Accountability

hellfire

no one considers UPS people."real" Teamsters.-BUG
In order to hold someone accountable, you have to give them the authority to make decisions. If I tell you how to do something and you do what I say, its not your fault if I don't like the outcome.
.
i have been in the office with the center manager when the order comes down from above to cut cars, then the next day the center manager is in trouble because he had to many over 9/5's.. i still say lower level operations,(the center manager down) and drivers are the most accountable
 

packageguy

Well-Known Member
I have a good one. preloader late everyday -- out a ton, or always wants to go home. they asked him if he wanted a part time preload supervisor. he said yes no joke still laughing I can't believe it .
 

DS

Fenderbender
First, I think that there is a difference between accountability and discipline,
I guess it depends on the situation.
Accountability means that you are responsible for your actions.
Personally, I think too many UPS managers mix up these issues.
.
You hit the nail on the head with this one.
I personally do not believe ups is a vile company with no heart.
I do think that after 100 years they should have realized that the operational aspect of what we do is the most important.A new center manager can be assigned to a center and can devastate the moral of 100's of people doing what he thinks is right in less than a week.Everything that happens at ups has happened before.If a driver is expected to follow 310 methods,then I believe a center manager should have a set way to deal with each situation as well.A lot of posters have good reason to be jaded through experience.Lets just get out the rule book and look it up.
 

JustTired

free at last.......
First, I think that there is a difference between accountability and discipline, and there are different discipline rules for management and hourly. Hourly employees have prescribed progressive discipline rules and management do not. There is also a difference between behavior and outcome.

In the situation you bring up, the behavior of directing the employee is the problem. This behavior is wrong whether or not the employee got hurt. That behavior needs to be corrected. Is the proper correction termination or a discussion? I guess it depends on the situation.

I have never seen a driver fired for a first infraction of not wearing a seat belt. (Actually, I have never seen a driver fired for for not wearing a seat belt period. Maybe it has happened).

Accountability means that you are responsible for your actions. Whether you receive discipline for it or not is another story. Many people hold themselves accountable. Many correct their own behavior. The purpose of discipline is to correct behavior.

I think one would be hard pressed to think management is NOT accountable. Management is held accountable for their actions as well as the actions of their employees. If you want to argue that the discipline that goes along with the accountability is imbalanced, then that's another discussion.

In order to hold someone accountable, you have to give them the authority to make decisions. If I tell you how to do something and you do what I say, its not your fault if I don't like the outcome.

So, a discussion on accountabilty brings with it a discussion on authority, responsibility, outcome, behavior, and types of discipline.

Personally, I think too many UPS managers mix up these issues. They manage by outcome, not behavior. Good behavior and a bad outcome requires an analysis of the process. Bad behavior and a good outcome is not sustainable (and its dangerous).

Rather than focus on the outcome, the discussion needs to be on the behavior (or decision) that led to that bad outcome. That is all someone can change.

I've been pondering the question of accountability for several days....thinking what my response might be. I believe you've captured the essence of the subject and the responses to it.

I highlighted the part of your post that I believe gets down to the main root of the problem. Until that becomes the philosophy of those at the top.....I believe the situation will worsen.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
The underlying problem is that the average UPS management person is not allowed to manage the business...he is forced instead to manage the metric.

Our current management structure is totally incapable of solving problems using a holistic approach. Rather than solving a problem by examining and fixing its root causes, they view the problem as a series of unrelated, ever-changing metrics that must be individually manipulated on a weekly or monthly basis.

So as a company, we blunder through the workweek essentially trying to swat flies with a sledgehammer, all the while totally unable to comprehend why so many of the flies are getting away and why we have so many holes in the walls.

Imagine how much stronger we would be if our management were simply empowered to do the right thing.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Well lets get a bit more involved in the discussion.

An employee injures his knee. The injury causes him to go to the company doctor, who takes him off duty for 6 weeks. During that time, he instructs UPS to not allow the driver to climb stairs, and do very minimal walking.

The center manager then instructs the employee to come in at 4AM and begin cleaning out the package cars, including washing the windshields inside and out. When the employee points out the restrictions to the center manager, he is told that he must work as instructed on TAW.

The second day of washing the windows, the employee, while trying to protect his injured knee, steps down out of a package car and twists his other knee. This second injury is much more severe than the first, and after two surgeries to the knee, the company doc says no more delivery or even feeder work, as the knee will not take the strain.

So, now we have an employee who could have returned to work after the six weeks, and continued for years as a delivery driver or feeder driver. But instead, because the center manager chose to ignore the written instructions from the company doctor, he no longer has employment at ups.

IS the center manager accountable for his actions? Should he be held accountable for the $500,000 to $1,500,000 or more in lost wages and benefits caused to the employee? Should the accountability be personal, or is it just UPS that is responsible. And if he is not accountable, why not?

d
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
Well lets get a bit more involved in the discussion.

................................
IS the center manager accountable for his actions? Should he be held accountable for the $500,000 to $1,500,000 or more in lost wages and benefits caused to the employee? Should the accountability be personal, or is it just UPS that is responsible. And if he is not accountable, why not?

d

Wow, great post!
 
Well lets get a bit more involved in the discussion.

An employee injures his knee. The injury causes him to go to the company doctor, who takes him off duty for 6 weeks. During that time, he instructs UPS to not allow the driver to climb stairs, and do very minimal walking.

The center manager then instructs the employee to come in at 4AM and begin cleaning out the package cars, including washing the windshields inside and out. When the employee points out the restrictions to the center manager, he is told that he must work as instructed on TAW.

The second day of washing the windows, the employee, while trying to protect his injured knee, steps down out of a package car and twists his other knee. This second injury is much more severe than the first, and after two surgeries to the knee, the company doc says no more delivery or even feeder work, as the knee will not take the strain.

So, now we have an employee who could have returned to work after the six weeks, and continued for years as a delivery driver or feeder driver. But instead, because the center manager chose to ignore the written instructions from the company doctor, he no longer has employment at ups.

IS the center manager accountable for his actions? Should he be held accountable for the $500,000 to $1,500,000 or more in lost wages and benefits caused to the employee? Should the accountability be personal, or is it just UPS that is responsible. And if he is not accountable, why not?

d
There is new contract language for taw. They can't make you start any more than two hours before or later than your normal start time. If the manager instructed you to do something against you restrictions or that you felt was unsafe it is the employees responsiblity to speak up. If this warning did not cause the manager to back off then the employee would file a grievence under article 18 and all other articles that apply.

I think we just might have found another form of accountability Teamster accountability. I notice alot of teamsters like to blame the local union or the steward for there lack of knowledge on contract language. People have the contract and dont read it or they make so much money at this job that they don't care until they feel theyve been wronged.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
Well lets get a bit more involved in the discussion.

An employee injures his knee. The injury causes him to go to the company doctor, who takes him off duty for 6 weeks. During that time, he instructs UPS to not allow the driver to climb stairs, and do very minimal walking.

The center manager then instructs the employee to come in at 4AM and begin cleaning out the package cars, including washing the windshields inside and out. When the employee points out the restrictions to the center manager, he is told that he must work as instructed on TAW.

The second day of washing the windows, the employee, while trying to protect his injured knee, steps down out of a package car and twists his other knee. This second injury is much more severe than the first, and after two surgeries to the knee, the company doc says no more delivery or even feeder work, as the knee will not take the strain.

So, now we have an employee who could have returned to work after the six weeks, and continued for years as a delivery driver or feeder driver. But instead, because the center manager chose to ignore the written instructions from the company doctor, he no longer has employment at ups.

IS the center manager accountable for his actions? Should he be held accountable for the $500,000 to $1,500,000 or more in lost wages and benefits caused to the employee? Should the accountability be personal, or is it just UPS that is responsible. And if he is not accountable, why not?
d
dannyboy,

This is an excellent example. I hope it in not true.

The center manager is responsible for this.

He should be held accountable to the fullest extent allowable by law.

The accountablity should be personal and corporate.

Sincerely,
I
 

menotyou

bella amicizia
There is new contract language for taw. They can't make you start any more than two hours before or later than your normal start time. If the manager instructed you to do something against you restrictions or that you felt was unsafe it is the employees responsiblity to speak up. If this warning did not cause the manager to back off then the employee would file a grievence under article 18 and all other articles that apply.

I think we just might have found another form of accountability Teamster accountability. I notice alot of teamsters like to blame the local union or the steward for there lack of knowledge on contract language. People have the contract and dont read it or they make so much money at this job that they don't care until they feel theyve been wronged.

I guess things are different in the bigger buildings. In the boondocks, harassment is normal. Work as directed or else. They have no accountability for their actions. You can file all the grievances you want. They just ignore. I know all to well. I was a union steward. Have grievances from March of 2009 on various issues(sups working, harassment of a union steward-me, ect.) that still have not been taken care of. How do you stand up for yourself when no one is standing with you? Our union just took a driver off the road to add another BA to the rolls because the President doesn't or can't take care of our building. The president hasn't done much around here except gain weight. I do know my contract and I can't blame management if management is getting away with things because the union is ignoring our grievances, phone calls,emails, and basic pleading. I do go to meetings and vote. I am furious with our union and its laziness. Why can't they show up at least once a year? Why don't we have some type of introduction for the new hires?

Come on out to the boondocks if you think your building is bad. Sales people don't even like coming here, the ones that are left.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
407

The problem is that you file, and there are several days before it can and will be heard. In this particular case, it was to be heard on Thursday, the day after the injury to the right knee. So when you talk about accountability, I agree. The union has a large chunk of accountability in this case as well. They had the grievance on Monday, but could/would not hear it until Thursday? That means the employee had to work as instructed for those 4 days, per the union and contract. Why could it not have been taken care of within hours of the filing on Monday?

I, no this is not an exercise. This was a real situation that placed one of our drivers in harms way. And the driver has since had more surgeries and constant cutting pain, not to the left knee that was originally injured, that one has healed, but to the right knee, the one injured on TAW. And the workers comp settlement was far less than a driver earns in one year. About half.

So now his career is gone, his income as well.

As a side note, UPS could/would have created a full time position for this driver,(they did it before for a driver that ended up a diabetic and was removed from driving) but because of the union contract, the job would have to be put up for bid in less than a year, and the most senior driver would get the job, and this driver would be unemployed again.

d
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
407

The problem is that you file, and there are several days before it can and will be heard. In this particular case, it was to be heard on Thursday, the day after the injury to the right knee. So when you talk about accountability, I agree. The union has a large chunk of accountability in this case as well. They had the grievance on Monday, but could/would not hear it until Thursday? That means the employee had to work as instructed for those 4 days, per the union and contract. Why could it not have been taken care of within hours of the filing on Monday?

I, no this is not an exercise. This was a real situation that placed one of our drivers in harms way. And the driver has since had more surgeries and constant cutting pain, not to the left knee that was originally injured, that one has healed, but to the right knee, the one injured on TAW. And the workers comp settlement was far less than a driver earns in one year. About half.

So now his career is gone, his income as well.

As a side note, UPS could/would have created a full time position for this driver,(they did it before for a driver that ended up a diabetic and was removed from driving) but because of the union contract, the job would have to be put up for bid in less than a year, and the most senior driver would get the job, and this driver would be unemployed again.

d


We are required to work as directed per the contract with two notable exeptions.
Those being when directed to do something unsafe or dishonest.
Had this employee refused the assignment outside his restrictions, he would have avoided this issue.
As it stands now he is in for a long legal battle, one where his lawyers will get a significant piece of the settlement.
I think, and he will correct me if I'm wrong, 407 was more refering to our front line brothers and sisters who don't take the time to learn the contract and their rights and enforce them accordingly rather than the local elected officers.
These are the ones he refers to as Me-sters, not Teamsters.
These are the Teamsters that need to provide an increased "accounability" if I'm reading him right.
For the record, I agree whole heartedly.
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
AFternoon Tie

The driver should have worked within the limitations of his doctors orders. If he had any doubts about what he is told to do then he should have gotten clarification with steward present to ensure he understood what he was being asked to do. Ultimately though he is also responsible for following his doctors orders and has the right to refuse instructions that violate those orders and limitations.
They did have such a meeting with the steward and management. And that is when the driver was told to obey the instructions of the manager until the grievance was heard. This is also addressed in the contract and the driver and steward were following the language. There is no provision allowing the driver to refuse an instruction from the center manager.

There is also another consideration that came into play. You damn well know what happens to a driver that refuses TAW work offered to him by the employer. Would you care to comment on that? So please, dont give me a story about how the largest share of accountability for the injury lies with the employee.

How does someone moving slowly and carefully following their doctors orders twist the other knee?
Glad you asked.

First off, how can an employee follow their doctors orders when the center manager mandates that he do things that violate the instructions in the dr's orders? There is no way.

At 4AM in the morning, the interior of the building is very dimly lit, with the belt lines lit brightly. The driver was attempting to dismount a package car to enter another shorter vehicle. The right foot hit a large spot of oil/water. The oil was from the night before that dripped out of a package car, the water from the car wash. The driver, after review, could not see the spot on the floor. While the driver did have a hand on the hand rail, the left knee did not have the ability to support the driver after the right foot slid out. Therefor the hand grip was broken by the weight of the driver, and he came down on the right knee in a very akward angle, causing the soft tissue damage to the right knee.

What is interesting is that the safety committee had filed grievances on large areas of the floor being contaminated with oil/water combinations, and the dimly lit interior of the building over the package cars. We were told that the company wanted to save electric costs were the reason for the interior being dimly lit, and there was nothing they could do about trucks leaking oil. Both of these actions or inactions by the company were contributing factors to the injury.

d
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Bubble
We are required to work as directed per the contract with two notable exceptions.
Those being when directed to do something unsafe or dishonest.
Had this employee refused the assignment outside his restrictions, he would have avoided this issue.
This was brought up at the meeting where the grievance was presented. The first statement out of the companies mouth was that the act of washing windows on a package car is not an unsafe act, therefore it is not covered under the contract language. And if you read the post above, when you are offered TAW, and you refuse, do you know what happens?

The doctors restrictions were very plain, no climbing of stairs, and very limited walking. The center manager knew, read, and had the copy from the doctor. The doctor even called the center the next day after the driver contacted the doctor on the issue. And the center manager still refused to stop the driver from continuing the window washing. So please, go read your contract. How does washing windows in a package car constitute an unsafe act under the contract?

As for me-sters vs teamsters, I dont see how that plays into the conversation.

Best

d
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
u
Bubble
This was brought up at the meeting where the grievance was presented. The first statement out of the companies mouth was that the act of washing windows on a package car is not an unsafe act, therefore it is not covered under the contract language. And if you read the post above, when you are offered TAW, and you refuse, do you know what happens?

The doctors restrictions were very plain, no climbing of stairs, and very limited walking. The center manager knew, read, and had the copy from the doctor. The doctor even called the center the next day after the driver contacted the doctor on the issue. And the center manager still refused to stop the driver from continuing the window washing. So please, go read your contract. How does washing windows in a package car constitute an unsafe act under the contract?

As for me-sters vs teamsters, I dont see how that plays into the conversation.

Best

d

It's unsafe because it is outside the doctors restrictions.
This is validated by the doctors subsequent phone call.
It was a matter of calling this idiots bluff and you guys got bullied.
It was and still is my contention that he was protected by Art 18 as well as any discipline being construed as retatiation for being injured on the job.
We may have to agree to disagree.
 

Integrity

Binge Poster
u

It's unsafe because it is outside the doctors restrictions.
This is validated by the doctors subsequent phone call.
It was a matter of calling this idiots bluff and you guys got bullied.
It was and still is my contention that he was protected by Art 18 as well as any discipline being construed as retatiation for being injured on the job.
We may have to agree to disagree.
Bubblehead,

I think it is unreasonable to expect the average UPS employee to refuse to work under these circumstances.

The corrupt safety culture in some big corporations and the lack of unity in the response of many employees to situations such as this has really made this hard for the average employee.

In this situation, it is unreasonable to expect the average employee to refuse up to the point of temination.

Bubblehead, you should be commended for your strength and determination in standing up when you need to. You must however admit that for everyone that is like you, there are probably 99 that are not. Big corporations need more people like you!!!

Conversely, it is quite reasonable to expect an average management person at a large corporation to see that injured employees are treated with dignity and respect.

It is also reasonable to expect an average management person to see that an injured employee on restricted duty follows the restrictions that have been imposed on them.

An average management person of a large corporation should never try to harass, coerce, or intimidate an injured employee in an attempt to get the employee to work against doctors restrictions.

Sincerely,
I
 
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We are required to work as directed per the contract with two notable exeptions.
Those being when directed to do something unsafe or dishonest.
Had this employee refused the assignment outside his restrictions, he would have avoided this issue.
As it stands now he is in for a long legal battle, one where his lawyers will get a significant piece of the settlement.
I think, and he will correct me if I'm wrong, 407 was more refering to our front line brothers and sisters who don't take the time to learn the contract and their rights and enforce them accordingly rather than the local elected officers.
These are the ones he refers to as Me-sters, not Teamsters.
These are the Teamsters that need to provide an increased "accounability" if I'm reading him right.
For the record, I agree whole heartedly.
+1 you hit the nail on the head. I bet I could start a sentence and you could finish it. Great minds think alike my union brother from another mother.
 
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