Production termination!

[UnconTROLLed]

Your kidding right? Your comparing driving for a freight company 20 years ago for 5 years to what a ups driver does on a daily basis. There is no comparison, so who's really the one that's not debating intelligently?

How do you know they are not alike, if you've never done it? Wasn't that your main point a few pages ago? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth whether you realize it or not.

 

[brownIEman]

Have you ever driven package car? Somedays you can walk through your truck easily, and some days its a game of hide and seek. Now if your playing a game of hide and seek looking for packages than its very easy for your spoh to go down by 3 stops. What should we do on days like this? Dont spend time digging and continue on and just drive back through the route later on in the day, which will also lower your spoh due to the extra miles.

This company had an agenda, i have been the steward that the company wanted to make an example of to get the rest of the drivers inline and fearing for their jobs. I didnt give in! I refused to accept a suspension for it 3 times over a 34 day period, and eventually was put back to work with my back pay!

The union did a real piss poor job on this arbitration, and should be removed for failing to repesent all of us in this precedent seeting debacle that they allowed to happen!

This is a weak argument red.

To answer your question, no I have not ever been a package driver. Have you ever audited an entire package division looking at the change in production, including but not limited to SPORH, for hundreds of drivers over every day for several weeks? Even when stops on a route go through the roof and the piece count does the same, typically SPORH does not usually make huge swings, in my experience. But neither my experience nor yours is relevant to this discussion.

For the sake of argument, let us say that a bricked out package car poorly loaded is a good and fair reason for a break down of 3 SPORH off demonstrated performance. Do you have any evidence that that happened to this driver, not just once, but over several days? You have not presented any.

All I said was that all else being equal, a drop of 3 SPORH over several days tends to point to a driver who is violating the contract by not giving a fair days work. I never said it was a certainty this was what happened. I am a fair minded member of management. So, if you have evidence that all was not equal over the several days that this drivers production went down so drastically, lets hear it. If the best you have is "sometimes playing hide and seek hurts production by 3 sporh" fine, all you have is possible, but rather implausible conjecture. In that case I agree that maybe, he was fired unfairly. You must admit however, that maybe he was not, at which juncture you should drop this attitude of it being a certainty that he was rail roaded and let down by the union and this whole thing is a wild injustice.

I will congratulate you on your victories over your management in your particular struggles, but remind you again, it has nothing to do with the case in question.

 

[Dark_Team_135]

If the things I am reading here are true, it is pretty obvious that the company AND the union had it out for this guy. Otherwise, this case would never have made it to arbitration. Since the guy had used the NLRB previously, I am sure that he filed a charge with that agency for being terminated for union activity.

Now that he has gotten this bogus decision, the NLRB has the right to review it and has the authority to accept it or overturn it because it is "repugnant to the Act." The problem is that the bar is set pretty high for that to happen. Even if the NLRB overturns the decision, the courts can overturn them!

Speaking of the courts, the likelihood of them overturning an arbitrator's decision is pretty low:

In general, courts cannot overturn an arbitration Award because the arbitrator made a mistake of law or fact. Even if a court would have decided the case differently under existing law, the court will still enforce an arbitration Award that differs from what it would have decided. (This general rule may not apply where the parties have agreed to arbitrate a statutory claim, although the law in this areas is not well developed.)

Courts will "vacate" and refuse to confirm an arbitration Award where it is the product of fraud, corruption, or misconduct by the arbitrators. The grounds for vacating an Award are set out in the applicable statutes. In order to have an arbitration Award vacated, it is usually necessary to show (1) a serious conflict of interest on the part of a neutral arbitrator, (2) the Award was not "final" or (3) it covered a subject that was outside the scope of the arbitration agreement.

I too was fired by UPS for union activity and because of some disagreements I have had in the past with the Local concerning their representation of UPS members, my BA laid down and I lost my case at the JAC (Regional) level.

The NLRB removed the case from deferral and filed a complaint against UPS and ultimately I was reinstated and paid many thousands of dollars for their stupid mistake. However, I was told that I was the only person that had been fired at UPS in Indiana and later came back to work after losing a panel decision. That should tell you how rare something like that is.

 

[brownIEman]

Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't the center managers and division managers bonus based on how good the production numbers of his drivers are?
Also, ever heard of MAR? minimum acceptble something (i forgot)
If you are allowed 9 minutes to do a certain part of your job and you do it in 7 minutes then 7 minutes becomes your MAR forever and ever.
Doesn't allow for unexpected intervening variables does it?

OK, I will correct you. You are mistaken, that is not how the bonus is calculated. The calculation is based on corporate wide goals being achieved, which include cost (this production feeds into) but also service and many others. Also, MARs are based on studies of a particular job in a particular setup and are calculated by formulas built up over years of work study and observation. If your MAR is 9 min and you do the job in 7 min, you generally get a kudos. The MAR does not change a bit.

 

[ih8tbrn]

Your kidding right? Your comparing driving for a freight company 20 years ago for 5 years to what a ups driver does on a daily basis. There is no comparison, so who's really the one that's not debating intelligently?

Okay....I can't let this one go. I'll answer this one for the bystanders. Have you ever heard of Amway? I would deliver this stuff out of a packed 24 foot twin screw, much bigger than your P1000's. This was a 3 day run starting on Sundays covering 3 states and between 1500 - 1800 miles. Then starting on Wednesdays we would deliver general freight for 2 - 3 days depending on volume. Those were 14 hour days driving up to 700 miles a day. As far as I'm concerned the UPS man had it much easier plus twice the wage and benefits that I didn't get. Can you figure out why I left that job for a cushy union job with double the pay and benefits?

 

[ups_vette]

My sup got on me the other day about keeping my keys on my finger (I keep them on my clip unless I'm doing resi, generally). What he doesn't see is the dozen times that I drop my keys off my finger while trying to handle pkgs. It saves me time to clip them. Esp. while doing business.

Let me make sure I understand you. When you say you follow the methods UPS taught you, what you're really saying is you follow the methods UPS taught that you AGREE with. Any UPS method that you disagree with, you replace with a method the you make up. In your words, you don''t have to follow the UPS methods because your methods are better.

That's an interesting thought process you have when in your mind "you follow the methods".

What other UPS methods that you disagree with have you replaced with your own methods?

 

[UPSNewbie]

Let me make sure I understand you. When you say you follow the methods UPS taught you, what you're really saying is you follow the methods UPS taught that you AGREE with. Any UPS method that you disagree with, you replace with a method the you make up. In your words, you don''t have to follow the UPS methods because your methods are better.

That's an interesting thought process you have when in your mind "you follow the methods".

What other UPS methods that you disagree with have you replaced with your own methods?

Since I'm not a driver, this is a serious question. Is it part of the methods to put the keys on your finger?

If she continues to drop the keys, how much time does she spend bending down to pick them up, as opposed to clicking the keys onto a belt loop?

 

[705red]

How do you know they are not alike, if you've never done it? Wasn't that your main point a few pages ago? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth whether you realize it or not.

I do not need an iq of 148 to tell me that a freight guy backing a trailer in to a dock 6 to 8 times a day and having package fork lifted on and off is an easier job than a ups package car driver. I see them sleeping in their cabs or sitting around waiting to get loaded or unloaded. How often do you see a package car driver waiting in a dock for 30 minutes? almost never!

Have you grown stones enough yet to stand up for yourself? Or are you still taking more unpaid lunch than what you should because your boss told you to?

 

[705red]

This is a weak argument red.

To answer your question, no I have not ever been a package driver. Have you ever audited an entire package division looking at the change in production, including but not limited to SPORH, for hundreds of drivers over every day for several weeks? Even when stops on a route go through the roof and the piece count does the same, typically SPORH does not usually make huge swings, in my experience. But neither my experience nor yours is relevant to this discussion.

For the sake of argument, let us say that a bricked out package car poorly loaded is a good and fair reason for a break down of 3 SPORH off demonstrated performance. Do you have any evidence that that happened to this driver, not just once, but over several days? You have not presented any.

All I said was that all else being equal, a drop of 3 SPORH over several days tends to point to a driver who is violating the contract by not giving a fair days work. I never said it was a certainty this was what happened. I am a fair minded member of management. So, if you have evidence that all was not equal over the several days that this drivers production went down so drastically, lets hear it. If the best you have is "sometimes playing hide and seek hurts production by 3 sporh" fine, all you have is possible, but rather implausible conjecture. In that case I agree that maybe, he was fired unfairly. You must admit however, that maybe he was not, at which juncture you should drop this attitude of it being a certainty that he was rail roaded and let down by the union and this whole thing is a wild injustice.

I will congratulate you on your victories over your management in your particular struggles, but remind you again, it has nothing to do with the case in question.

It might be a weak argument for you, but all it is is the truth. How can ups pay you to time study us and sut behind a computer to evaluate our production, when you have no working knowledge of our job? Not trying to be a smart ass.

Would you let a janitor thats never done a break job, put breaks on your car and drive your family around?

 

[705red]

Okay....I can't let this one go. I'll answer this one for the bystanders. Have you ever heard of Amway? I would deliver this stuff out of a packed 24 foot twin screw, much bigger than your P1000's. This was a 3 day run starting on Sundays covering 3 states and between 1500 - 1800 miles. Then starting on Wednesdays we would deliver general freight for 2 - 3 days depending on volume. Those were 14 hour days driving up to 700 miles a day. As far as I'm concerned the UPS man had it much easier plus twice the wage and benefits that I didn't get. Can you figure out why I left that job for a cushy union job with double the pay and benefits?

WOW! You get 3 days to unload that? We get 10 to 12 hours to unload ours typcally with over a hundred stops, some less some more, and 50 to 250 miles a day. Oh ya and refill it to get back to the building. Its not the same, and im not saying that you didnt earn your money.

 

[brownIEman]

It might be a weak argument for you, but all it is is the truth. How can ups pay you to time study us and sut behind a computer to evaluate our production, when you have no working knowledge of our job? Not trying to be a smart ass.

Would you let a janitor thats never done a break job, put breaks on your car and drive your family around?

Yet again you dodge the question. Who cares who is doing a time study on anyone. I am asking, do you have specific knowledge of factors other than laying down on the job that would cause this driver to have SEVERAL days of 3 or more SPORH less than what he demonstrated on the dial in rides.

It is a simple question and it is not answered by saying "I know what it is to be a driver and you don't". Time study methodology is not on trial here. In fact, it is irrelevant.

There are many reasons why a drivers performance may vary from day to day. There are even reasons for it to drop over a sustained number of days. One possibility is load quality as you have suggested. Another possibility is the driver is just plain lazy and slow and stealing company time.

Right now, you have suggested nothing that would lean any fair minded person to believe the former is more likely in this case than the later.

 

[705red]

Yet again you dodge the question. Who cares who is doing a time study on anyone. I am asking, do you have specific knowledge of factors other than laying down on the job that would cause this driver to have SEVERAL days of 3 or more SPORH less than what he demonstrated on the dial in rides.

It is a simple question and it is not answered by saying "I know what it is to be a driver and you don't". Time study methodology is not on trial here. In fact, it is irrelevant.

There are many reasons why a drivers performance may vary from day to day. There are even reasons for it to drop over a sustained number of days. One possibility is load quality as you have suggested. Another possibility is the driver is just plain lazy and slow and stealing company time.

Right now, you have suggested nothing that would lean any fair minded person to believe the former is more likely in this case than the later.

We all know people that have had rides, and on these ride days the route is lighter than normal, the load is perfect. Now can i explain this drivers days, no i cant. Its not explained in the summary.

I will show you operation reports from 2 years ago, were i was doing the same stops per hour, mileage and area and i made bonus daily. I now am an hour and a half to two hours over doing the same work. Please tell me whos stealing from who!

 

[New Englander]

If you were a driver you would understand what "proving a point" meant. So i will explain it to you. It means that they are taking all of their lunch, paid breaks, doing the job by the methods, closed bulk head door, hand rails, using the cart as much as needed, all of these adds time to your day. This is why you see the drivers coming in later. You should come in and look at these trucks in the morning before you start flying off with alleged allegations. I'm sure when you see a loaded 12 cube bricked front to back going out and than coming back in the same way, you might have a better grasp of what our job details.

Until you have walked a mile in our (package drivers) shoes, you should only speak off your life experiences!

No Red you are WRONG. That is far from what I meant by it. Don't even try to fluff crap it doesn't work. There are drivers in every center that do not have what it takes.

There are drivers who steal time in every center. Guys who stop and do their personal banking etc on company time. WITH OUT putting the time in as a break because...heck I had a delivery there or next door.

I'm guessing to get fired for production you have to be a pretty miserable employee on many fronts. Especially if the Union couldn't get his job back for him.

 

[brownIEman]

We all know people that have had rides, and on these ride days the route is lighter than normal, the load is perfect. Now can i explain this drivers days, no i cant. Its not explained in the summary.

I will show you operation reports from 2 years ago, were i was doing the same stops per hour, mileage and area and i made bonus daily. I now am an hour and a half to two hours over doing the same work. Please tell me whos stealing from who!

clearly the measurements have changed.

I notice however, that your stops per hour have not. This driver was fired for not maintaining his stops per hour, not for being over allowed. Once again supporting my contention that this case has nothing to do with time studies or their over or under allowances. Not sure why you keep bringing it up.

But since you have... I have no way to know who is stealing from who. It would appear either UPS is now stealing from you in terms of bonus if your area time study is out of wack. Or, another possibility, and does happen, in the past you were stealing from UPS (without knowing it or meaning to) because your study was screwed up then. When was your last time study?

 

[local804]

No Red you are WRONG. That is far from what I meant by it. Don't even try to fluff crap it doesn't work. There are drivers in every center that do not have what it takes.

There are drivers who steal time in every center. Guys who stop and do their personal banking etc on company time. WITH OUT putting the time in as a break because...heck I had a delivery there or next door.

I'm guessing to get fired for production you have to be a pretty miserable employee on many fronts. Especially if the Union couldn't get his job back for him.

Every single driver was trained by a supervisor and had a 1 day ride with the manager before the driver was hired. Those that did not "have it" were let go. Every single book driver here proved to management they CAN do the job and "DO" have what it takes to perform the job. Like I said in the past post, there is alot more to do with it than this guy being a " miserable employee" and he was a steward so I am sure the pissing match escalated.

 

[gopack]

We had a driver who went thru a 3 day ride that locked him in around 16 stops an hour. Then about a month later they pulled a resi area that gave him about 15-25 stops and gave him a medical park with 15-25 stops. The center manager felt his sporh should not have changed and the driver should make the original 16 stops an hour. Management rode his but hard a few days then issued him a warning letter. The driver filed a greivance to protest the warning letter and so far the company hasn't pushed the issue since.

 

[New Englander]

Every single driver was trained by a supervisor and had a 1 day ride with the manager before the driver was hired. Those that did not "have it" were let go. Every single book driver here proved to management they CAN do the job and "DO" have what it takes to perform the job. Like I said in the past post, there is alot more to do with it than this guy being a " miserable employee" and he was a steward so I am sure the pissing match escalated.

Fact of the matter is to get fired you really have to be going above and beyond the call of duty.

Especially if their going after you based on productivity.

If the Union couldn't get his job back for him - I'm going to side with the Company on this one.

 

[brownmonster]

You don't get fired strictly for production. The guy was an agitator. We have a couple of guys that are pathetic. They supes rip them all the time but they don't get fired. There is always more to the story.

 

[705red]

You don't get fired strictly for production. The guy was an agitator. We have a couple of guys that are pathetic. They supes rip them all the time but they don't get fired. There is always more to the story.

Thats my opinion, but what you call an agitator i call a shop steward with stones! He stood up for himself and others and was over looking contract violations.

Now i know for a fact that i have filed way more than 115 grievances in the last year, and i took today off so i could get caught up on peaks grievances, i have filled out 36 grievances today alone. All to be presented tomorrow and Monday. Sups working, using helpers after Xmas, air drivers picking up and delivering grounds, not honoring seniority.

 

[Bubblehead]

Red I'm curious to know if the slate this guy is affiliated with in the upcoming election is opposing the incumbents ( the BA that represented him )? If so I would assert that they may not have been as zealous in his defense and possibly colluded with management. Also how long did it take for this whole process to play out?