Spies, Lies and Wiretaps

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by automated, Jan 28, 2006.

  1. automated

    automated Active Member

    Editorial: Spies, Lies and Wiretaps

    Instead of the legal, constitutional and moral justifications for the warrantless spying on Americans, we've received only the familiar mix of political spin, clumsy historical misinformation and a couple of big, dangerous lies.

    Link To Original Article
  2. automated

    automated Active Member

  3. cheryl

    cheryl I started this. Staff Member

    The link that you pasted required registration to read the article so I moved the post that had already been placed in the New York Times forum to this thread.
  4. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Interesting. Everyone keeps saying that the rights of countless americans have been violated by illegal wire taps.

    Name one.

  5. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    If you have Real Player click on the "video highlight" box at the upper righthand corner of the page is a discussion from the NBC Nightly News on this topic.
  6. Well, since they won't release who they've spied on, and the court cases have yet to be heard, it would tough to name names. If any of my calls to friends overseas who I regularly discuss politics with have been eavesdropped on, I would say my rights have been violated.

    I do know people who have made FOIA requests for any information on themselves, and have been turned down for National Security reasons. Does that count?

    The whole thing sounds all too Nixonian to me.
  7. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Nixonian would appear to be quite a stretch.

    That spying was for political opportunity. This for national security. I have family in Germany. I have no problem with the government listening in on those phone calls. I have nothing to hide. If your concerned about the government listening to phone calls going overseas then your concern is with more than just the Bush administration. I'm sure NSA has been listening in for decades.
  8. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    What is interesting is that the generation that protested "big Brother" in the 60's and 70's are now big brother.

    You really think that they have the time to listen to every conversation that takes place from here to over seas? Give me a break.

    Reminds me of a bunch of very paranoid people.

  9. Yeah, you guys are right. The Fourth Amendment isn't all that important. Who needs it?
  10. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Its very important. Won't do me much good if Ali Babba kills me and my family. If they eavesdrop responsibly to catch terrorists and major drug runners I don't think there will be too many americans who get bent out of shape over this. Thats why this issue has really only gotten a stir out of the press and your hardcore liberals.
  11. automated

    automated Active Member

    Op-Ed Contributor: Why We Listen

    In the debate over whether the National Security Agency's eavesdropping violated the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, we must not lose sight of the fact that the world we entered on 9/11 will require rewriting that statute and other laws.

    Link To Original Article
  12. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Who said it was not important? You!

  13. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I don't think they listen to every call or every word but rather focus on sniffing across the board looking for certain keywords. It the system picks up on those words then the call is targeted specifically for close surveillance and the 2 parties tagged as potentials.

    The FBI's Carnivore program would be a good place to start if you wanted some idea how these systems works. How Stuff Works has a pretty good article on Carnivore if you want to check it out.


    Gotta tell you a very funny story about gov't sniffing. Back in the 80's there was a fellow very involved in the Tax Protest movement of the day and at the time phone tapping was still a science that gave of evidence of it's presense if you knew what to listen for. Well this fellow happen to hear what he thought was wire tap evidence so he and a friend decided to test their theory. The IRS had been looking high and low to discover where this guy hid his income so they could seize it as they had outstanding liens against him. This gentlemen decided to call him friend and tell him over the phone about where he had all his gold and silver buried in case something happened to he and his wife. He explained to his friend that the gold and silver was buried 9 to 12 inches deep in multiple locations within a certain area. He told the guy the layout of the gird area and then told him to just plow up that area to a 9 to 12 inch depth and the containers with the gold and silver would come to the surface. 3 days later the IRS show up with tractor and plow and begin to turn up this exact plot of land. The gentleman and his wife came out with tools and wheelbarrow and when the IRS was done having found nothing, they thanked the IRS for being so neighborly and plowing up their garden and then they began the planting process.

    True Story? Hard to say but the point is I doubt Al Queda operates in such as open way via phone conversations so now one has to ask how effective is this listening proving to be? That's hard to say as well.
  14. Fellas,

    I, for one, welcome our new electronic overlords.

    One point worth noting is that we don't know if the eavesdropping was done for security or political purposes. (Remember the Andrea Mitchell question to James Risen about spying on Christiane Amanpour?) The excuses I've heard from this administration on why they had to circumvent FISA have been pretty darn weak. Hearings on the NSA spying case start next week in the Senate Judiciary Committee. This attorney has some well thought out questions, IMO:

    Read it if you're interested.

    There is also a fine article in Newsweek, available online, about some very good people who resigned because of what is happening in the White House:
  15. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    ...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

    ...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist....

    ...The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State.

    Source of the above quotes:


  16. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Great dialogue. Concerns as to whether congress will ask the right questions. Another post on facism. Its important that we do everything we can to undermine our security. Not having a single terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11 is totally unacceptable. Lets loosen up these oppressive security measures so we can once again enjoy the sight of burning americans jumping to their deaths.
  17. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    Watched the movie "Flight 93" on A&E last night. Five Years later and it's all still very fresh in my memory. It still amazes me what those bastards were able to do within OUR country.

    So, listen away....spy away....gather all the info. necessary to keep us safe. If you aren't doing anything underhanded or illegal, the surveillance shouldn't bother you. JMHO
  18. I don't believe anyone has a problem with the government listening in on terrorist communications. Most of us expect it. The law is quite clear on this issue, and gives the government quite a bit of leeway. There is no reason that the law cannot be followed. No one is above the law.

    I have to wonder, Osama and Zawahiri both give threats of imminent terrorist attacks inside the US, and the alert level isn't raised? What's with that? reminds me of early August 2001, when the Presidential Daily Briefing was entitled " Bin Laden determined to strike in US".
  19. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Unlike you Tie I don't buy the reasserting of the cold war by the military industrial complex and the "commie under every rock" thinkin'. Why is it that we hear these new tapes time and time again from Osama and his underlings but the terror threat level never changes. And as for drug dealers, you need to do some research my friend on the history of drugs in America and you may learn the biggest drug dealer is the one you vote for every election. Go research the East India Tea company and it's history with the Golden Triangle and then come forward into American history and the gov't/corp. connections in that area. Today we find ourselves slap in the middle of the area known as the Golden Crescent. Connection? Ever wonder why it was the CIA who tested and attempted to exploit LSD for social engineering purposes? Many would contend with some good evidence that it was the CIA and this testing that introduced LSD to the early 60's counter-culture and if so who is to blame for that part of the drug social menace?

    As for the CIA, go back to the mid 70's to Sen. Frank Church's Intelligence Committee hearings on the many CIA operational abuses they uncovered. CIA had a clear mission ban of domestic spying but they did it anyway all under the cover of the Cold War and the communist threat. Turns out the 007 nonsense wasn't really needed after all and the circumstances of today just look so familar. You want safety? I agree however abolish the CIA entirely and give intelligence over to the real experts in our US military. IMO, that's where it should be and should have been all along. The CIA is a walking blunder after blunder after blunder and I absolutely do not trust them at all. You know it's interesting that Patton wanted to take his 3rd army and unite it with Germany's Waffen SS and march in an stomp out Moscow but the precurser to the CIA, the OSS and it's many operatives blocked that and then several years later you have McArthur wanting to make a move for victory in Korea. Now it's open to debate whether either or both would have been successful but the point was we had a shot to end what became a 40 year non-shooting war between ourselves and the Soviet Union or rather International Communism and we didn't take it. I guess you'd say it's the liberal pansies among us and at one time I'd been right there with you. But the truth sadly paints another picture that is far beyond that simplistic.

    You hold on to those simplistic ideals and enjoy the life you have but do this one thing and learn from my mistake. Many years ago an opportunity arose for me while moving in circles well beyond my standing in life. That opportunity was to peek inside Pandora's box and I did. Don't look inside the box Tie. As Chef said in Apocyalpse Now, "Never Get off the G#d D##N Boat!" There are tigers in the jungle for you to fear but they ain't Osama tigers. C ya!


    On a side note, still having warm weather? For the most part here it's like early spring. I know for the long haul it ain't good but if this is global warming I could get use to this!
    Oh and we had fat juicy T-Bones on the grill this past weekend and yes they were good!

    Gas is for farting, charcoal is for cooking!