Runners......

[over9five]

But the problem around here where I'm at is that our local holds its meetings at 700 on a tuesday night once a month. So the parttimers on the local sort can't attend these meetings.

That is unacceptable (IMHO) from your local. Here the monthly meeting is on a Sunday.

An over-simplification, if you will allow -

9-5, I feel you are completely correct; the problem is is that the vast majority of part time employees don't participate because there is absolutely no education (indoctrination) by the union.

The union should spend almost ZERO time with the rank & file drivers, who understand completely how to access the union, and spend 100% of the time introducing themselves to newbies & explaining the benefits of the union. Or advising the when & where of meetings at the very least.

Here, you have to be a PI to find out anything about the Union.

Here we all get a postcard every month telling the time and place of the monthly meeting. I have even seen announcements of new member meetings.

 

[sano]

Part timers aren't active?
Part of the issue may be that we are not invited into the process. Since I have worked at UPS I have not seen or heard from one person from the union hall. Don't know when the meetings are. Don't know the name of the local.
The only contact I have had is with a steward that came and got me a took me into the office when I had 2 misloads in one day.(after 2 weeks of perfect service)

I obviously have not gone out of my way to get involved, but wouldn't it seem that there should be some kind of education for part timers.

Oh but if something goes wrong and there is a strike we are expected to stand in solidarity? Hard to stand for an entity that you know nothing about.

 

[trplnkl]

Part timers aren't active?
Part of the issue may be that we are not invited into the process. Since I have worked at UPS I have not seen or heard from one person from the union hall. Don't know when the meetings are. Don't know the name of the local.
The only contact I have had is with a steward that came and got me a took me into the office when I had 2 misloads in one day.(after 2 weeks of perfect service)

I obviously have not gone out of my way to get involved, but wouldn't it seem that there should be some kind of education for part timers.

Oh but if something goes wrong and there is a strike we are expected to stand in solidarity? Hard to stand for an entity that you know nothing about.

I don't want this to sound as if I am slamming you, that is not my intention at all so here goes anyway.
You are an adult for all practical purposes. Why should someone have to lead you to an organization, that you pay dues to, whose sole purpose is to protect you in your carrier? Seriously, find your steward ask for pamphlets and/or information on your local. If you've been a member for more than a few months I would think you have received things in the mail from the union. Take an active role in your participation, don't wait to be dragged into it. Like many things in life, if YOU don't see that YOU are treated right, no one will.

 

[sano]

I don't want this to sound as if I am slamming you, that is not my intention at all so here goes anyway.
You are an adult for all practical purposes. Why should someone have to lead you to an organization, that you pay dues to, whose sole purpose is to protect you in your carrier? Seriously, find your steward ask for pamphlets and/or information on your local. If you've been a member for more than a few months I would think you have received things in the mail from the union. Take an active role in your participation, don't wait to be dragged into it. Like many things in life, if YOU don't see that YOU are treated right, no one will.

Defiantly not taken as a slam.
As far as being an adult. Was it Waylon that sang "You know my heart keeps telling me your not a kid at 33"

I understand what you are saying. My point was not about my personal involvement. I am sure I could track them down if I wanted to get involved. I was just surprised that an organization who's strength is based on the "buy in" and support of its members makes no effort to educate or court new members.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

Omega, you can be assured that Upstate does not believe in the union. Just read his posts. He would love to be a supervisor. He does enjoy the benefits though.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Omega, you can be assured that Upstate does not believe in the union. Just read his posts. He would love to be a supervisor. He does enjoy the benefits though.

W, you have finally said something worthwhile. Did I choose to work at UPS so that I could become a Teamster? No, but ours is a closed shop and that is part of the deal. You are exactly right in that I enjoy the benefits of the Union but, correct me if I am wrong, isn't it UPS that pays our Health and Welfare benefits and isn't it my $88/month that pays for my Union representation? As far as the supervisor part, yes, I have put my letter in on several occasions but, with 20 years in, it would make little sense for me to make that move at this point in my career. Besides, although we take our share of BS, they take that and much more and the last thing I want to do is end up like RB who, IMO, should walk in tomorrow morning and announce his retirement.

I find it hard to believe in a Union when guys like Chico keep getting their jobs back after all of the stupid stuff that they do.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

If the union employees treated part timers more fairly around contract time, getting laid off to part time wouldn't be as bad as it is. Just reminding everyone.

Get involved, see what happens. Maybe YOU, can make a difference. JMHO

As much as I like STUG and what he has and will continue to offer here, I do have to say that he may have gone too far and ultimately brought this upon himself. I do, however, disagree with the discipline handed out and think it could have been resolved with a meeting with all of the parties involved.

I agree with the red, but must say, there are certain freedoms we have, though I do see your point. Thanks for the pat on the back.

There will always be runners. Some people will be done at 1700 no matter how many stops you give them. I'm a very fast driver. However, I follow the methods better than most. I once went on road with a different driver as his helper. I was shocked by how much faster you could go by letting the truck idle, leaving the bulkhead open, not using your seatbelt, and running to and from the truck etc... I was actually slowing him down if all I did was walk with a brisk pace. He could do the route faster himself without a helper unless the helper actually ran their 4ss off. Some guys just don't care. I know one guy who hates this job so much he says he doesn't care if he gets fired and breaks every rule there is to get done early everynight.

Am not allowed to state my experience, though I would like to.

This is the "special Grandma that lives in the attic that nobody speaks of" around UPS. No wonder you have a bad rep here

UPS preaches advancement from within, then treats the lower tier employees like disposable diapers. Those in part-time, loaders, unloaders, etc., have had the same starting pay for 15 years. Inflation adjusted, starting pay has gone down from 35 years ago. But hey, thats ok, because we gave them benefits - that now take a year to kick in instead of 90 days.

Loaders / unloaders have a much more physically demanding job than ANYONE at UPS, and are paid less than starting wage at McDonalds. It is a harder job BY FAR (in my opinion) than driving a PC, by orders of magnitude. Anyone who argues that it is not the most physically demanding job at UPS has either forgotten what it is like, or is delusional. For PC drivers to make 4X what a loader/unloader does is criminal, a travesty.

To then have UPS management wonder why there is so much turnover and unrest in the ranks is nothing less than stupidity. As my daughter would say, "DUH!"

Us drivers here have swallowed hook, line and sinker the story we heard that we are worth it, we make more because we have gone thru the ranks, earned our stripes, we deserve it. Bullspit. If we were to be honest with ourselves, look inside ourselves, we know that we are paid a stupid-good wage for a job that is, let's face it, unskilled. We are lucky. We hit the lottery. We are like those who show disdain for those that sue for 10 billion bucks for spilling hot coffee on thier crotch, but are on the phone with 10 lawyers the moment it happens to them to try & cash in.

We cannot admit publicly the complete and total unfairness at UPS - that we are overpaid, and those that work just as hard, harder, are underpaid.

5 seconds after a particular member on this site reads this post, he will respond. He won't be able to help himself. He will say "well, everyone had a chance to vote on the contract, this is the contract you voted for", and to that I would say shame on you, and here is why;

When I started here, I knew it was a Union job. That is the extent of my understanding of unions. I knew I had to pay some of my paycheck to the unions to be employed by UPS. That is what I knew. I'm not stupid, and I'm not saying anyone just starting out at UPS is unintelligent (regarding Unions anyway). I'm saying if there is going to be a union, then the union has a duty, an absolute and complete obligation to represent ALL union brothers & sisters, MOST ESPECIALLY those that need the most help with a union contract, the new guy.

It is no secret that the starting wage is stupidly low, and driver wage is stupidly high. If the uniopn were to accomplish what they state thier mission is, this would not be the case.

I'm sorry, living, but you have hijacked this thread. Please feel free to start your own thread, so we can continue our discussion on Runners. Thanks!

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

W, you have finally said something worthwhile. Did I choose to work at UPS so that I could become a Teamster? No, but ours is a closed shop and that is part of the deal. You are exactly right in that I enjoy the benefits of the Union but, correct me if I am wrong, isn't it UPS that pays our Health and Welfare benefits and isn't it my $88/month that pays for my Union representation? As far as the supervisor part, yes, I have put my letter in on several occasions but, with 20 years in, it would make little sense for me to make that move at this point in my career. Besides, although we take our share of BS, they take that and much more and the last thing I want to do is end up like RB who, IMO, should walk in tomorrow morning and announce his retirement.

I find it hard to believe in a Union when guys like Chico keep getting their jobs back after all of the stupid stuff that they do.

You are right-UPS does pay into the Health and Welfare fund. Do you honestly believe that the amount would be even close to what it is now if you, I mean, we were non-union? Do you think the pension would be as good as it is if we were non-union? Granted, the numbers are not looking too rosy as far as the pension goes, but I guess that goes without saying these days.
Perhaps I am wrong on my assessment of you, but you put yourself out here like an open book, so it would seem to be fair game. I have seen many that carry on like you. They are very friendly with management and have all of the answers and are the best drivers in the world. And of course, they all are not fond of the union. Right up until they make a mistake and hope like heck that the union can get them out of it. As I said, maybe that is not your story, but it seems possible from reading your countless posts here. We can all be whomever or whatever we choose on the Internet. I am willing to bet that many are much different in real life than what they portray here.

 

[Bubblehead]

Loaders / unloaders have a much more physically demanding job than ANYONE at UPS, and are paid less than starting wage at McDonalds. It is a harder job BY FAR (in my opinion) than driving a PC, by orders of magnitude. Anyone who argues that it is not the most physically demanding job at UPS has either forgotten what it is like, or is delusional. For PC drivers to make 4X what a loader/unloader does is criminal, a travesty.


You have it backwards.
It's a travesty that the loader/unloaders make 1/4 of what a PC driver makes.
As a PC driver I know that I earn and deserve every penny I receive.
As for which job is the most physically demanding?
I'll use the analogy of a sprinter vs. a marathon runner.
PTer's are all out go for 4hrs.
Drivers at least 8 maybe 12hrs a day.
It's really not fair to compare the two jobs.
PT loader/unloaders were never intended to be career employees.
That's why UPS always targets college students.
Drivers endure 20 to 35+ yrs of service to retire.
The part timers are without a doubt getting a raw deal.
The Teamsters should have negotiated them a better deal although the part timers do not flex their collective muscle.
They are the majority.
The company is now ultimately suffering the consequences in a substandard work force.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

.... I am willing to bet that many are much different in real life than what they portray here....

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body...

Steve, I didn't mean to hijack, I commented on a previous post in the thread (I used the quotes & everything!) Any other questions on forum etiquette, I'm assuming I should confer with you?

 

[stevetheupsguy]

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body...

Steve, I didn't mean to hijack, I commented on a previous post in the thread (I used the quotes & everything!) Any other questions on forum etiquette, I'm assuming I should confer with you?

Not at all, living, was just sayin, I think this would make a great topic in a new thread, since this one is already spoken for. Far be it for me to talk about forum etiquette, as I'm the new kid on the block.

BTW, I was going to reply similarly to bubblehead, LOL.

 

[tieguy]

So you're saying that doing all of the methods, doesn't slow you down? Let's think about this a bit, tie. You go from maniac pace to sanity pace and you're saying there should be no change in SPORH?

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

 

[Bubblehead]

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

Typical manager.
Isolate one variable and pretend to have all the answers to a very complicated equation.
Two hour swing isn't a stretch when comparing a driver working by the methods vs. a runner/gunner.
I think Tie knows this.
Keep engaging him and we will get some good practice for the real world.

 

[Braveheart]

Runners beware! When laid off guys get to the end of their ropes they, or their friends, will start following the runners themselves and sending photos to corporate and or the news media of drivers with bulk head doors open, seat belts off, running, jumping, speeding, cutting through medians, throwing boxes, improper driver releases, running red lights, etc etc etc

Sorry to say it but it is a dog eat dog world out there. These runners are now costing drivers work and maybe their jobs.

These runners are also corrupting the system by making it appear that you can do these routes safely by the methods when we all know they never get followed.

The runners will be kicking themselves when their backs, knees, and ankles go bad.

Every so often I watch as a driver is walked off the property for an accident all in the name of running the numbers. Carma is a mean bitch.

 

[brownrodster]

Did you say you lost two hours? Thats a whole lot of slowing down and explains why you're getting so much attention. You could shut the bulkhead door twice each time you deliver a pkg and still not lose two hours. You need to reevaluate why you've lost so much time.

It is very possible for someone who neglects all the methods, skips breaks and lunch to make up several hours over someone using the methods.

I peak helped a driver who I cover sometimes. He was a crazy runner and does the impossible. He does in less than 9 hours what is impossible for me to do in 12 while following all the methods and still being one of the fastest drivers in the center.

Last time I ran a route a long time ago was the last time came in underallowed on a route. I did all the crazy stuff to get done early because I had to be done early for personal stuff after work. I barely beat the route by a few minutes when I normally come in 1.5-2 hours over and follow all the methods. That was the last time I ran a route and I realized how bogus their numbers are. From then on I just made sure I worked safe and followed their methods. Granted, we haven't had time studies in over 20 years and 1 hour over is considered good. But they still ride us over these bogus numbers! 2 hours over and they still read you the riot act.


You have no clue. You have no idea what it's like to do these ridiculously terrible routes that are designed in an office by some bloke who's never been on road. You can shave hours off your day by running to and from the truck, skipping breaks and lunches, keeping your bulkhead door open, leaving your truck idling, not using your seatbelt, DR packages in every driveway instead of going to the house, speeding like a madman, showing up an hour early to set up the truck off the clock, ditching time wasting stops into neighboring trucks... That is what a "runner" does. These things do happen here sometimes by a few individuals. We are not on PAS, EDD or telematics.

Sometimes when I complete a stop while following all methods as taught I think about that driver I rode with and how he would have completely left me in the dust and been a few stops down the road in the time it took me to do everything correctly and safely.

 

[tieguy]

It is very possible for someone who neglects all the methods, skips breaks and lunch to make up several hours over someone using the methods.

Ok well if you're telling me steve was skipping his lunch before then that would help explain two hours.

Keep in mind this question is not asking about a route that you feel is unfairly timestudied and is always two hours over regardless of who runs it. I'm talking about you are making the allowance and all of a sudden you lose two hours. thats a huge swing. you have to do a lot of slowing down to make that big a swing.

but exactly what did you do that saved you a lot of time but you labeled as being all the crazy things you do. Two hours is a huge swing.

I've heard all the arguments about work being taken off a route for the ojs ride. But I've also seen where that can work against you. The extra stops can improve the stop density thus making it easier to be productive.

Steve how was your performance on the ojs rides you've had and what feedback did you get that the onroad felt would help you bring it in?

were you skipping lunch before and not getting paid for it?

 

[UPS Lifer]

It is interesting to see this thread develop!

Someone decided that if all the "runners and gunners" BTW - (sidetrack) Where I came from drivers who were under-allowed were called "Producers" so I kind of chuckle when I hear runner/gunner (sorry!). Similar to calling a non producer a "slug" or "in the hole". I went to another district and the term was "in the weeds". Anyway....

Do you really think that getting the gunners to slow down is going to keep drivers from being laid off?

These gunners are keeping stops off you drivers that are complaining you are working over 9.5 hours!!! Just check out the other threads. With out them you get more work.

Do you really think the company can afford to add drivers during this depression? BTW - It ain't a recession!! LOL! Just look around at the closed businesses and empty homes.

If the delicate balance starts swinging the wrong way - The company starts MAJOR layoffs.

Performance is a bell curve. You have slugs on one side (2 hours over) and average drivers at the top (scratch + -) and gunners (2 hours under) on the other side. If you start moving the curve down the sliding scale of performance the company starts losing millions and millions.... just one tenth is HUGE!

I don't know... maybe it is because I am sitting on the sideline but I would be happy that I have a paycheck and can feed my family. These are the most unusual of times. You can feel bad for the next guy and pray they find work but be glad your company is not sitting on the verge of annihilation like GM.

Can you imagine a situation where a company pays employees to sit at home during a layoff. Now the entire workforce of GM is in jeopardy and without our help they would all be sitting at home.

Where is the outrage of the drivers (slugs) who are stealing from you on the other end?

Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?

Sorry - I can't feel bad about you guys complaining about runners.

KARMA
Here is the thing - gunners and slugs will take care of themselves. They will get what is coming to them. Go out and do a fair days work for a fair days pay and you will get what is coming to you. It's all good!

 

[Livin the Dream?]

"...Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?..."


In our center, where everyone is overloaded, you would be very, very surprised to see what percentage of drivers would welcome that.

 

[UPS Lifer]

"...Maybe all drivers should give up one or two days of pay a week to allow the drivers who are laid off to work? How do you think that would go over?..."


In our center, where everyone is overloaded, you would be very, very surprised to see what percentage of drivers would welcome that.

I think that is a wonderful sentiment - My hat is off to you and the drivers that feel that way. .... and it goes both ways - Management is already taking a hit on raises and increases and frozen jobs (which generally means more work).

Of course the next argument is the additional cost of benefits - pension - healthcare etc. etc. etc.

It would be a lot of work and effort and cost - but if it could be worked out - wouldn't that be a way to "split the baby"?

You have to remember that profit and fairness are the keys to success. The company needs to be profitable for everyone's sake and the employees need to be treated fairly.

Unfortunately in bad times the balance of power can lean toward the company. The balance between the company and the employees need to be maintained.

I am not hearing about a lot of layoffs. What is everyone's experience on this. Is it one or two per center? Or what?

 

[trplnkl]

With all due respect, and I feel you deserve much respect. A better way of splitting that baby would be for each driver to give up an hour or two of overtime so that additional driver can work.
Not everyone that works two hours over allowed is a slug, not all areas are time studied equally and not all time allowances are fair. I understand that the added expenses of an additional driver,(retirement,H&W etc.) drive up the cost more than and hours worth of OT, but there are other costs to over working drivers on a constant bases also. One person on worker's comp for six weeks can cost the company thousands of dollars. Some of those injuries would be avoided if the people were not worked 10-11-12 hours per day.
There are many things that should be considered when a company decides to have 5 people do a job that actually take 7 people to do.