The growth of our forum

[hypo hanna]

I think both tactics compliment each other. Plus it has the added benefit of stretching Fred's anti union, anti hourly resources to the max. Internal security, HR and managers from every level would have their hands full trying to get in front of this before it overwhelms them.

 

[Ricochet1a]

I think both tactics compliment each other. Plus it has the added benefit of stretching Fred's anti union, anti hourly resources to the max. Internal security, HR and managers from every level would have their hands full trying to get in front of this before it overwhelms them.

It may cause Fred problems in the near term, but in the long term, it could kill chances of successful organizing.

Rule #1 for corporations attempting to fend off labor organizers. Break solidarity among the group attempting to organize and pit one interest group against another. Put another way, divide and conquer.

That is why getting information with regards to the median length of service of a Courier could prove critical. If the median term of service is above 13 years or so, then given the observed tendencies of the Couriers, organizing would be difficult if not impossible. If the median term of service is 10 years or less, then it would be a snap. Express knows this information. Right now, none of us here know it - I'm fairly certain the IBT doesn't even know it.

 

[vantexan]

in the very same posting....



So what the hell is it??? Is it false hope, or is it something that you'd make into a job... (or is it something that you don't believe in but are willing to put aside personal belief in order to make a living).

On the one hand it is 'false hope', not a few seconds later it is 'I would gladly.... hand out cards'.

So are you willing to hand out false hope in order to make a living for yourself???? Sure as hell looks like that to me....

In my book that is what I'd call a 'sell-out' and what I pegged you as from the beginning. You'll sell out to whoever is willing to line your pocket.

I've NEVER seen a weather vane spin so quickly...



If you are so willing to hand out cards..., Come on down to the River Jordan and get Baptized into the labor movement.

You lead the charge and I wouldn't feel the need to post here.

Are you just dense, or what? I never said we don't need union representation and protection. Just don't expect a union to give you UPS comparable pay and benefits as long as FedEx is primarily an airfreight company. If you can't figure that out from my posts then we need a different messiah.

 

[MAKAVELI]

in the very same posting....



So what the hell is it??? Is it false hope, or is it something that you'd make into a job... (or is it something that you don't believe in but are willing to put aside personal belief in order to make a living).

On the one hand it is 'false hope', not a few seconds later it is 'I would gladly.... hand out cards'.

So are you willing to hand out false hope in order to make a living for yourself???? Sure as hell looks like that to me....

In my book that is what I'd call a 'sell-out' and what I pegged you as from the beginning. You'll sell out to whoever is willing to line your pocket.

I've NEVER seen a weather vane spin so quickly...



If you are so willing to hand out cards..., Come on down to the River Jordan and get Baptized into the labor movement.

You lead the charge and I wouldn't feel the need to post here.

Are you just dense, or what? I never said we don't need union representation and protection. Just don't expect a union to give you UPS comparable pay and benefits as long as FedEx is primarily an airfreight company. If you can't figure that out from my posts then we need a different messiah.

I know this is beating a dead horse but no one at my sta expects ups pay. Would it be nice? Yea, but most are realistic and just expect to be topped out in a reasonable time, a set increase yearly that can't be taken away on a arbitrarily way , stop increasing medical premiums and decreasing benefits, better retirement pkg, input on work rules and in my opinion one of the most important, a grievance procedure. Now if we can't ask for these things, why do we need a union?

 

[vantexan]

I know this is beating a dead horse but no one at my sta expects ups pay. Would it be nice? Yea, but most are realistic and just expect to be topped out in a reasonable time, a set increase yearly that can't be taken away on a arbitrarily way , stop increasing medical premiums and decreasing benefits, better retirement pkg, input on work rules and in my opinion one of the most important, a grievance procedure. Now if we can't ask for these things, why do we need a union?

And those are perfectly legitimate things to ask for but the idea of getting comparable pay has been pushed plenty of times on this forum. Getting a union isn't all or nothing, but R1a is saying if I point out that a union won't solve all our problems and give us everything we want then I'm anti-union. Not so and it irritates the hell out of me that we can't discuss every aspect without being accused of selling out, etc because what I say may not be 100% pro-union 24/7. Don't sell a union as the answer to everything like R1a does and you won't hear a peep out of me. He talks like he's in this for altruistic reasons but I suspect he stands to gain in some way.

 

[MrFedEx]

It may cause Fred problems in the near term, but in the long term, it could kill chances of successful organizing.

Rule #1 for corporations attempting to fend off labor organizers. Break solidarity among the group attempting to organize and pit one interest group against another. Put another way, divide and conquer.

That is why getting information with regards to the median length of service of a Courier could prove critical. If the median term of service is above 13 years or so, then given the observed tendencies of the Couriers, organizing would be difficult if not impossible. If the median term of service is 10 years or less, then it would be a snap. Express knows this information. Right now, none of us here know it - I'm fairly certain the IBT doesn't even know it.

I don't think "resistance is futile" or that it will break solidarity. Contrary to what some have said on here, I don't see that many senior people all that happy with FedEx. Being topped-out doesn't compensate one for the general BS and the fact that even a full FedEx retirement with 25 years under the old plan is about half of what UPS gets. In other words, Fred hasn't exactly showered these people with gold either.

"Observed tendencies" can change, and right now things are changing fast. For the first time, lots of people are asking questions, and not the usual stupid fawning ones designed to curry favor with management. There are a lot of unhappy campers unwilling to do anything more than they have to, which has to be an enormous drag on productivity, and eventually...profit. The more people who start resisting intelligently, the slower the FedEx system operates, and it has always been dependent on at least a few going "above and beyond" to make things happen. Anyone who has been on the AGFS side knows that it's controlled chaos most of the time anyway, and that it doesn't take much for the multiplier effect of mistakes to screw-up the whole shooting match.

Unified hatred of Smith and unified action against him sound good to me.

 

[overflowed]

It may cause Fred problems in the near term, but in the long term, it could kill chances of successful organizing.

Rule #1 for corporations attempting to fend off labor organizers. Break solidarity among the group attempting to organize and pit one interest group against another. Put another way, divide and conquer.

That is why getting information with regards to the median length of service of a Courier could prove critical. If the median term of service is above 13 years or so, then given the observed tendencies of the Couriers, organizing would be difficult if not impossible. If the median term of service is 10 years or less, then it would be a snap. Express knows this information. Right now, none of us here know it - I'm fairly certain the IBT doesn't even know it.

We are losing so many couriers so quickly that median is dipping lower and lower every month. At a rate I've never seen with my time at this company. Not the usual slackers but good, experienced couriers. The last 5 were 8-15 year employees.

 

[Ricochet1a]

I don't think "resistance is futile" or that it will break solidarity. Contrary to what some have said on here, I don't see that many senior people all that happy with FedEx. Being topped-out doesn't compensate one for the general BS and the fact that even a full FedEx retirement with 25 years under the old plan is about half of what UPS gets. In other words, Fred hasn't exactly showered these people with gold either.

"Observed tendencies" can change, and right now things are changing fast. For the first time, lots of people are asking questions, and not the usual stupid fawning ones designed to curry favor with management. There are a lot of unhappy campers unwilling to do anything more than they have to, which has to be an enormous drag on productivity, and eventually...profit. The more people who start resisting intelligently, the slower the FedEx system operates, and it has always been dependent on at least a few going "above and beyond" to make things happen. Anyone who has been on the AGFS side knows that it's controlled chaos most of the time anyway, and that it doesn't take much for the multiplier effect of mistakes to screw-up the whole shooting match.

Unified hatred of Smith and unified action against him sound good to me.

Right now, keeping as much solidarity as possible is VITAL if any attempt is to be made at organizing. Anti-union tactics involve the employer DELIBERATELY attempting to pit one 'faction' of a group against another, to prevent the building of commonality of purpose among ALL members of the group. Why do you think the last pay action of Express had differing percentages going to different time in service groups??? It wasn't Fred being generous to those past half progression.... When Fred spends money, it is for a purpose.

As to categorizing demographics (this is to all readers), do your own 'study'.

Get out cards using some of the methods I suggested. Talk to your coworkers. KEEP TRACK of the sentiments of your coworkers and create a 'demographic' that you can use to describe the population. Finding people that are pissed off about their compensation is easy - very few are happy with how they are being paid or the working conditions. In all honesty, for purposes of organizing, that isn't what is really important.

What is important is gauging the sentiment towards actually signing those representation cards. Someone can be pissed off as hell, but if at the mention of signing a union card they step back in horror - then they aren't going to sign and will not vote 'Yes' if a certification vote is ever to be held. The important thing towards building organization is the WILLINGNESS TO COMMIT TO SIGNING A REPRESENTATION CARD. That is all that matters. Employees can be pissed off and spitting fire, if they hem and haw about signing a union card - then they haven't reached the point where they are willing to trust in what the IBT CAN do for them - rather than hope that Fred won't do even more to them. Given that the IBT is M.I.A., trying to get someone to make that decision is even more difficult - but if they cannot or will not get out of Express, it is the ONLY DECISION they have to make, to sign or not. Everything else is just a distraction.

Pissed off employees ISN'T the 'measure'; employees willing to sign those union cards IS. That is what I illustrated with my simplified 'demographic profile' and I think it holds true across most of the nation. If someone who actually hands out representation cards finds differently, let me know (do it quick, since I'm probably going to take another long break from posting starting the end of this week). I can hear a certain perpetually confused Courier cheering as he reads​ this.....

.........................

As to some wanting to 'debate' what a union can do for them... It is akin to attempting to decide whether a woman is partially pregnant. There is no partial support, it is one way or another, Yes or No. If someone wants to debate what a union can do BEFORE a union is even certified, then they are in the 'No' column and of no use to those who want to place their trust in union.

In organizing, there are no guarantees, no 'partially for' a union and no 'I'll sign if I get what I want'. It is one way or another, place your belief in what organizing can do FOR YOU, or your belief in that Fred won't do too much more TO YOU. Simple as that.

.........................

As far as 'dragging down productivity' - have at it. However, if building a grassroots network of organizers is difficult, how difficult would it be to get a group of employees in different locations to act in concert to have a noticeable impact on operations? It won't happen. You are asking employees to 'take that bullet', for what would be a futile purpose. No one needs to take a bullet. It would actually be counter productive, since the remainder would see what Express management did to the 'hot head', and make a firm decision to not stick their head up and refuse to sign a rep card should one ever be put in front of them.

By attempting to engage in coordinated work stoppages, the logic is essentially - 'pay us what we want or we will destroy your company'.

If I'm wrong here, let me know...

Now.... in a roundabout manner, this is what unions do, they make a very real, LEGALLY protected, 'threat' against an employer, that if they don't bargain with their employees, that the company will be faced with "destruction" (strike).

However... outside that legally protected process (union negotiating), threats such as this are seen and treated as extortion by the employer - and dealt with accordingly. I've advocated that employees follow the 'letter of procedure' of Express, and that alone will slow things down noticeably - without anyone needing to take a proverbial bullet.

..................

As far as things 'changing fast'.... It has been almost two weeks since the announcement of no pay raises was made. What has changed? A number of pissed off posters here have indeed made an attempt to contact the IBT and have been given the cold shoulder (my hat is off to you who have done so). That confirms where the IBT is right now.

How many have come back and stated that they are starting to distribute rep cards in their stations??? A few have stated that they intend on doing so, but just how many cards have been distributed in the past 10 days?

People may be asking questions..... So why not get representation cards into their hands and see who they want to 'vote for' (Fred or Hoffa). That is what the issue really is when all is boiled down to its simplest elements - who are they going to vote for???

If they are spitting hellfire but unwilling to petition for union representation, then nothing will change.

I've been in the hellhole of AGFS - I know what happens there. The employees there turnover so quick that the Ramp Agents and Team Leaders barely have a chance to get to know someone before they get fed up and quit. Express' worst enemy in AGFS is their own productivity demands and low staffing goals. They push the employees to accomplish the task at hand and then have to deal with the mess (late departures, massive missorts) that result out of trying to gain productivity out of people making $12-13/hr being pushed to the limit. The handlers and material handlers don't care, and since they aren't given incentive enough to care, there are late departures and massive missorts - which I heard with the current push for 'service', is causing a rather large increase in Courier on road time to try to keep RDLs from turning into WDLs. That is eating into profits....​ Thank the handlers in AGFS for that...

 

[vantexan]

I can hear a certain perpetually confused Courier cheering as he reads​ this.....

I understand all too clearly. You represent the kind of sleezy, parasitic element we'll have to align with to get organized. When a company exists primarily to enrich a relative few it has a corrosive effect on all who deal with it long enough, striving to get their share whether management or labor. Make no mistake, unions might be a necessary evil, but they make their living off the efforts of others, and I suspect you are such a person. Now excuse me, I need to go take a shower after dealing with you.

 

[MrFedEx]

Right now, keeping as much solidarity as possible is VITAL if any attempt is to be made at organizing. Anti-union tactics involve the employer DELIBERATELY attempting to pit one 'faction' of a group against another, to prevent the building of commonality of purpose among ALL members of the group. Why do you think the last pay action of Express had differing percentages going to different time in service groups??? It wasn't Fred being generous to those past half progression.... When Fred spends money, it is for a purpose.

As to categorizing demographics (this is to all readers), do your own 'study'.

Get out cards using some of the methods I suggested. Talk to your coworkers. KEEP TRACK of the sentiments of your coworkers and create a 'demographic' that you can use to describe the population. Finding people that are pissed off about their compensation is easy - very few are happy with how they are being paid or the working conditions. In all honesty, for purposes of organizing, that isn't what is really important.

What is important is gauging the sentiment towards actually signing those representation cards. Someone can be pissed off as hell, but if at the mention of signing a union card they step back in horror - then they aren't going to sign and will not vote 'Yes' if a certification vote is ever to be held. The important thing towards building organization is the WILLINGNESS TO COMMIT TO SIGNING A REPRESENTATION CARD. That is all that matters. Employees can be pissed off and spitting fire, if they hem and haw about signing a union card - then they haven't reached the point where they are willing to trust in what the IBT CAN do for them - rather than hope that Fred won't do even more to them. Given that the IBT is M.I.A., trying to get someone to make that decision is even more difficult - but if they cannot or will not get out of Express, it is the ONLY DECISION they have to make, to sign or not. Everything else is just a distraction.

Pissed off employees ISN'T the 'measure'; employees willing to sign those union cards IS. That is what I illustrated with my simplified 'demographic profile' and I think it holds true across most of the nation. If someone who actually hands out representation cards finds differently, let me know (do it quick, since I'm probably going to take another long break from posting starting the end of this week). I can hear a certain perpetually confused Courier cheering as he reads​ this.....

.........................

As to some wanting to 'debate' what a union can do for them... It is akin to attempting to decide whether a woman is partially pregnant. There is no partial support, it is one way or another, Yes or No. If someone wants to debate what a union can do BEFORE a union is even certified, then they are in the 'No' column and of no use to those who want to place their trust in union.

In organizing, there are no guarantees, no 'partially for' a union and no 'I'll sign if I get what I want'. It is one way or another, place your belief in what organizing can do FOR YOU, or your belief in that Fred won't do too much more TO YOU. Simple as that.

.........................

As far as 'dragging down productivity' - have at it. However, if building a grassroots network of organizers is difficult, how difficult would it be to get a group of employees in different locations to act in concert to have a noticeable impact on operations? It won't happen. You are asking employees to 'take that bullet', for what would be a futile purpose. No one needs to take a bullet. It would actually be counter productive, since the remainder would see what Express management did to the 'hot head', and make a firm decision to not stick their head up and refuse to sign a rep card should one ever be put in front of them.

By attempting to engage in coordinated work stoppages, the logic is essentially - 'pay us what we want or we will destroy your company'.

If I'm wrong here, let me know...

Now.... in a roundabout manner, this is what unions do, they make a very real, LEGALLY protected, 'threat' against an employer, that if they don't bargain with their employees, that the company will be faced with "destruction" (strike).

However... outside that legally protected process (union negotiating), threats such as this are seen and treated as extortion by the employer - and dealt with accordingly. I've advocated that employees follow the 'letter of procedure' of Express, and that alone will slow things down noticeably - without anyone needing to take a proverbial bullet.

..................

As far as things 'changing fast'.... It has been almost two weeks since the announcement of no pay raises was made. What has changed? A number of pissed off posters here have indeed made an attempt to contact the IBT and have been given the cold shoulder (my hat is off to you who have done so). That confirms where the IBT is right now.

How many have come back and stated that they are starting to distribute rep cards in their stations??? A few have stated that they intend on doing so, but just how many cards have been distributed in the past 10 days?

People may be asking questions..... So why not get representation cards into their hands and see who they want to 'vote for' (Fred or Hoffa). That is what the issue really is when all is boiled down to its simplest elements - who are they going to vote for???

If they are spitting hellfire but unwilling to petition for union representation, then nothing will change.

I've been in the hellhole of AGFS - I know what happens there. The employees there turnover so quick that the Ramp Agents and Team Leaders barely have a chance to get to know someone before they get fed up and quit. Express' worst enemy in AGFS is their own productivity demands and low staffing goals. They push the employees to accomplish the task at hand and then have to deal with the mess (late departures, massive missorts) that result out of trying to gain productivity out of people making $12-13/hr being pushed to the limit. The handlers and material handlers don't care, and since they aren't given incentive enough to care, there are late departures and massive missorts - which I heard with the current push for 'service', is causing a rather large increase in Courier on road time to try to keep RDLs from turning into WDLs. That is eating into profits....​ Thank the handlers in AGFS for that...

I agree that just talking about signing cards means nothing. So does talking about gumming-up the operation, or doing it stupidly. Intelligent action is required...action that makes the FedEx system work inefficiently. We need WDL's, RDL's and service failures, along with poor customer service. I think hypohanna has it just about right, which means overloading them incrementally until it causes the "mother ship" to implode or otherwise breakdown. This is totally doable, and nobody needs to get fired. In fact, for many people, it will actually add hours to their paychecks.

Working as directed, doing everything by the book, and just plain slowing down (implicit in both of these strategies) will cause significant problems. No, it won't cause Express to go under, but it will "threaten profits" and show productivity losses when Wall Street and industry analysts are expecting productivity gains.

The greatest imperative is to actually sign a card, and convince others that they need to sign them too. Nothing will ever go our way until Fred S is forced to negotiate with us. Right now, he doesn't need to, so he won't, and Memphis will double-down on efforts to make us comply. All anyone really needs to understand about Smith and Express is that we need to force them into a situation where they have no choice but to bargain with us.

That means a union, plain and simple. No cards, no union, and the status quo of abuse continues unabated.