The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!
- Thread starter Sportello
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PT 4 Life
Most-Hated Member
It’s simple Russia doesn’t want nato close to their borders. I get it because we wouldn’t be cool with Russian military presence at our borders. Like if Mexico or Canada joined them.
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wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
Congratulations.
You're smarter than everybody else in this thread. If Finland had joined before, it would have been provocation for war and incentive for Russia to attack them before they could join.
And that's why we have Ukraine in its current situation.
Overpaid Union Thug
Well-Known Member
The Baltic States are up against Russia and are in NATO. How's that different from Finland? Russia has threatened Sweden too but Sweden is separated from Russia by Finland. And if Russia had conquered Ukraine they would've been next to three NATO countries. On closer examination these countries are in NATO because of past Russian aggression. Russia is the problem, not NATO.
wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
You should congratulate Russia on taking that aggression from NATO and not attacking. NATO continued to press its luck and test Russia's patience.
wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
Yes, and you have just now discovered why Putin doesn't want to conquer Ukraine. He wants to control it, install a puppet for a buffer against NATO, and then leave.
He already had that, we we overthrew that government in 2014. He literally wants what he already had 8 years ago.
Does he have the right to or does Ukraine have the rights of sovereignty and self determination?
Seems to be NATO grew because Eastern European countries already had experienced Russian domination and they wanted freedom from that.
wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
The only case I've made is for the people of Donbass to be respected by both of them.
The history is so tangled and fraught that determining a clean, natural right to the land is completely impossible.
I've said 100 times that I'm indifferent between Putin and Z-Tran in those respects.
Ukraine is a fake country. Putin doesn't really have a right to it either.
Why do you consider Ukraine fake?
wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
Because the lines are drawn without respect for the natural boundaries between the majority people groups who live in the region. That's why i've compared it to Iraq.
It will always be tyrannical, because a heavy hand in the center is the only way to keep irreconcilable people groups together. That's why Saddam, Putin, and everybody else over similarly diverse lands will always be concentrated in power.
Looked it up and as of 2001 ethnic Ukrainians made up almost 78% of the population and ethnic Russians made up just over 17% with a smattering of smaller ethnic minorities. Blacks make a little under 13% of the U.S. Should we carve out a homeland for them? Ukraine's borders were set long ago. The biggest addition to them in recent generations was Khrushchev gave them the Crimean Peninsula which is 82% ethnic Russian and 10% ethnic Tatar. In the 2001 census the two divisions of the Donbas region had a 58% and 57% ethnic Ukrainian majority. Ethnic Russians stood at 39% and 38%. Today due to Russia supporting Russian separatists for 10 years many Ukrainians in that region have fled. If any area had a right to demand a change in political boundaries it was the ethnic Russians in Crimea.
wilberforce15
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is clear you just looked it up.
So? You're trying to make the ethnic Russians in the Donbas the victims who should be allowed to separate and govern themselves. Truth is that the Soviets shipped in well over 100,000 back in the 1940's and others migrated in later. It was Ukrainian land and should remain that way. The Russians during the Soviet era moved Russians into all the Soviet Republics to dominate locals. It's what they do.
cheney and bush got him beat
bottomups
Bad Moon Risen'
Did you hit your head while snowboarding?
Overpaid Union Thug
Well-Known Member
That’s makes absolutely no sense but ok.
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