WMDs

susiedriver

Well-Known Member
DOD Official on the find(AP):
But a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the weapons were not considered likely to be dangerous because of their age.

I think for something to be considered a WMD it should be a usable weapon. I think that's what the 'W' stands for.


Also from Wiki:
The US FBI also considers conventional weapons (i.e. bombs) as WMD: "A weapon crosses the WMD threshold when the consequences of its release overwhelm local responders". Gustavo Bell Lemus, the Vice President of Colombia, called small arms WMD because bullet fatalities "dwarf that of all other weapons systems - and in most years greatly exceed the toll of the atomic bombs that devastated Hiroshima and Nagasaki".
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
were not considered likely to be dangerous because of their age.

I think for something to be considered a WMD it should be a usable weapon. I think that's what the 'W' stands for.

IF that is actually the case, then why all the hoopla about those chemical weapons we had to dispose of a decade or two ago. It would seem that if they are indeed harmless, then I guess we got snookered?

As to the wilki definition of WMD, a person then can go into a crowded movie cinema with a loaded AK47 and empty the gun several times then that would make it a WMD.

Also, according to the explanation, in a small rural town, a 9MM pistol could also be a WMD, because it too could very easily cause enough casualties to overwhelm the medical and law enforcement for that area.

So you are saying, with those quotes, that it all depends on where and how the WMD's are used. As long as it causes enough health problems to overwhelm the responding services.

I would then also expect for you to admit that a car bomb that kills 60 and wound 150 would also meet your criteria for a WMD.

So I rest my case. Those shells have the capability, or at the very least had, to be used as WMD's. And of course we all know that he did use WMD's as he saw fit. On his own people no less.

Oh and by the way, two planes knocking down two buildings also qualify as WMD's. But you would rather we not bring that up, would you.

Have a happy fourth. I am sure your effigy of bush will burn brightly.

d
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Had roles been reversed (yes I believe we'd still be in a war had Gore or Kerry gotten the WH and Bush never been there) we'd see the democrats defending the war and the republicans protesting with just as loud of voice. Maybe even louder. God, what sick delight it would be to go to a parallel universe with a video camera and DVD recorder to hook to the TV set. It's all about controlling the power and protecting the planned society they have us destined for.

As far as your religious and political views, you and I are not that far apart, as far as we perceive the war and politics.

Only difference is that I dont fret about it like you do. I am content that He is in total control, and what comes later is much better than what we have here.

This life is but a football game. And for most people, that is all they live for. But for those that understand, the real living and life starts after the football game is over.

And I am cool with that!

d
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
dannyboy said:
As far as your religious and political views, you and I are not that far apart, as far as we perceive the war and politics.

Only difference is that I dont fret about it like you do. I am content that He is in total control, and what comes later is much better than what we have here.

This life is but a football game. And for most people, that is all they live for. But for those that understand, the real living and life starts after the football game is over.

And I am cool with that!

d

Difference of opinion I guess!

As to Sarin and Mustard, they are chemical agents and I know Mustard is a Schedule 1 nerve agent but I've not found the classification of Sarin. I'm not positive of Mustard but Sarin has a very short shelf life and one thing that many were in search of was to lenghten that life span. About the only thing found to do this with limited success was in the purity of the raw chemicals used to make the Sarin. Wikipedia has a good basic article on both Sarin and Mustard so you might check that out. Explains the shelflife issue of Sarin.

Most of the disposal concerns center on the explosive charge used to disperse the agent moreso than the agent itself. Also the thinking is, if you find a beer you should find a 12 pack or a case. Also the arguement came down to "NO WMD's" as posed by the democratic side and felllow travelers for the most part and the "See we did in fact find WMD's" on the republican side and it's fellow travelers. IMO bothsides skewed the real questions that should be at the forefront. 1) Did Iraq have a working network for the manufacture and maintaining of WMD prior to the recent Iraq invasion? At this point all evidence sez that Iraq did not have or poccess the ability to do this. Now the other question, 2) Did Iraq prior to have and then moved or sold the ability to do so? At best maybe a little circumstanial evidence but IMO this question may take a few more years to completely answer and in fact we may never completely answer with complete certainity other than to except what we know at the time and move on from there. If you're willing to consider the past spy verse spy games that revolved around this region, it's not beyond the pale the some CIA opts moved in ahead of the game and removed some of the very toys that they themselves had given Saddam over the years. That is a standard MO of the CIA in the firstplace. Is there hard evidence of this? Not to my knowledge but in other cases throughout the years it has come to light that the CIA operated on this level so there you go.

Conspiractorial or just giving thought to all possibilities as a good cop would of how a certain criminal would work when you sit dead in the middle of a massive crime wave with not one case resolved.

One other thing on this WMD thing. Some stuff was found and it was pre-91' and there were also some missles that breeched the mileage range limitation imposed when the 91' War on Iraq came to an end. Those missles to my knowledge were post 91' construction. Part of the reason we didn't remove Saddam in 91' had to do with the coldwar mentality that he may be a dictator but he is our dictator and it's better to leave him in control than risk removal, chaos and for Iraq to fall into the Communist sphere. Look at the relationship Iraq built with Russia in the post 91' years and the whole ColdWar/At War mentality for the Military Industrial complex that even still plays around Washington and you may understand some more of the subject. Russia has vast oil reserves and Saddam was already threatening to sell oil for Euros instead of the OPEC mandate of selling only on the NY and London markets for US dollars which would have undercut the US Dollars dominence as the global currency of trade and the potential of parlaying Russia with control of Iraqi oil and you have the re-emergence of the Russian Bear which the Cold Warriors do not want even though the Stalinist model of communism has been decared dead. BTW:Iran has been threatening to do the same as Saddam in selling oil for Euros and openingtheir own market in Tehran itself. Also interesting that the whole Iran and nukes began almost at the same time as Iran started threatening the oil for euros sale!

Hmmm.

Lastly, it's not that I fret because it's really so big, very little really I can do about it. But here's where I see the difference.

You and I are standing in the middle of the railroad track and the train is coming at us with all due speed. You choose the turn you back and not look knowing that the good Lord will take care of you in the end. Hey sounds good and no argument if you choose that method. Me on the otherhand I'd rather face it head on, learn all that I can about the situation in the hope that somehow I can jump off the tracks and avoid getting hit altogether or at the most just getting barely scrapped. I know the Lord is very busy and if I can help not bothering him I will but I also know that if I'm not able to miss then he'll take care of me too! I always liked having more than one option.:wink:

Just a different worldview I guess!
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
I dont disagree one bit with the train analogy. But instead of turning my back, I too will get off the track.

It comes to the point where HE does expect us to do what we can for ourselves. But when it gets to the point that we no longer have that ability, which is where we are when it comes to elections, world events, etc, then I figure I do what I can, then focus on changing things here.

d
 

tieguy

Banned
Re: Phony WMDs

susiedriver said:
Okay, let’s try to dissect the truth from the bullcrap.

Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

So we are able to discern from Santorum’s statement that about 500 shells containing ‘degraded’ chemicals that pre-date 1991 have been discovered. These were not ‘WMDs’ despite dBoys definition. These were (15 years ago) tactical battlefield munitions. Not a good thing, but not a WMD. These were unusable shells that were not destroyed after the Gulf War. They are not WMDs, they are not evidence that Saddam was pursuing a weapons program after 1991. This was all addressed in The Duelfer Report, and Dear Leader commented on that over a year and a half ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14897-2004Oct7?language=printer

The reason no one besides Fox is reporting on this is Santorum (R- Homophobe) is full of crap. This was not the reason we invaded Iraq, there are no WMDs there, in spite of dBoys statement of ‘those of us that knew they were there’.

Oh, dBoy, I don’t think WMDs were the reason for the war in Bosnia, either.

One more thing, I hate Bush.

Oh why don't you go stalk someone.
 

tieguy

Banned
susiedriver said:
dBoy, are you saying that degraded tatical battlefield munitions are WMD's?

Who degraded them? If they are as you say then Hussien had no reason to hide them from the weapons inspectors?

Are you saying that battlefield munitions can not be WMD's?

Perhaps you should return to stalking a skill you seem better suited for?
 

scratch

Least Best Moderator
Staff member
The reason that I started this Thread, I was surprised to see this in the Media, it was soon glossed over using terms like "degraded old Weapons that were no longer dangerous. BS. I have a friend of mine who has a daughter in a Marine detachment that has been handling some of these as far back as two years ago. Yes, these 500 mortar and artillery shells were pre '91, and a lot of them were in bad shape being stored in bad environmental conditions like 100+ degree desert heat. But some of them weren't, some were used by insurgents in their "improvised explosive devices". I know a lot of military folks, and it is strongly believed that 1000 tons of two different types of nerve gas were moved into Syria by Russian technicians while the U.S. wasted time trying to go through the United Nations before the invasion.
Old Chemical Weapons aren't dangerous? You have got to be kidding. I live downwind of the U.S. Army's Chemical Weapons School in Anniston Alabama. There was a big stink raised around here when they started incinerating WW 11 era weapons three years ago. A lot of Chemical Weapons are binary, meaning they don't work until two different parts are mixed together. Our country produced vast quantities of these things for years, but now the shell and bomb casings are so old they leak and are being destroyed at several sites over the country as per international treaty.
The real point that I would like people to think about is this: Why is it that the Radical Muslims hate our Society? When did this start?
The reason I think they hate us is because of the way we are perceived overseas in a completely different culture. They have never had the freedom we have, they don't have a clue about electing their own government. Women are considered property, meaning half their population has no right to contribute their ideas and talents. You have conflict between different tribes and religious factions. A big part of the problem is the garbage we export overseas in our music, cinema, TV, and now the internet. Their society is really still in the dark ages.
When did this start? I think in 1979 when the Shaw of Iran was overthrown by the radicals there. I have a man I deliver to by the name of Col. Charles Scott. He was in the US Embassy in Tehran as an Army advisor, and was held captive along with 65 others the last 444 days of Jimmy Carter's Presidency. The US has been attacked many times since, the following speech somebody sent me in an e-mail pretty much says it all:
World War III Began In 1979
This is not very long, but very informative You have to read the
catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how
anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our
troops home from Iraq, sit back reset the snooze alarm, go back to
sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it,
World War III began in November 1979... that alarm has been ringing
for years.
US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air
Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave
last month. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much
trouble today and why this action is so necessary.
AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!
That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When
more than 3,000 Americans were killed, and maybe it was, but I think it
should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock
has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze
button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since
then.
It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a
religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students
attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was
an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the
world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The
attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to
follow for the next 25 years.
America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam
experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then,
President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a
clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin,
but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.
America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized
since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped
and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex
mission that was doomed from the start.
Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped
and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to
protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against
US soil continued.
In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was
driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it
kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze
Button once more.
Then just six short months later in 1983 a large truck heavily laden
down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of
the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are
killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.
Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with
explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America
continues her slumber.
The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into
the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.
Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes
in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.
Then in August 1985 a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven
into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are
killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US
interests are continually attacked.
Fifty-nine days later in 1985 a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is
hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out
of the passenger list and executed.
The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners
when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the
most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in
1988, killing 259.
Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still
trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.
The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.
The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993,
two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in
Langley, Virginia.
The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are
arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the
underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in
New York
City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is
a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.
Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in
Riyadh Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.
A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only
35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It
destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing
19 and injuring over 500 The terrorists are getting braver and
smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.
They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two
US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.. These attacks were planned with
precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile
attacks and goes back to sleep.
The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on
12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and
exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an
act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went
back to sleep.
And of course you know the events of
11 September
2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil
or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant
attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over
and go back to sleep. In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every
high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't
know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I
think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the
FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern
that has been developing since 1979.
I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will
continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs
to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively! now. America has been changed
forever.. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice
to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting
the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "... it seems
all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message
we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.
This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year
this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom
of our children in years to come.

Tomorrow, the Fourth of July, I am going to spend with a new friend of mine. He is a Gulf War One Veteran, a US Army Major who has been to Iraq twice. Last Sunday in my Methodist Church, We gave a standing ovation to a couple of our members who have made it back. I hope that all of you will remember to thank these guys and gals in uniform, our Freedom we take for granted has been paid for with a dear price.
 

tieguy

Banned
great post. How soon we forget. The war of terrorism only exists because terrorists think we are vunerable to it. Only by making the price of this war too steep will we ever hope to win it. This concept does not rule out reasonable diplomatic solutions in addition to the military ones. Negotiating with terrorist can never be a solution and would be a slap in the face of our service people everywhere.

Saddaam Hussien knew we were coming. He had plenty of time to hide what he had. If these pre 91 weapons no longer were effective then the common sense thing to do would be for Saddam to offer them up to the UN inspectors to show he was willingly complying with the many UN sanctions and mandates imposed. Are we to believe Saddam hid these old ineffective weapons in the hope we would invade and depose him?

In my opinion before you completely discount these weapons as being ineffective and non threatening you have to ask why Saddam would not offer them up to the UN in order to save himself?
 
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