Why???
- Thread starter Bubblehead
- Start date
kingOFchester
Well-Known Member
All about due diligence.
There is some truth to what the OP has stated. During the negotiating process a lot of members, myself included, wanted to know every step being made. I understand that it is probably not in our best interest to be told everything along the way.
That said, I also understand that most people do not read contracts that they enter into. I understand that a good number of my brothers will only look at the dollar amount of the contract. This contract is so very important being that there is a huge change in our insurance. I am worried that we will not have the adequate amount of time to understand what out insurance will be. If we aren't given EVERY detail of the contract and health insurance, well ahead of the vote, we then loose the opportunity to talk with our brothers who aren't following the negotiations and fully understand what we are signing into.
To me, its about having enough time to fully understand what we are agreeing to. 3 years ago I bought a new car. Had a deal worked out with a local dealer. They pushed and pushed for me to sign. We had agreed on price, trade in and interest rate. I refused to sign and took the numbers home. A little time and calculations and I found that I was actually paying more then the agreed upon price. Had I taken the deal and payments at the time I was in the show room, I would of ended up paying close to 2k more then what was negotiated. Its all in the details and having enough time to do one's due diligence.
There is some truth to what the OP has stated. During the negotiating process a lot of members, myself included, wanted to know every step being made. I understand that it is probably not in our best interest to be told everything along the way.
That said, I also understand that most people do not read contracts that they enter into. I understand that a good number of my brothers will only look at the dollar amount of the contract. This contract is so very important being that there is a huge change in our insurance. I am worried that we will not have the adequate amount of time to understand what out insurance will be. If we aren't given EVERY detail of the contract and health insurance, well ahead of the vote, we then loose the opportunity to talk with our brothers who aren't following the negotiations and fully understand what we are signing into.
To me, its about having enough time to fully understand what we are agreeing to. 3 years ago I bought a new car. Had a deal worked out with a local dealer. They pushed and pushed for me to sign. We had agreed on price, trade in and interest rate. I refused to sign and took the numbers home. A little time and calculations and I found that I was actually paying more then the agreed upon price. Had I taken the deal and payments at the time I was in the show room, I would of ended up paying close to 2k more then what was negotiated. Its all in the details and having enough time to do one's due diligence.
pretender
Well-Known Member
I cannot recall the actual quote, but years ago I was basically told that in essence, we actually work for the union, and they provide our services to the company...
There's a difference between reality and entitlement. Reality is, the union has to separate what's in the National to what's in the Addendums and Riders. Entitlement doesn't even fit in with reality in this situation. Do you want correct information or guesses? There's a limit to what can be honestly given to you in a set amount of time. If we gave you what you think you're entitled too, you'd bitch at the union later when it was wrong. With the current tech and what the union has to offer for tech, May 7th is what we have. Learn the difference between entitled and reality. You'll be far less frustrated.
You pay union dues so that the union can negotiate on your behalf. You just said you want details even though you have heard they are not finalized. There are some supplements that are not even agreed to yet, so don't think a strike is out of the woods. As for your information, a tentative agreement is just that. The intent of language is agreed upon so far, not the written word. An example would be, hall and John McDevitt may agree that we will not have production standards. The written word comes to be:
1) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay shall be observed at times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employer’s interest.
Or
2) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay shall be observed at all times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employer’s interest.
One word changes the intent.
Your going to get to read your asses off around May 7th. Hold your horses. There are many changes to make. This is how the process has always worked. We just now have more smart phones in our time. There are many people to satisfy. Everyone has different concerns. hall has made many people's lives much better the past 16+ years. It's not Hoffa, it wasn't Carey. It's always been Hall. Wait a few more days.
Last edited:
UPS Preloader
Well-Known Member
Re: All about due diligence.
From what I understand, details are going to be released on May 7th. I'm sure you will have enough time to review all the details and if you don't it's very simple. Vote no. It will buy you more time.
From what I understand, details are going to be released on May 7th. I'm sure you will have enough time to review all the details and if you don't it's very simple. Vote no. It will buy you more time.
UPS WORKHORSE
Well-Known Member
Hey Bubble brains, not sure if you heard, but we have a TA. That means the national contract has been concluded. All that's left is some supplements. If the union releases the TA to the members UPS isn't going to be surprised by what's in it. They shook hall hand and know what's in it, so that means it can't and wont jeopardize the few supplement negotiations. Therefore, since it has been agreed to already, we are entitled to see what is in it.
That being said, I do realize it may take a week to release the TA, however we shouldn't be in dark about what is in the TA while we wait to see it in its entirety.
P.S. Resign as a shop steward. Obviously you don't care about the members or want a strong membership with information.
InsideUPS
Well-Known Member
One simple solution to all of this...
1) Give us until July 31st, 2013 to look over the details of the contact at which time we cast our vote....contingent on the contract and details being released to us on May 7th, 2013.
The primary reason that I have wanted details of the contract are the same as some others in this thread. We have concern that we will not be given enough time to READ, UNDERSTAND, and QUESTION any details we don't fully understand BEFORE our votes are due.
To complicate matters, the DETAILS of the PENSION language are outlined in a UPS brochure called the Summary Plan Document (SPD). The contract only provides an abbreviated version of the pension...without the details. It will take months after the signing of the contract before UPS publishes the SPD. I am now being asked by full-time union members who are close to retirement for the SPD. Unbelievably...most long time Union members in my building have no clue what is in that SPD.....
Bottom line... most Union members do NOT take the time to read. They rely on others to interpret and disseminate information. I enjoy the role of reading and disseminating information.....but....without having access....we are simply in the dark (Brownout).
OK, so we can't critique yet. I understand that we can't be privy to the whole process. But I think they could send an email to every member as soon as they have a TA outlining some pros and cons contained in it, perhaps adding that finer points can and will be changed in the final version.
How 'bout the other way around, BH? Was it appropriate for someone to start a thread thoroughly kissing hall butt on the day the TA was announced before anyone knew what was in it?
If the critique must wait, shouldn't the accolades wait as well?
Lol, I'm sure that's what union management wants you to believe, but I'm pretty sure I remember UPS hiring me...
The answer is SIMPLE. HOFFA/HALL and the rest of the executive officers in the Teamsters WORK FOR US. They are suppose to negotiate for US. They are suppose to represent the wishes of US. They have a obligation to communicate to US all the intimate details of negotiations because that's what WE pay them to do. They don't work for a corporation, they don't work for themselves, they work for US. WE PAY their salaries and bonuses. WE are their employer. Understand now?
InsideUPS
Well-Known Member
jaker....does not sound crazy at all to me. I believe you absolutely correct. UPS most likely gave some sort of ultimatum to Teamster negotiators of getting a tentative agreement (TA) NOW.....or they (UPS) would withdraw some of their offers regarding wages, benefits, etc.. hall and James Hoffa are well aware of our weaknesses as a Union..... I just wish they would share them with us.... so I could understand and back them more in their efforts. All I want is the TRUTH....NO DECEPTION....and to be treated like individuals who can make intelligent decisions based on the facts.
The lack of information from Teamster officials is currently dividing the UPS rank and file. Evidence of strong leadership is a UNITED rank and file. The inverse of that last statement is therefore also a logical conclusion.
Dracula
Package Car is cake compared to this...
I'm optimistically pessimistic...I'll make my decision when I see the black and white.
Bubblehead
My Senior Picture
I didn't take part in any of those victory threads and no they weren't appropriate.
I believe I also said that I was cautiously pessimistic.
As I said, I will have an opportunity next week to learn and read about the tentative agreement when my local officials return from Virginia and the 2 man team conference.
This is exactly how I recall it going down with every contract that I remember.
I plan to read and reread the literature and go to the meetings prepared to ask questions.
I will educate myself and the my co-workers who solicit my opinion.
But for now, I will sit tight and wait for the information to make its way to the front line where I reside.
Over, do really think that the IBT has the email address for every member? LOL!!!
Do you really think it is such a bad system to summon your elected local officials to a meeting to educate them so they can educate you?
Everybody needs to take a deep breath, wait, educate themselves and VOTE!!!
3 done 3 to go
In control of own destiny
Yes I do. Then management at every local and hub would know about the back door deals and who would be sold out. We the real teamsters would be face to face for our futures. Transparency is what it's called.
Bubblehead
My Senior Picture
Not sure how I ever represented a contrary viewpoint that would qualify me as a hypocrite, but OK.
I will try not waiver again in my opinion that we elect representatives to negotiate a contract and they shouldn't keep us, the front line bargaining unit abreast of every proposal and counter proposal that is lobbed across the table.
We don't need to preapprove their strategies and tactics.
Now that they have found common ground and shook hands, we should and will be made aware of all terms of the deal.
Failure to do so should result in a no vote.
In the end we decide if it is to be our contract.
Delivered
Well-Known Member
There is no need to summon our elected local officials anywhere. You can easily and (more cheaply) Skype, Facetime, Video conference calls, email to the locals, Powerpoint Presentatations, etc etc to get the TA in the hands of the membership. If the IBT can't use technology to inform the membership, how the hell can they negotiate the use of technology in the Master Agreement.
Bubblehead
My Senior Picture
Ok chief, but I only said summons them to a meeting which could be as you describe.
Unfortunately I doubt my local is equipped for such a meeting.
Either way, it is a long accepted practice to take it to the local who in turn takes it to the members.
Last edited:
Similar threads
