would be called a fool. Stop trying to give credibility to what UPS is doing when it is blatantly unfair.
Only a fool would try playing numbers games with the pros.
If you bother to read what I posted I was not giving credibility to to anything, just less to O/U.
UPS currently has no fair gauge for performance. They have done it to themselves by not giving us a realistic overunder system.
Again read what I have typed, I agree there is currently no fair gauge that can be applied across the board to every driver on every route, and I don't feel there ever will be.
Don’t accept SPORH as a “lock in” as some of have described. Force UPS to use a fair overunder system that incorporates everything that we do. Then only accept consistency as your gauge.
As far as what I accept, I have my own barometer as to what I accept as my fair days work, I know when I have given my best on any day and when I have not.
I have said repeatedly that I didn't think SPORH were fair, I guess you weren't listening.
I don't know how long you have been with UPS, but I have been here long enough to know you can not FORCE UPS into anything. Once you accept the O/U system as a fair evaluation of your "fair days work", you have dug yourself into a hole no man or woman can crawl out of. Unfortunately, I fear the same can be said about the SPORH.
In conclusion, if you want to drive yourself to meet unrealistic goals set in a time study done in ONE day, then by all means knock yourself out, but it ain't gonna happen in my truck.

 

[trplnkl]

Tpl

The true test of the time study and allowances for an area is the actual day to day running of that area.

Danny, all my posts on this thread have been about the validity of time studies, O/Us vs. SPORH and which is more fair to both the company and the driver. In MHO, neither is a fair measurement. Both are stressed (depending on which one pushes the right buttons for the driver) to get more production out of the drivers. IMO, the SPORH seem to be closer to a realistic goal (THOUGH NOT PERFECT) of a drivers effort than O/U because those numbers come from past performance averages of averages. Of course we all know that circumstances vary from day to day that change these numbers that can adversely effect the day. Things that are neither the drivers fault nor the comapnies fault, yet the company will still try to hold our feet to the fire for the ever changing numbers.
With O/U and/or SPORH, if I have to make a meet point for late air or to send in out going pickups and I have to wait 10 minutes, my numbers for the day have changed.

On the case of this thread, if the facts are as you showed in your post ( and I have no reason to doubt you) this guy as not ultimately terminated for production, bad numbers or any other reason than arrogance and stupidity.

 

[dannyboy]

On the case....this guy as not ultimately terminated for production, bad numbers or any other reason than arrogance and stupidity

Basically that is what the arbitrator stated.

I know that the person that sent me this information might not like what I have posted. But I did not go over it to take a side. I read, highlighted, marked, re-read the papers. Then developed a time line, which by the way offered up an interesting insight.

She stated that it was not his performance and methods violation standing alone that provide the company with just cause for discharge. It was because he was INCORRIGIBLE in is failing or refusing to improve his methods and performance and conduct. As such the goal of progressive discipline was not achieving its goal of correction. As such, the employer has the right to fire the employee.

As for the insight in the record that no one has brought out, it is this

When he was given the 3 day suspension on the morning of the 18th, he went out and had a really bang up day. Ran a 13+++. Management called him into the office to give him that Attaboy. While the record does not show it, they must have claimed article 7, because three days later, on the 21st, they suspended him for 5 days.

How does a driver with any sense go out while under the article 7 and continue with what the company could have termed a work slow down. Especially after demonstrating that the company expectations were valid on the 18th?

Hard core to the end. But for the wrong reasons.

d

 

[705red]

Just because someone can not physically do something, does not mean they lose the right to tell others how to do it.
Just because Andy Reid cant throw a football or block as good as the players he manages, doesn't mean he cant tell them what to do.

In the ups world, absolutely it does. I believe that Andy at one time played football. A sup can supervise as an on car without ever doing the job? I have one right now like that, at times im not sure if hes telling me what do do or if hes asking me what he should do!

 

[705red]

I could be wrong, but I have never seen a driver consistantly 2-4 hours over. Out of the 300 or so drivers i've known in 6 centers and 2 districts. I've been 5 to 6 hours over but never consistantly.

Im an hour and a half to two hours over daliy! I maintain 18 to 20 stops an hour. I do 72 to 75 miles a day, 60 to 80 business stops and 100 residentials, with 15 pickups. My wheels are moving, or im sorting. Yet even on days when i have something to do and i balls to the wall it, im still an hour over. Now i just work at a constant pace, it is what it is.

I do not need some operations report to tell me im a hard worker.

 

[705red]

Danny, the steward might have done some things wrong, But when you bring his overall record in to play, there is a lot of bs. The times he was suspended for language, insubordination, was while he was acting as a steward and he is protected while acting as a steward. When i am in a steward role, the company does not dictate to me, or even tells me how to talk, if i raise my voice to express my stand on an issue, ups can not discipline me for it.

Bottom line, ups did not like him because he did what any steward should and represent the members. The union did not like him because he did what they did not have the stones to do. And after researching this arbitrator, she is pretty pro company in a lot of her decisions.

 

[dannyboy]

at times im not sure if hes telling me what do do or if hes asking me what he should do

Red

Im sure he is in good hands

What that statement tells me is that the sup is asking for input. You have a set of principles that dont waver, a honesty without question, and a dedication second to no man. As such, I can see why he would value your opinion.

In some cases I have seen this type of relationship yield some interesting results. Like when after a discipline hearing on a driver the sup comes up to you and says "you know I have to do something serious about this situation, any suggestions?" There are at least a dozen drivers just in our center that have a job today because of management reaching out to either the BA or the steward for a way out.

That type of reaching out by management happens a lot more than people think.

Believe it or not, with rare exception, UPS does not want to fire an employee. They, like everyone else, want what is legally and morally theirs.

A driver once said, "I'll give anyone the shirt off my back if they need it, but I will fight you to the death if you try to take it from me."

d

 

[dannyboy]

Danny, the steward might have done some things wrong

Red, I can find almost 1-5 per page thing he did wrong. HE might have been a good scrapper in a fight, but he was too arrogant to even mount his own defense properly.

But when you bring his overall record in to play, there is a lot of bs.

Yup I agree. A lot of it on his part. What would happen if you dropped to 15 stops an hour on your run. They then redo a time study on you, and set it at 18.

You then run 12-13 per hour. They redo your time yet again, and get it down to 16. So you drop down to 11-12. What is your center team gonna do to you? Especially when you agreed that 16 stops an hour is a good study on your route.

Thats not even to mention things like attendance


The times he was suspended for language, insubordination, was while he was acting as a steward and he is protected while acting as a steward. When i am in a steward role, the company does not dictate to me, or even tells me how to talk, if i raise my voice to express my stand on an issue, ups can not discipline me for it.

Oh but Red, I beg to differ. As a steward, when was the last time you represented a driver and yelled at the manager that he was full of $#i7 ? Is that really what you want people to think, you can get by with saying anything and are thereby protected? That might get the naive person to think you are really fighting for them, but I have yet to see where that type of behavior ever gains anything.

You can take a very strong stand on any issue without resorting to vulgar or disrespectful language.

Bottom line, ups did not like him because he did what any steward should and represent the members.

UPS really did not like me either. I filed more in a month than he did in 6. It got to where my grievances were on my computer. Change the date, name of the grievant, and bingo, in 10 minutes or less, pump out 20-30 grievances. A slow year was 200-250. Mostly sups working, people working off the clock etc.

My production was not all that great. And I represented the members. Difference is, I never once told one of my members that the company could not fire you on production. You drop it low enough, they will, and I can guarantee it. Seen it. It will be deadlocked just like this all the way to the arbitrator, and the majority of the time, it will be a lost cause there, especially if represented like this one was.

The union did not like him because he did what they did not have the stones to do.

I disagree here as well. HE went way overboard in his petition drive. Showed he was all for grandstanding without even talking to the union. It was "Its all about me" and how I can gain fame in front of the membership. Doesnt matter that after I make my move, we find out it was already decided. A strong union is made up of a team that moves together as one, not everybody out for themselves like this guy did.

My guess is that he told them what he wanted to do, and they went along. After all, they didnt have a dog in the race, it was all about him.

And after researching this arbitrator, she is pretty pro company in a lot of her decisions.

Maybe, but if this one is average for what she has ruled on, I can see why. The union and this clown screwed up big time. They did not, I repeat, not take the hearing seriously. They did not prepare for the hearing, they did not call into question data that UPS presented, he bluffed on the tape recordings, and when called on that bluff, he backed down?????? This strong verbose leader bluffed and then backed down? Why???????

He might have done well at the low level hearings on the humdrum BS. But at a hearing like that, no way. HE has no clue as to what the real world is like. Got totally caught with his pants down.

Also, when presenting data at a hearing like that, its nice to have real data to present. All he did was suggest that drivers had part of his route, that they gave others stops. He presented no evidence. None. He just figured his BS methods at the local hearings would win the arbitrator over as well.

Obviously, his woman charming skills are a bit off as well.

d

 

[ups_vette]

::

This here is the problem, too many people worry more about the shareholders than their own employees. One of our center managers tried that speech (think about the shareholders, what can we do for them?)...I heard crickets.

So I suppose you must support the runners and such who burn through their lunch hour just to meet the pie in the sky production number so your stock goes up? Methods and high production don't always go hand in hand. If you want the numbers you have to cut corners somewhere more often than not.

Overpaid? I can think of a few (most definitely NOT all) in my ranks that better fit that description considering a lot of people at my building openly admit they took the promotion because they couldn't handle the work that the hourlies do.

Do you have something against the people that work at this company? Your posts are always very argumentative and never positive at all. You seem to want to piss people off more than have a discussion.

I'm all for making money but abusing your employees so the stock which has been stagnant most of its lifetime goes up a minuscule amount doesn't seem a good way to go about doing it.

I'm surprised, I would have thought that someone like you, with a college degree, would know the the United States work under the capitolistic (sp) system of finance, rather that a socialistic or communistic system which , from your responce, you seem to favor. Are you a member of the Workers Party? Without stockholders companies would not be in business, unless you want the goverment to own every business (Cuba)


Like most things you are wrong about, I do not support what you refer to as "runners who burn thru their lunch" I support employees who follow the methods, including taking all personal time AGREED to in the contract and use the methods they are taught. When you say "cutting cornors" to get the "numbers" you are saying make up your own methods to do the job, and that's when the employee puts him/her self in danger of being injured or not meeting expectations


I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of UPS workers, both hourly and management. It's the few, both hourly and management, who are just bad employees who try to get away with as much as they can and feel they are better than the other employees. I was driver for 6 1/2 years, so I know what can and can't be done as a driver. I was an or car supe and Center Manager for 7 years, so I know that part of the business also. I worked in I.E. 18 years as Hub and Feeder section manager and Package section manager During my time in I.E. I worked in Hong Kong and Singapore for a year when UPS expanded in Asia. I also worked in France for 2 1/2 years when we expanded in Europe. So I have a lot of experience with UPS and a lot of respect for most of it's employees all over the world.




Please explain how expecting an employee to follow instructions and use the methods they have been taught is abusing the employee?

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Still don't have the case...

It would help.. and is asked.. that Locals forward these cases to the IBT...

705 Red.........



-Bug-

Danny, the steward might have done some things wrong, But when you bring his overall record in to play, there is a lot of bs. The times he was suspended for language, insubordination, was while he was acting as a steward and he is protected while acting as a steward. When i am in a steward role, the company does not dictate to me, or even tells me how to talk, if i raise my voice to express my stand on an issue, ups can not discipline me for it.

Bottom line, ups did not like him because he did what any steward should and represent the members. The union did not like him because he did what they did not have the stones to do. And after researching this arbitrator, she is pretty pro company in a lot of her decisions.

 

[BrownSuit]

The times he was suspended for language, insubordination, was while he was acting as a steward and he is protected while acting as a steward. When i am in a steward role, the company does not dictate to me, or even tells me how to talk, if i raise my voice to express my stand on an issue, ups can not discipline me for it.

As an American, your protected speech ends where it impedes on another's rights and freedoms.

Just because you are a Steward does not give you the right to trash talk or verbally assault any supervisor or manager that you do not agree with.

I would also suggest you read the "Our People" section of the Policy Book carefully.

Jim Casey himself said that people were UPSers first, then members of the Union. I don't care if you are Hoffa Sr. back from the grave, abusive language is not and will not be tolerated.

Now for those of you who are about to say "My center manager or Sup or so and so talks worse than that in a PCM" those issues need to be addressed properly. There is a chain of command for addressing this type of behavior. Just because you are a Steward, Sup, center manager, Division or District Manager, or the CEO yourself does not give you the ability to use this type of language to another employee, especially in this instance to a superior.

 

[705red]

As an American, your protected speech ends where it impedes on another's rights and freedoms.

Just because you are a Steward does not give you the right to trash talk or verbally assault any supervisor or manager that you do not agree with.

I would also suggest you read the "Our People" section of the Policy Book carefully.

Jim Casey himself said that people were UPSers first, then members of the Union. I don't care if you are Hoffa Sr. back from the grave, abusive language is not and will not be tolerated.

Now for those of you who are about to say "My center manager or Sup or so and so talks worse than that in a PCM" those issues need to be addressed properly. There is a chain of command for addressing this type of behavior. Just because you are a Steward, Sup, center manager, Division or District Manager, or the CEO yourself does not give you the ability to use this type of language to another employee, especially in this instance to a superior.

If i want to raise my voice to stress a fact or to call the company's bs, i will! If a sup/man tries to direct me to change my direction of an interview, i will not. When i am a steward i no longer am your employee and i am now a representative of the teamsters and the contract on behalf of the members. You can not tell me what to do, and if you want to bully around the grievant, i hope you brought your big boy pants to work with you!

I can use vulgarity legally when acting as a steward and have used it, i know were the line is, just as long as i do not threaten you or go way off base describing my personal feelings for you wishing harm to you

I was just in the office last thursday, were i exchanged words with the worst supervisor i have ever had the privilege of working for. When the manager told me i will show his supervisor respect, i replied respect is earned and if its not earned one will not get it. We got in to a argument over this respect issue until i got tossed out of the office.

I will not respect a title, respect is earned!

 

[705red]

Danny with your wealth of knowledge and years of experience as a steward, i think that you have forgotten were you came from and how you got there.

Exactly how much did you know as a steward 18 months in to the job? I ask because i have been a steward on and off for 13 years. And it was not up to about 5 years ago or so, were i was really taught everything that i know today.

At 18 months i could file a grievance, represent an employee in the office on minor cases, but not like i could today with my experience that i now have.

Now after union held training classes on grievance 101, arbitration classes, past practice, etc i would know what to expect in an arbitration scenario. I would not for a minute think i am going in with a slam dunk case in to any situation, low level, panel, arbitration.

This is because of my present ba and union leadership i have, were we for the most part have been giving the same opportunity to learn that they have. Now this steward could have been great in defending a member in the office, but do we know if he has been to a panel to see how different it is?

Has he ever been to an arbitration? Because an arbitration is nothing like a panel, or not even close to a low level in the managers office.

Now you could point the blame at the employee all you want, and maybe he was in over his head, but the union dropped the ball on this.

So please do not compare an 18 month steward that has 12 years with the company to some one like your self that had put in enough time to retiree and one who has seen everything that ups could throw at someone, 18 months is not enough time to understand and learn. I still learn as a steward on a daily basis! One never stops learning!