What Caused the Financial Meltdown?
- Thread starter UPS Lifer
- Start date
moreluck
golden ticket member
So now they've gone home for the Jewish Holiday ???!!! I hope they choke on their Challah ,apples & honey !!
Those congress people should be behind locked doors and not allowed out 'til this debacle is solved. I would expect them to work through Xmas if this was happening in December.....so don't call me a bigot!
Those congress people should be behind locked doors and not allowed out 'til this debacle is solved. I would expect them to work through Xmas if this was happening in December.....so don't call me a bigot!
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
We lost over $1 trillion today.
We need a better bill. As long as this bill didn't pass they need to regurgitate it and make it better. If Wall St can't hang on a few more days - OH WELL!
Let's get a better piece of legislation than what was presented to the Congress and get it passed. Main St is Wall St and we need to take care of Main St first - free up the credit and punish the management teams and CEO and Boards of these financial institutions who got us into this mess. As far as I am concerned they can rot in jail!
I am actually amazed that there are Congress men and women that actually listened to their constituents and voted against this.
The Democrats are blaming the Republicans but 12 Democrats on Barney Franks committee which he chairs (House Financial Services Committee) did not vote for the bill!!!! ...and he has the GAUL to call out the Republicans. I want to throw up!
We need a better bill. As long as this bill didn't pass they need to regurgitate it and make it better. If Wall St can't hang on a few more days - OH WELL!
Let's get a better piece of legislation than what was presented to the Congress and get it passed. Main St is Wall St and we need to take care of Main St first - free up the credit and punish the management teams and CEO and Boards of these financial institutions who got us into this mess. As far as I am concerned they can rot in jail!
I am actually amazed that there are Congress men and women that actually listened to their constituents and voted against this.
The Democrats are blaming the Republicans but 12 Democrats on Barney Franks committee which he chairs (House Financial Services Committee) did not vote for the bill!!!! ...and he has the GAUL to call out the Republicans. I want to throw up!
DS
Fenderbender
I know little to nothing about all the deals these obesely rich corporations make to feed thier bellies,but this has got me, a Canadian,quite worried.
It seems that the guilty partys should be willing to work with the government, putting the need to get richer and richer on the back burner until this economic disaster is resolved.Where is the patriotism that made America the great country it is? In my opinion any bank or lending institution that gave loans to people that could not pay it back should be penalized.
It seems that the guilty partys should be willing to work with the government, putting the need to get richer and richer on the back burner until this economic disaster is resolved.Where is the patriotism that made America the great country it is? In my opinion any bank or lending institution that gave loans to people that could not pay it back should be penalized.
moreluck
golden ticket member
"moreluck, I thought you were against a bailout, now you want them to work day and night to pass one?"
Mr. ******, I would like them to WORK , period. They are always off and shirking their responsibilities. Their motto seems to be "constituents be damned!"
Mr. ******, I would like them to WORK , period. They are always off and shirking their responsibilities. Their motto seems to be "constituents be damned!"
Last edited by a moderator:
G
Give-Me-A-Break!
Guest
Home Ownership for low income buyers has been the baby of politicians for years!
Home ownership for low income buyers garners votes come election time. President Bush himself ran for office with the promise of the Home ownership society.
Here are remarks he made in a radio address in Jan 2002:
President Focuses on Home-Ownership in Radio Address
Radio Address by the President to the Nation
Policy in Focus: Home-Ownership
THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. Owning a home lies at the heart of the American dream. A home is a foundation for families and a source of stability for communities. It serves as the foundation of many Americans' financial security. Yet today, while nearly three-quarters of all white Americans own their homes, less than half of all African Americans and Hispanic Americans are homeowners. We must begin to close this homeownership gap by dismantling the barriers that prevent minorities from owning a piece of the American dream.
The single greatest hurdle to first time homeownership is a high down payment requirement that can put a home out of reach. So my administration is proposing the American Dream Down Payment Fund. When a low-income family is qualified to buy a home, but comes up short on the down payment, the American Dream Down Payment Fund will help provide the needed funds. We estimate that this fund will open the door to homeownership for 40,000 low-income families annually.
A second obstacle to minority homeownership is a lack of affordable housing. To encourage the production of single-family homes for sale in neighborhoods where affordable housing is scarce, my administration is proposing a single-family affordable housing credit. Over the next five years, this will provide developers nearly $2.4 billion in tax credits for building affordable single-family housing in distressed areas. These credits will make 200,000 new homes available over its first five years to low-income purchasers.
A third major obstacle to minority homeownership is the complexity and difficulty of the purchasing process. So we're stepping up our efforts to better educate first-time home buyers. Consumers need to know their rights and responsibilities as home buyers. Education is the best protection for families against abusive and unscrupulous lenders. Financial education and housing counseling can help protect home buyers against abuses, greatly improve the loan terms they are offered, and help families get through tough times with their homes intact.
Through these important initiatives, we can help thousands of American families live the kinds of lives they had once only dreamed about. But government action isn't enough. We need to energize and engage the private sector, as well. That is why I have challenged the real estate industry leaders to join with the government, with non-profit organizations, and with private sector financial institutions in a major nationwide effort to increase minority homeownership.
My approach to broadening homeownership focuses on empowering people to help themselves, and to help one another. These important initiatives will accomplish their purpose because Americans, working together and taking responsibility for one another, will make this great country even greater.
The strength of America lies in the honor and the character and goodwill of its people. When we tap into that strength, we discover there is no problem that cannot be solved in this wonderful land of liberty.
Thank you for listening.
Home ownership for low income buyers garners votes come election time. President Bush himself ran for office with the promise of the Home ownership society.
Here are remarks he made in a radio address in Jan 2002:
President Focuses on Home-Ownership in Radio Address
Radio Address by the President to the Nation
Policy in Focus: Home-Ownership
THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. Owning a home lies at the heart of the American dream. A home is a foundation for families and a source of stability for communities. It serves as the foundation of many Americans' financial security. Yet today, while nearly three-quarters of all white Americans own their homes, less than half of all African Americans and Hispanic Americans are homeowners. We must begin to close this homeownership gap by dismantling the barriers that prevent minorities from owning a piece of the American dream.
The single greatest hurdle to first time homeownership is a high down payment requirement that can put a home out of reach. So my administration is proposing the American Dream Down Payment Fund. When a low-income family is qualified to buy a home, but comes up short on the down payment, the American Dream Down Payment Fund will help provide the needed funds. We estimate that this fund will open the door to homeownership for 40,000 low-income families annually.
A second obstacle to minority homeownership is a lack of affordable housing. To encourage the production of single-family homes for sale in neighborhoods where affordable housing is scarce, my administration is proposing a single-family affordable housing credit. Over the next five years, this will provide developers nearly $2.4 billion in tax credits for building affordable single-family housing in distressed areas. These credits will make 200,000 new homes available over its first five years to low-income purchasers.
A third major obstacle to minority homeownership is the complexity and difficulty of the purchasing process. So we're stepping up our efforts to better educate first-time home buyers. Consumers need to know their rights and responsibilities as home buyers. Education is the best protection for families against abusive and unscrupulous lenders. Financial education and housing counseling can help protect home buyers against abuses, greatly improve the loan terms they are offered, and help families get through tough times with their homes intact.
Through these important initiatives, we can help thousands of American families live the kinds of lives they had once only dreamed about. But government action isn't enough. We need to energize and engage the private sector, as well. That is why I have challenged the real estate industry leaders to join with the government, with non-profit organizations, and with private sector financial institutions in a major nationwide effort to increase minority homeownership.
My approach to broadening homeownership focuses on empowering people to help themselves, and to help one another. These important initiatives will accomplish their purpose because Americans, working together and taking responsibility for one another, will make this great country even greater.
The strength of America lies in the honor and the character and goodwill of its people. When we tap into that strength, we discover there is no problem that cannot be solved in this wonderful land of liberty.
Thank you for listening.
G
Give-Me-A-Break!
Guest
This from the WHITE HOUSE INFORMATION PAGE!
Make note of 4 things:
1) Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market; (this means fannie mae)
2) Launching twenty-five different local initiatives across the nation, geared toward eliminating the specific homeownership barriers faced by minority families in those communities;
3) Aggressively developing new mortgage products so that conventional market alternatives are available to combat the predatory loan products that are disproportionately targeted to minorities; (sub prime loan creations)
4)Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants; (What? arent these the very people currently foreclosing on 2.3 million homes?
From the White House:
Fact Sheet: President Bush Calls for Expanding Opportunities to Homeownership
En Español
Today's Presidential Action
Today, President Bush announced a new goal to help increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million before the end of the decade. The President's aggressive housing agenda will help dismantle the barriers to homeownership by providing down payment assistance, increasing the supply of affordable homes, increasing support for self-help homeownership programs, and simplifying the home buying process & increasing education. The President also issued "America's Homeownership Challenge" to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to join in his effort to increase the number of minority homeowners by taking concrete steps to tear down the barriers to homeownership that face minority families.
Background on the President's Homeownership Agenda
Buying a home is the biggest single investment most people will make in their lives. Homeownership is a cornerstone of America's healthy, vibrant communities, and benefits individual families by helping them build stability and long term financial security. But sadly, homeownership is out of reach for many Americans -- especially for minority families. For millions of these families, homeownership is a distant, unreachable dream.
President Bush has a comprehensive agenda to help increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million before the end of the decade.
While the overall homeownership rate has reached an all time high of nearly 68 percent, the statistics show a clear and persistent homeownership gap:
Despite increases in minority homeownership during the decade of the 1990s, large persistent gaps between non-Hispanic whites and minorities remain and have narrowed only slightly;
According to HUD, in 1994 the minority homeownership rate was 26.8 percent below the rate for white households;
The African-American homeownership rate was 27.5 percentage points below the white rate, and the Hispanic rate was 28.8 percentage points below the white rate;
The second quarter Census data for 2002 shows that non-Hispanic whites have a 74.3% homeownership rate, while African-Americans have a 48% rate and Hispanics a 47.6% rate; and
Asian-Americans and other races have a 53.7% homeownership rate.
A new report from the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) -- which analyzed the most recent homeownership data from the U.S. Census Bureau -- highlights the many barriers that prevent minority families from owning their own home. The barriers include:
A lack of inventory of affordable single-family housing available for sale in many areas where a majority of residents are minority families;
A need for down payment assistance, which affects minority families to a greater extent than non-Hispanic whites because they have less accumulated wealth that can be used to help children with down payments;
A lack of access to affordable mortgage credit;
A lack of understanding of the homebuying process;
Weak credit histories, often arising from a poor understanding of financial matters and where financial counseling is required;
A lack of information about available homeownership programs in the community; and
Language difficulties or cultural differences.
It doesn't have to be this way. The President's agenda will help tear down the barriers to homeownership that stand in the way of our nation's African-American, Hispanic and other minority families by:
Providing Downpayment Assistance. The single biggest barrier to homeownership is accumulating funds for a down payment. The President has proposed $200 million annually for the American Dream Downpayment Fund to help roughly 40,000 families a year with their down payment and closing costs.
Increasing the Supply of Affordable Homes. The President wants to dramatically increase the supply of homes available to low and moderate income families. The President has proposed the Single-Family Affordable Housing Tax Credit, which will provide approximately $2.4 billion to encourage the production of 200,000 affordable homes for sale to low and moderate income families.
Increasing Support for Self-Help Homeownership Programs. The President's budget triples funding for organizations, such as Habitat for Humanity, that help families help themselves become homeowners through sweat equity and volunteerism in their communities.
Simplifying the Home Buying Process & Increasing Education. When buying a home today a buyer faces a confusing and complicated process. The President and HUD want to empower homebuyers by simplifying the home buying process so consumers can better understand and benefit from cost savings. The President also wants to expand financial education efforts so that families can understand what they need to do to become homeowners.
The President also believes that government alone can't close America's homeownership gap. It is critical that our government challenge the private sector to take concrete steps to tear down the barriers to homeownership that face minority families. The President is issuing "America's Homeownership Challenge" to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to join in his effort to increase the number of minority homeowners by 5.5 million families by the end of the decade. Many organizations have already responded to the President's challenge by committing to:
Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market;
Launching twenty-five different local initiatives across the nation, geared toward eliminating the specific homeownership barriers faced by minority families in those communities;
Raising $750 million in below-market-rate investments by 2007, which will work in collaboration with local homeownership initiatives and be targeted to heavily minority program areas;
Pursuing strategic partnerships in 20 top housing markets between homebuilders, lenders, local officials, and community leaders to develop approaches that address the local challenges to building homes for minority families living in urban centers;
Establishing faith-based housing partnerships between the participants and at least 100 churches, mosques, synagogues, and other faith-based institutions;
Aggressively developing new mortgage products so that conventional market alternatives are available to combat the predatory loan products that are disproportionately targeted to minorities;
Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants;
Dramatically expanding financial education efforts for minorities, providing financial counseling to at least 380,000 minority families, and taking measures at the local level to reduce predatory lending; and
Establishing multilingual, consumer-oriented internet Web sites designed to help minorities overcome barriers to homeownership, including creation of a central data bank of affordable housing programs made available to real estate agents when working with clients.
For more information on the President's initiatives please visit www.whitehouse.gov.
Make note of 4 things:
1) Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market; (this means fannie mae)
2) Launching twenty-five different local initiatives across the nation, geared toward eliminating the specific homeownership barriers faced by minority families in those communities;
3) Aggressively developing new mortgage products so that conventional market alternatives are available to combat the predatory loan products that are disproportionately targeted to minorities; (sub prime loan creations)
4)Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants; (What? arent these the very people currently foreclosing on 2.3 million homes?
From the White House:
Fact Sheet: President Bush Calls for Expanding Opportunities to Homeownership
En Español
Today's Presidential Action
Today, President Bush announced a new goal to help increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million before the end of the decade. The President's aggressive housing agenda will help dismantle the barriers to homeownership by providing down payment assistance, increasing the supply of affordable homes, increasing support for self-help homeownership programs, and simplifying the home buying process & increasing education. The President also issued "America's Homeownership Challenge" to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to join in his effort to increase the number of minority homeowners by taking concrete steps to tear down the barriers to homeownership that face minority families.
Background on the President's Homeownership Agenda
Buying a home is the biggest single investment most people will make in their lives. Homeownership is a cornerstone of America's healthy, vibrant communities, and benefits individual families by helping them build stability and long term financial security. But sadly, homeownership is out of reach for many Americans -- especially for minority families. For millions of these families, homeownership is a distant, unreachable dream.
President Bush has a comprehensive agenda to help increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million before the end of the decade.
While the overall homeownership rate has reached an all time high of nearly 68 percent, the statistics show a clear and persistent homeownership gap:
Despite increases in minority homeownership during the decade of the 1990s, large persistent gaps between non-Hispanic whites and minorities remain and have narrowed only slightly;
According to HUD, in 1994 the minority homeownership rate was 26.8 percent below the rate for white households;
The African-American homeownership rate was 27.5 percentage points below the white rate, and the Hispanic rate was 28.8 percentage points below the white rate;
The second quarter Census data for 2002 shows that non-Hispanic whites have a 74.3% homeownership rate, while African-Americans have a 48% rate and Hispanics a 47.6% rate; and
Asian-Americans and other races have a 53.7% homeownership rate.
A new report from the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) -- which analyzed the most recent homeownership data from the U.S. Census Bureau -- highlights the many barriers that prevent minority families from owning their own home. The barriers include:
A lack of inventory of affordable single-family housing available for sale in many areas where a majority of residents are minority families;
A need for down payment assistance, which affects minority families to a greater extent than non-Hispanic whites because they have less accumulated wealth that can be used to help children with down payments;
A lack of access to affordable mortgage credit;
A lack of understanding of the homebuying process;
Weak credit histories, often arising from a poor understanding of financial matters and where financial counseling is required;
A lack of information about available homeownership programs in the community; and
Language difficulties or cultural differences.
It doesn't have to be this way. The President's agenda will help tear down the barriers to homeownership that stand in the way of our nation's African-American, Hispanic and other minority families by:
Providing Downpayment Assistance. The single biggest barrier to homeownership is accumulating funds for a down payment. The President has proposed $200 million annually for the American Dream Downpayment Fund to help roughly 40,000 families a year with their down payment and closing costs.
Increasing the Supply of Affordable Homes. The President wants to dramatically increase the supply of homes available to low and moderate income families. The President has proposed the Single-Family Affordable Housing Tax Credit, which will provide approximately $2.4 billion to encourage the production of 200,000 affordable homes for sale to low and moderate income families.
Increasing Support for Self-Help Homeownership Programs. The President's budget triples funding for organizations, such as Habitat for Humanity, that help families help themselves become homeowners through sweat equity and volunteerism in their communities.
Simplifying the Home Buying Process & Increasing Education. When buying a home today a buyer faces a confusing and complicated process. The President and HUD want to empower homebuyers by simplifying the home buying process so consumers can better understand and benefit from cost savings. The President also wants to expand financial education efforts so that families can understand what they need to do to become homeowners.
The President also believes that government alone can't close America's homeownership gap. It is critical that our government challenge the private sector to take concrete steps to tear down the barriers to homeownership that face minority families. The President is issuing "America's Homeownership Challenge" to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to join in his effort to increase the number of minority homeowners by 5.5 million families by the end of the decade. Many organizations have already responded to the President's challenge by committing to:
Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market;
Launching twenty-five different local initiatives across the nation, geared toward eliminating the specific homeownership barriers faced by minority families in those communities;
Raising $750 million in below-market-rate investments by 2007, which will work in collaboration with local homeownership initiatives and be targeted to heavily minority program areas;
Pursuing strategic partnerships in 20 top housing markets between homebuilders, lenders, local officials, and community leaders to develop approaches that address the local challenges to building homes for minority families living in urban centers;
Establishing faith-based housing partnerships between the participants and at least 100 churches, mosques, synagogues, and other faith-based institutions;
Aggressively developing new mortgage products so that conventional market alternatives are available to combat the predatory loan products that are disproportionately targeted to minorities;
Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants;
Dramatically expanding financial education efforts for minorities, providing financial counseling to at least 380,000 minority families, and taking measures at the local level to reduce predatory lending; and
Establishing multilingual, consumer-oriented internet Web sites designed to help minorities overcome barriers to homeownership, including creation of a central data bank of affordable housing programs made available to real estate agents when working with clients.
For more information on the President's initiatives please visit www.whitehouse.gov.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
To Moreluck's point about Congress staying and working. I disagree. The more gov't works the more mess we get ourselves into. Both AV's post from Youtube and Anon's post of the President's remarks IMO prove the case in point. Now IMHO both AV and Anon seem to be pointing more the blame at one side than the other (it's what we do 
) but the fact is both sides are to blame in all of this. But to AV's video post which let me say, Awesome find there AV! But to the video, so until gov't passed legislation there was so to speak, no market. Gov't via legislation in affect creates a market and the so-called private sector moves to begin to fill it, Bear Sternes in this case seeming to be the first followed later by others.
So, who really caused this bubble to begin with, the free market? or gov't intervention into the market? Who actually put the ball in play to begin with? Seems to me who needs regulatiing is the gov't itself and since we've not managed to do that at all. the next best means to regulate is for them to stay home. I say let Congress stay home until at least 9 more days from now after the Day of Atonement and then by then we can find another religious Holiday (Holy Day) to put them out of work on. I figure if we can squeeze this thing out till Thanksgiving, we can manipulate the western civilization holidays well into the next year and at least give us another 3 months of non-intervention in the market place which lets the markets equalize a bit allowing the bad apples to hit the ground and rot.
Audit the Fed!
) but the fact is both sides are to blame in all of this. But to AV's video post which let me say, Awesome find there AV! But to the video, so until gov't passed legislation there was so to speak, no market. Gov't via legislation in affect creates a market and the so-called private sector moves to begin to fill it, Bear Sternes in this case seeming to be the first followed later by others.So, who really caused this bubble to begin with, the free market? or gov't intervention into the market? Who actually put the ball in play to begin with? Seems to me who needs regulatiing is the gov't itself and since we've not managed to do that at all. the next best means to regulate is for them to stay home. I say let Congress stay home until at least 9 more days from now after the Day of Atonement and then by then we can find another religious Holiday (Holy Day) to put them out of work on. I figure if we can squeeze this thing out till Thanksgiving, we can manipulate the western civilization holidays well into the next year and at least give us another 3 months of non-intervention in the market place which lets the markets equalize a bit allowing the bad apples to hit the ground and rot.
Audit the Fed!
G
Give-Me-A-Break!
Guest
Lets be clear. Rather than finger pointing, lets come to a serious reality check.
GREED is to blame in this regard. From Wall street to the consumer. They took an honest mandate by a president (home ownership) and took advantage of serious flaws in the system in order to make big bucks.
From the Realtor to the Fannie and Freddies, at every level, serious gouging and exploitation occured and many made tons of money.
The real problem is this, in the begining, affordable homes were to be built and decent loans were to be made. With respect to the builders, they got greedy, they started building homes too large and too expensive and the realtors and mortgage writers had to become more creative in order to sell the homes.
At some point, all serious qualifications went out the window and without safeguards, millions of bad loans were written by the mortgage brokers.
Those mortages were then sold and backed by the fannie and freddies under the assumption that the equity in the homes were the security.
But, no one took in consideration "saturation" and once the number of homes began to stop selling, the values began to drop, as they began to drop so did the homes values.
Now, fannie and freddie as well as many banks are holding homes that are not worth the paper they are written on.
The blame should go from the consumer to the White House.
This being said, we are all to blame.
GREED is to blame in this regard. From Wall street to the consumer. They took an honest mandate by a president (home ownership) and took advantage of serious flaws in the system in order to make big bucks.
From the Realtor to the Fannie and Freddies, at every level, serious gouging and exploitation occured and many made tons of money.
The real problem is this, in the begining, affordable homes were to be built and decent loans were to be made. With respect to the builders, they got greedy, they started building homes too large and too expensive and the realtors and mortgage writers had to become more creative in order to sell the homes.
At some point, all serious qualifications went out the window and without safeguards, millions of bad loans were written by the mortgage brokers.
Those mortages were then sold and backed by the fannie and freddies under the assumption that the equity in the homes were the security.
But, no one took in consideration "saturation" and once the number of homes began to stop selling, the values began to drop, as they began to drop so did the homes values.
Now, fannie and freddie as well as many banks are holding homes that are not worth the paper they are written on.
The blame should go from the consumer to the White House.
This being said, we are all to blame.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I know you had already brought up most of the things in the video but I was surprised to find out Pres. Bush in the early years of his presidency had pushed legislation to farther regulate the mortgage industry. I know I should have already know since he is a big government republican but I had missed it. The problem remains that the voters demand easier access to the mortgage markets. Until this changes they will continue to elect politicians who cater to this desire. These things always start out with the best of intentions but somehow we all, in the end, wind up footing the bill.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
From a technical POV, we can delve into advanced economics, politcal policy, etc. etc. but when you wash it all out, it comes down to exactly what you said above.
Very good point!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Full Text of President Bush's 2002 Speech:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html
Now, here's the President advocating home ownership in a way many today point towards at being at the core of the problem if we link back to CRA. Much to some's displeasure "Anon" has done a good job IMO of pointing out Bush's "ownership society" agenda and the speech above seems IMO to further enforce that POV. But I'm not here to carry democrat water (although I'm sure I'll be accused but so be it) because personally the more you want to shovel dirt on top of them (democrats)and bury them, I say hand me a shovel but I'm not so fast as to pull republican dirt to be thrown on the democrats. Here's what I mean.
This YouTube piece seems to be making quiet the rounds (I know posted here earlier) and it does lead one to come to the conclusion that republicans were on top of this and got roadblocked. I repost just for effect to make a later point.
Does seem pretty clear at first but let's consider some other facts in all of this. Over the last several days with the bailout, we've heard more and more people point out that the democrats have the votes just among themselves that they don't need the republicans to pass the bailout plan which Bush has already admitted he'll sign so no need for it to be veto proof. Yes this is true but reality the other day proved likewise. LOL!
I think today in the Senate we'll see the republicans cave and vote for the bailout, at least that's my expectation. One of my Senators is Saxby Chambliss who's carried Bush water from day one and the other Johnny Isakson is a major Real Estate for metro Atlanta so it's not hard to figure who that limp wrist will back in all of this. With Bush, Chambliss and Isakson in the same motel room with Pelosi paid for by the taxpayer, seems to me an orgy is about to take place but none of them will get screwed, it'll be you and me and the 4 of them will be on top and tust me, no orifice is safe either.
The point is, if the democrat numbers are true today to carry a vote over the top as so many republicans love to proclaim (and again that point is true), then would it not also be true that if the republicans, the President, John McCain all saw this train wreck back in 2004/2005 then why did they not propose legislation then when they controlled both houses of Congress, the White House and 7 of 9 Supreme Court Justices were republican nominees? Talk about home field advantge but did we see any changes, any proposed legislation, did any one step into the bully pulpit and strongly advocate and warn the American public? Did anyone have the actual guts to write up legislation and then step into the well and on the record propose doing something about this mess and even had the guts to go on record and forecast that if something did not change, that exactly what we are seeing would happen?
As a side note, I actually heard Rush Limbaugh yesterday for a few minutes on all this and as usual he was making his points that the democrats caused all of this and the republicans were in effect, spotless. No Rush, you might argue that it was democrats who entered the bank itself and robbed it at gunpoint but the republican party sat outside the bank and keep the getaway car running and even were the lookouts for the cops as they always knew what was going on inside the bank but never had the guts to make that bold step to stop it all except in the case of one lone republican that they call Dr. No!
In July 2002, over 6 years before this whole mess blew up and 2 years at least before the other Congressman in 2004' in the video caught on and McCain in 2005'
I give you HR 3071 from the 108th Congress, July 16, 2002'
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?tab=summary&bill=h108-3071
Full Text of the Bill
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h108-3071
And who was this lone Congressman who foresaw the chain of events ot come and tried to shield the taxpayer?
I give you Dr. No direct from the well addressing the congress and on the record, July 16th, 2002'!
https://web.archive.org/web/2002101...use.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr071602.htm
Notice the very last paragraph and this was said in July of 2002', over 6 years ago.
I think it's safe to say that looking where we are today that Dr. No got no support from his own party so to those who want to hold the republicans up as some kind of savior, let me just say,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html
Now, here's the President advocating home ownership in a way many today point towards at being at the core of the problem if we link back to CRA. Much to some's displeasure "Anon" has done a good job IMO of pointing out Bush's "ownership society" agenda and the speech above seems IMO to further enforce that POV. But I'm not here to carry democrat water (although I'm sure I'll be accused but so be it) because personally the more you want to shovel dirt on top of them (democrats)and bury them, I say hand me a shovel but I'm not so fast as to pull republican dirt to be thrown on the democrats. Here's what I mean.
This YouTube piece seems to be making quiet the rounds (I know posted here earlier) and it does lead one to come to the conclusion that republicans were on top of this and got roadblocked. I repost just for effect to make a later point.
Does seem pretty clear at first but let's consider some other facts in all of this. Over the last several days with the bailout, we've heard more and more people point out that the democrats have the votes just among themselves that they don't need the republicans to pass the bailout plan which Bush has already admitted he'll sign so no need for it to be veto proof. Yes this is true but reality the other day proved likewise. LOL!
I think today in the Senate we'll see the republicans cave and vote for the bailout, at least that's my expectation. One of my Senators is Saxby Chambliss who's carried Bush water from day one and the other Johnny Isakson is a major Real Estate for metro Atlanta so it's not hard to figure who that limp wrist will back in all of this. With Bush, Chambliss and Isakson in the same motel room with Pelosi paid for by the taxpayer, seems to me an orgy is about to take place but none of them will get screwed, it'll be you and me and the 4 of them will be on top and tust me, no orifice is safe either.
The point is, if the democrat numbers are true today to carry a vote over the top as so many republicans love to proclaim (and again that point is true), then would it not also be true that if the republicans, the President, John McCain all saw this train wreck back in 2004/2005 then why did they not propose legislation then when they controlled both houses of Congress, the White House and 7 of 9 Supreme Court Justices were republican nominees? Talk about home field advantge but did we see any changes, any proposed legislation, did any one step into the bully pulpit and strongly advocate and warn the American public? Did anyone have the actual guts to write up legislation and then step into the well and on the record propose doing something about this mess and even had the guts to go on record and forecast that if something did not change, that exactly what we are seeing would happen?
As a side note, I actually heard Rush Limbaugh yesterday for a few minutes on all this and as usual he was making his points that the democrats caused all of this and the republicans were in effect, spotless. No Rush, you might argue that it was democrats who entered the bank itself and robbed it at gunpoint but the republican party sat outside the bank and keep the getaway car running and even were the lookouts for the cops as they always knew what was going on inside the bank but never had the guts to make that bold step to stop it all except in the case of one lone republican that they call Dr. No!
In July 2002, over 6 years before this whole mess blew up and 2 years at least before the other Congressman in 2004' in the video caught on and McCain in 2005'
I give you HR 3071 from the 108th Congress, July 16, 2002'
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?tab=summary&bill=h108-3071
Full Text of the Bill
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h108-3071
And who was this lone Congressman who foresaw the chain of events ot come and tried to shield the taxpayer?
I give you Dr. No direct from the well addressing the congress and on the record, July 16th, 2002'!
https://web.archive.org/web/2002101...use.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr071602.htm
Notice the very last paragraph and this was said in July of 2002', over 6 years ago.
I think it's safe to say that looking where we are today that Dr. No got no support from his own party so to those who want to hold the republicans up as some kind of savior, let me just say,
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Looking Back, Sept. 1999' NY Times
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Why the 'pork' in this rescue bill??
C'mon, wooden arrows for Oregon gets 6 million ??? These so called "representatives of the people" make me sick. They're all pigs when it comes to getting money for the pet projects in their states. OINK on congress !!
The great and wise WKMAC once said:
Laughing with ya Moreluck not at ya!Seriously, this proves once more what these people are really all about. They are bought and sold daily by the highest bidder and this legislation is one more example. Early in this thread of another on the same subject I posted the House rollcall sheet direct from the Clerk of the House's website and here's what these thieves did.
When a bill is introduced, it must then proceed through the committee oversite process which the allows various looks at the vet the legislation or at least that's the game they play. I often wonder myself.
Anyway, to avoid all of this, they took the bailout package and latched onto a piece of legislation that had to do with uniformed officers, volunteer firefighters and peace corp. workers since this legislation had already gone through the committee process. Now like other pieces of legislation, all kinds of porkbarrel add-ons are included in order to get this Congressman and that Congressman to vote for it. How do you think all those democrats that all the time told God and everyone they opposed the war in Iraq but then come vote time, they took the money shot to the face becuase the whore was well paid for it. Why do you think non-military gov't grew at such an alarming rate during the Bush years? Why do you think Bush gave Kennedy the biggest poltical blowjob with the massive failure known as "No Child Left Behind!" Gov't has become a wild west show that is auctioned to the highest bidder.
Now maybe we can understand why Ron Paul got the well known, infamous and deserved nickname of Dr. No in Washington. Everyone in DC calls Ron by that name. Marcy Kaptur D-Ohio is now being lauded as a female Dr. No because of this bailout and more on that later. And God Bless her too.
This process has nothing to do with what is good for the country as a whole but about what is good for specific Congressman to get monies back to their district to make them look good going into election day. I was out this morning running errands in the car and listening to Glenn Beck going over some of the junk in this thing and it just made me sick. What makes it worse to now read the so-called fiscal conservatives on the republican side now crowing in support of this massive porker of legislation. But then on the local news as they covered this thing and the republican rollovers there was a bright spot. Marcy Kaptur D-Ohio who I saw on C-Span ripping this bailout for all it's worth is still even after all said and done is still ripping the bailout and on some good principled economic grounds too. It's to be seen if Rep. Kaptur can be bought off too and I'm hoping and praying she won't but I do know one this as it stands right now. If I lived in her district, I'd be voting democrat just so I could vote for her. She may be crap in a lot of other places but in my view she's 80% crap to 100% for the rest of the bunch out there!
My senators voted for it just as I called it eariler and Sen. Chambliss is up for election in a few weeks. Mark it down folks, if there's not a good 3rd party alternative, Democrat Jim Martin who I know is a real winnie across the board will get my vote. At least Martin is an honest winnie and is up front about carrying big gov't water. Chambliss however has told us the fiscal conservative line over and over while carrying the big gov't expansion water of Bush wherever it needs to go.
I mean why vote in a republican if you will who votes like a big gov't democrat when I can elect the real thing!
It's way pass time to send this psuedo-limited gov't/fiscal responsible republicans to the woodshed to send a real message and then if it's salvagible (I don't think it is) come back in the 2010' midterms with a true conservative/fiscally responsible message aimed at cutting gov't way down in size, balancing the budget and returning to true fiscal economic principles.
I've been saying and saying and saying here that these cats are selling all of us down the river and here is the proof right in front of your noses. Have the courage to just say no to these 2 parties. If your Congressman voted for this crap and even more so if it took this whole opportunity to lighten your wallet to fatten up someone else, democrat or republican, turn the 8astard or 8itch out and get someone else in there. They do the same turn there arse out next election. Stop living in fear and start living on principle!
JMO.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Funny how the bailout package went from 3 pages at an estimate cost of $700 bil (I know that's an estimate that will probably be higher) to now a bill over 471 pages and what's the estimated cost of that?
The worse part about this whole thing is the wooden arrow fiasco. Now on principle in the perfect, there would never have been a $.39 excise tax on wooden arrows to begin with. However since we live in some morphed Keynesian, fabian socialist, merchantilist, etc. economic world that people want to preserve instead of letting it fall to the floor so we can go back to what made us great to being with, that said, the wooden arrows just prove IMO what our gov't has become. Legislation to be bought and sold by the highest bidder. The only thing missing from the Congressional floor IMO is Monty Hall and the "Let's Make A Deal" crowd. Why not let the Congress dress up in stupid outfits and play games to find out if the better deal is behind curtains 1, 2 or 3 or should we just take the money in the lobbyist---uh I mean, in Monty's pocket.
Sorry for that slip of the tongue!
But now to top it all off I give you Michael Steele, spokesman for Repub. leader John Boehner who took a page from Bob Barker to make sure "The Price Is Right!"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aKd0vyGN8L2k&refer=us
Boehner was never against the deal to begin with, he just wanted more of the take from heisting the taxpayer. I guess now we can refer to Pelosi, Reid and Boehner and Mugsy, Bugsy and Machine Gun John. Might as well give them gangster names to fit the real job description.
Karl Marx, God Bless his dead soul, would be proud our Congress took a page from his book and you guys wonder why Hugo Chavez is dancing in the street right now!
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
BTW: Don't make fun of Maxine Waters anymore over her slip of the tongue threat to nationalize oil because we are letting Congress and Georgre Bush do the same thing with banking and credit. I'm sure Maxine''s staff in consultation with Hugo Chavez is looking at legal precedence to use the banking nationalization as a floor to make the move on oil as we speak.
Audit the FED!
The worse part about this whole thing is the wooden arrow fiasco. Now on principle in the perfect, there would never have been a $.39 excise tax on wooden arrows to begin with. However since we live in some morphed Keynesian, fabian socialist, merchantilist, etc. economic world that people want to preserve instead of letting it fall to the floor so we can go back to what made us great to being with, that said, the wooden arrows just prove IMO what our gov't has become. Legislation to be bought and sold by the highest bidder. The only thing missing from the Congressional floor IMO is Monty Hall and the "Let's Make A Deal" crowd. Why not let the Congress dress up in stupid outfits and play games to find out if the better deal is behind curtains 1, 2 or 3 or should we just take the money in the lobbyist---uh I mean, in Monty's pocket.
Sorry for that slip of the tongue!But now to top it all off I give you Michael Steele, spokesman for Repub. leader John Boehner who took a page from Bob Barker to make sure "The Price Is Right!"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aKd0vyGN8L2k&refer=us
Boehner was never against the deal to begin with, he just wanted more of the take from heisting the taxpayer. I guess now we can refer to Pelosi, Reid and Boehner and Mugsy, Bugsy and Machine Gun John. Might as well give them gangster names to fit the real job description.
Karl Marx, God Bless his dead soul, would be proud our Congress took a page from his book and you guys wonder why Hugo Chavez is dancing in the street right now!
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
BTW: Don't make fun of Maxine Waters anymore over her slip of the tongue threat to nationalize oil because we are letting Congress and Georgre Bush do the same thing with banking and credit. I'm sure Maxine''s staff in consultation with Hugo Chavez is looking at legal precedence to use the banking nationalization as a floor to make the move on oil as we speak.
Audit the FED!
The simple reality check for us all in this matter, is what caused this mess?
There is plenty of blame to go around begining with the President. The thing that really is to blame is this goverments willingness to allow the oil companies, the oil refiners and the oil speculators to run OIL to record levels and think that it would not have an effect on the economy as a whole.
Taking the record profits all the way to the end of the second quarter was the nail in the coffin for us all.
Those of you on this board who Ive read your support for the oil business and capitalism in these topics are also to be blamed. You supported a scam on the country that will set us back for years and cost us millions of jobs. The Bush administration believed the price of oil would merely be accepted into every americans life and no harm would come to the country. There plan to run oil up till the end of the second quarter and then gradually reduce it prior to the election turned out to be a death blow on wall street.
A simple miscalculation? I think not. More like a complex screw up.
Bringing down oil prior to this election is not having an effect on the economy. People are still losing confidence in the economy and cutting back spending. If the Bush administration had taken steps to reduce the price of oil at the begining of 07, this economy would still be kicking today.
If the price of a gallon of gas was $1.25 today, americans would still stay home and save there money. You couldnt say that last year.
The real lesson for us all is to never again place OIL MEN in the White House for ANY reason.
There is plenty of blame to go around begining with the President. The thing that really is to blame is this goverments willingness to allow the oil companies, the oil refiners and the oil speculators to run OIL to record levels and think that it would not have an effect on the economy as a whole.
Taking the record profits all the way to the end of the second quarter was the nail in the coffin for us all.
Those of you on this board who Ive read your support for the oil business and capitalism in these topics are also to be blamed. You supported a scam on the country that will set us back for years and cost us millions of jobs. The Bush administration believed the price of oil would merely be accepted into every americans life and no harm would come to the country. There plan to run oil up till the end of the second quarter and then gradually reduce it prior to the election turned out to be a death blow on wall street.
A simple miscalculation? I think not. More like a complex screw up.
Bringing down oil prior to this election is not having an effect on the economy. People are still losing confidence in the economy and cutting back spending. If the Bush administration had taken steps to reduce the price of oil at the begining of 07, this economy would still be kicking today.
If the price of a gallon of gas was $1.25 today, americans would still stay home and save there money. You couldnt say that last year.
The real lesson for us all is to never again place OIL MEN in the White House for ANY reason.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Seems the old adage of "the devil is in the details" is coming true from those 471 pages of quicky legislation. Better know your tax preparer before you accept those deductions he's suggesting.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10057618-38.html?tag=nl.e433
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10057618-38.html?tag=nl.e433
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