Production termination!

[local804]

There was a little problem with his lawyer that he had for this whole time, he was replaced one day before the final hearing.

Wouldn't this have allowed him to ask for a continuance so that his new lawyer could get up to speed?

I am no expert on this but wouldnt his replacement lawyer be fair representation? You and I might see it different, but a lawyer is a lawyer and he was represented. Did this have anything to do with his case? I am not sure, but it is a little strange.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

There was a little problem with his lawyer that he had for this whole time, he was replaced one day before the final hearing.

I am no expert on this but wouldnt his replacement lawyer be fair representation? You and I might see it different, but a lawyer is a lawyer and he was represented. Did this have anything to do with his case? I am not sure, but it is a little strange.

Right, but any lawyer worth his salt will want time to get caught up on the case and to be thrown in there at the last minute may have short-changed his client.

Truth be told, from what I have read, the guy deserved the firing, but I was just curious about the last minute lawyer change.

 

[local804]

I don't think this is a lesson for the regular everyday UPS driver. This is a lesson for the union leaders and stewards to warn people like this that you have to show signs of being a productive employee. Upstate is right, eventually the guy was throwing himself off the cliff.

He might have been dangling off the cliff with a rope, jmho, but the agent had the knife at the top.

 

[local804]

Right, but any lawyer worth his salt will want time to get caught up on the case and to be thrown in there at the last minute may have short-changed his client.

QUOTE]

I agree totally.....
Just remember, the lawyer works for the BA (union)
If this driver ran and beat the BA in the next election(10 months away and very possible)
Both the BA and the lawyer would not be around representing anyway.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Good point.

Idol is on--you guys have a good night.

 

[Fullhouse]

There is more to the story, this driver was elected 18 months ago in an upset election over a long time steward that really did nothing for the members. In that time this driver had filed 115 grievances, had 100 drivers sign a petition in support of another driver that was wrongly terminated. This steward had filed several nlrb violations against ups, without the union's help. Sounds like this steward did his job as a steward.

The company brought in a sup from another center to do this ride on the driver which was this sups only performance ride while the manager said the centers performance as a whole needed to be addressed. (what better way to address it than to fire the steward) The driver was on vacation the week before he received the ride so the sup rode with the cover driver to get area knowledge. Not a performance ride.

They progressively disciplined this driver for his spoh, suspended him for missing 2 clerk work package a one time occurrence. Ups went after this guy for his union activity.

He was suspended several times all within a few months leading up to this. The arb compared his spor to other drivers doing different routes which is totally unfair as no two routes are a like.

The arbitrator's own words said that there is more to the 4 corners of a contract than whats written in it! No joke! I would love to cut and paste some of her ruling, but i cant do it in adobe, any way that i can do it.

And drewed while ups and the teamsters agree to the rulings as binding, the grievant does have some legal recourse to take. But he has to prove that the arb was incompetent, and by reading this ruling, its possible it could be done.

Oh yeah, this driver was also part of the members united slate, he was running for office of 804 in the next election!

Time for some NLRB charges against the local for misrepresentation!
https://web.archive.org/web/2009021..._a_charge_against_an_employer_or_a_union.aspx

 

[dannyboy]

but this battle could have been different if he had the right BA in there from the start

4

I agree with you on that one. But I still get the feeling that the driver was calling the shots, not the BA. And if I read more into your friendship than was there, my apology!

I feel the only course for action is to sue the local for not being prepared in his best interests

Heffe

If it was that simple. See, actually he can not sue the lawyer, its not his lawyer, it’s the union’s. The lawyers responsibility to the driver was to make sure that what happened was legal, and the drivers rights were not violated.

Let me give you an example

You buy a house. You close on the house. You pay closing costs to the lender which include a deed search on your property. You pay the bank, they pay the lawyer.

A year later you get transferred and need to sell the house. But the new buyer’s lawyer finds out that the property is a non conforming property because a few years ago, the owners then sold 30 feet off the back of the lot to someone else. The lawyer that did your search missed it, so now you are in a real problem. You have a property which is worth a lot less than what you paid for it, and as a practical matter cant be sold.

Guess what. Because the lawyer worked for the bank, you can not sue the lawyer for damages. The bank can, but not you.

If you have a deed search done, make sure you write the check to the lawyer, that makes him working for you.

This is a lesson for the union leaders and stewards to warn people like this that you have to show signs of being a productive employee.

Heffe, you bring up a point dear to my heart. Bless you!

As long as a driver makes a good faith effort, and tries to improve himself, I don’t think UPS would try, but for sure they would not succeed in firing a driver on production. I really don’t. Some come by it easier than others, but if you at least keep trying, they would be hard pressed to make their case stick.

You and I might see it different, but a lawyer is a lawyer and he was represented

804, you are correct. His purpose there was to see to it that the drivers rights were not violated. But then again, like a doctor, you can only do so much for a patient that does not want your help. Case in point, it was the lawyer that talked the driver out of using the tapes. Ill bet because they contained damning information that UPS could use against him to prove their point! The lawyer did his job. And I think that the BA did his as well as he could considering this guys ego.

d

 

[BrownSuit]

Brownsuit, I was pretty much with you until the last part. IT does not matter what position a person holds in the company. No especially to the matter at all. The people that clean the toilets deserve the same repect(maybe more) that the CEO of this comapny does.

Yes they do actually deserve a lot more, I know the people that clean the bathrooms in my office deserve a whole lot of respect It's scary sometimes . . .

That said, when you are vulgar and offensive to your workplace superior (manager), you not only disrespect them as a person, but you also place your job at greater risk. Any time offensive or abusive language is used, you are playing Russian roulette. Let's be honest though, if I do that to one of my peers, I will be a horrible human being, but likely will still have a job the next day, if I mouth off to my boss, I can kiss my job goodbye. No arbitrator, No Steward, No chance of re-hire, I'm gone without question or consideration to my mental state or stress levels.

It's not that they are a superior human being because they have a title, they should be treated just the same as anybody else, the deference comes in with the fact that they have the power to fire you when you go off the reservation.

Being "Superior" to another is what Red and this Steward would think that they can be simply because they are on "Union Time". That who is paying you differentiates your behavior towards another human being is absurd.

 

[705red]

if I mouth off to my boss, I can kiss my job goodbye.quote]


Your missing the point, when a steward is in the office, he is your equal and you are not his boss. The rest of your post pretty much sounds like typical ups scare tactics! Try and intimidate the steward in to bowing to your demands. What your forgetting here that if a steward is raising his voice, its pretty obvious that you have violated the contract and you cant admit that you did.

 

[705red]

interesting that you say that . I had a steward file a grievance against me for abusive language when we had one of those heated discussions. He was every bit as loud as I was just used a few less friend-bombs.

Tie if both parties were talking like that, you would not hear a peep out of me about it later. I do try not to use profanities, and tend to get heated in certain situations, like when the company denies its a contract violation, or when i have caught them lying!

 

[705red]

Red

Yup, seen it several times. Gotta let the dummies do it to themselves. Even when we know better.

Kinda like a doc. We can only tell them what the problem is and how to fix it. Allowing us to use our knowledge to fix it is up to them. They refuse, we stand by and watch them die. Sometimes, if it is not too late, we try to help if they see the error.


In an arbitration? I understand bringing a case to panel and letting the grievant hang himself. But going to arbitration and doing so is insane. Its the members money that pay for that losing case, and it will be precedent setting affecting the whole membership. The unions job is to defend the contract language in the case, that is why the case has made it to arbitration.

As far as getting one to lie, me either. But I have had to tell a bunch to shut up and not say another word without my permission. Its funny how when some people talk, they can open up several other cans of worms they really dont want opened.

One wrong slip up and a whole new round of questions are to come, i have seen this all to often! If something goes wrong at panel because of the grievant, it tends not to go to arbitration, unless its a clear cut contract violation. As of this thursday we will have a sitting arbitrator at all our panels for discipline cases, should be real interesting.

I suspect that is why the lawyer for the grievant recommended not to air the contents of the tape he made. Remember, get it admitted, and it is all there. And UPS can use it against you as well. So there must have been some damning content.

Anyway, sorry if this guy was a friend. Maybe he was used. Best I can tell, he was warned by some that saw what was going to happen. Others like 804 just stood by and let him self destruct.

Better to win a bunch of smaller fights and live to fight again, than to try to win the war all in one fight and lose. Especially when you dont have any ammo.

d

I have meet this employee and i think hes a stand up guy and was a blast to be around, i have never worked with him, but i will tell you he loved the guys he worked with and took pride in being a steward.

 

[705red]

It looks like he did win a bunch of little fights. He was lucky to still have a job after each one of the warnings and suspensions on that long list.

100% with Danny

RED - I was told that when you are in the office for discipline reasons, you let the steward talk for you. How was this guy talking at his arbitration hearing?

As a grievant in the case you will be asked questions, the union will ask you questions to prove your case. The companies questions will be in an attempt to discredit you, upset you to the point of blowing up and damaging yourself in front of the arbitrator, and the arbitrator will ask questions to help them decide between the two sides.

Absolutely you let the steward talk for you, and before you go in the steward should know why you are in the office. If the company fails to tell the steward as soon as the company tells you, the steward should take caucus time and talk to you about it.

If the steward does not know why your are in the office, and does not take time to talk to you after they find out, ask for another steward, hopefully one that knows his job!

 

[New Englander]

I have meet this employee and i think hes a stand up guy and was a blast to be around, i have never worked with him, but i will tell you he loved the guys he worked with and took pride in being a steward.

Doesn't change the fact that he obviously needed to find another line of work. This isn't for everyone and his actions show it wasn't for him.

 

[dannyboy]

I have meet this employee and i think hes a stand up guy and was a blast to be around, i have never worked with him, but i will tell you he loved the guys he worked with and took pride in being a steward.

I dont doubt it. Some of the most disturbed people in the world are fun to be around at times.

The fact that he loved being a steward and loved his fellow driver does not make him a good steward or leader either. It makes him dynamic. The world history is full of dynamic people that were great speakers with great visions, but managed to lead people in the wrong direction.

As for the long term effect this case has on production issues, I dont think it will unless your locals allow it. The arbitrator made it clear this was not just about production

It was more about the whole package. His attitude, his inability to try to better himself, and when at times showed improvement, the next day again hit bottom.

So unless you northern boys give the company a chance to let it stick as a production victory, it shouldn't. Basically it should be a nothing decision.

But for other drivers thinking of a copy cat type of action, it should be a wake up call.

d

 

[705red]

Doesn't change the fact that he obviously needed to find another line of work. This isn't for everyone and his actions show it wasn't for him.

In who's opinion? Yours? Maybe in your little world you matter, but you have not added any decent discussion to this thread, except to judge someone that you do not know or have never meet.

Who here has crowned you as the all knowing ups god?

If these are the best posts you can add to a thread, do myself and everyone else a favor and throw your computer out the window!

 

[705red]

As for the long term effect this case has on production issues, I dont think it will unless your locals allow it. The arbitrator made it clear this was not just about production


d

Danny you hit it on the head! The arbitrator made it clear this was not just about production

But he was fired for production and it was upheld, the arbitrator stepped over her bounds! She read more in to the contract and even said "theres more to a contract than the 4 corners of the book"! Thats not her job to read in to stuff thats not there!

 

[dilligaf]

Who here has crowned you as the all knowing ups god? !

UPS Vette

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Danny you hit it on the head! The arbitrator made it clear this was not just about production

But he was fired for production and it was upheld, the arbitrator stepped over her bounds! She read more in to the contract and even said "theres more to a contract than the 4 corners of the book"! Thats not her job to read in to stuff thats not there!

Not trying to disagree with you, 705, but, arbitration is not a "court of law", is it? I know that lawyers are present, but, court is run by strict guidelines, whereas I believe an "arbitraitor" can use other facts about the person that come into play as the arbitration proceeds. What I mean is, a judge cannot take into account evidence that was not allowed in to begin with. Is arbitration that way? Will the arbiTRAITOR turn a blind eye to past records that are brought up during the process?

 

[dannyboy]

Steve

The "other factors" that played into this guy getting fired were there from the local hearing to the arbitration. All of it. And it was taken as a whole by the whole process.

Red

Had this guy tried, this would have never happened. Agree?

But he didnt. Wouldn't. Refused to try. And when questioned about it, was arrogant about it.

As for reading into the contract what is not there, all she did was state there are some basic rights for both sides that are not covered under the contract, because they were a given. One of the givens is that UPS has to make a profit. And the Unionized workforce is to support that effort as much as possible while in the uniform.

She is in no way stating that there are numbers or production issues that are covered even though they are not covered.

Basically, she is stating the obvious. UPS does have a right to expect their drivers to be productive. And while that right is not covered in the contract, it is still their right.

What is also not covered under the contract is what actually is a fair days pay for a fair days work. But it was assumed that both parties would leave that as something fluid from one employee to another, one route to another. And until some maroon pushes both sides to pin it down, there it shall stay.

So no, she did not give UPS a win on production. And she was not advocating adding to the contract at her whim.

d

 

[New Englander]

In who's opinion? Yours? Maybe in your little world you matter, but you have not added any decent discussion to this thread, except to judge someone that you do not know or have never meet.

Who here has crowned you as the all knowing ups god?

If these are the best posts you can add to a thread, do myself and everyone else a favor and throw your computer out the window!

So we should just take YOUR opinion as gospel then? Sorry....everything YOU offered in the start was pro-idiot driver and anti-UPS. You had the same report DB had. Yet his report on it showed a very different side from yours. One that the majority here agree - he shouldn't be an employee at UPS.

Let me go get you a tissue!