Afghanistan war
- Thread starter moreluck
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wkmac
Well-Known Member
Interesting interview that the US via USAID is funding the Taliban.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
The question was really simple, he wants YOUR idea of winning. Nothing hard to comprehend in his request.
Nice dodge though.
Now step up.
The question was very simple I wanted your idea of winning yet still no answer. Why is that? Could you not find a slogan to fit? You demanded something from me on the behalf of someone else yet you refuse to answer a simple question. For the life of me I cannot understand why one would do that.
I thought maybe you would take the easy out and copy Obama when he said this.
“I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat Al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan and to prevent their return to either country in the future,”
You could have said winning would be to "deny Al Qaeda the safe haven to organize and train".
Your lack of any type of answer could be seen as a clear indication of the lack of any type of ability to think on your own. Was that possibly a question you had not seen on any of your radical left wing blogs? Is winning a word not taught in public schools anymore?
You could have copied the dictionary entry.
"to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause"
Yet nothing when it was clearly an important enough question for you to jump in.
AV8,
I made my position very clear already. I guess you need a reminder. I personally dont believe there is a way to WIN in Afghanistan.
I dont care if you place another 100K troops on the ground and the support to house that number, you will never be able to control the country.
The rational for this is simple. DRUGS. Until our country is ready to face the music and wipe out ALL the poppy fields in Afghanistan, we will NEVER win in Afghanistan. The billion dollar drug industry as well as the corruption of President Karzai will only lead to the deaths of hundreds of US soldiers over the next whatever years we are stuck there.
The Karzai goverment has made deals with many of the Taliban leaders in order to stay in power and those deals are the reason the country is unstable.
I as an american, am not in a position to lock in our fine young men and women to a war that is UNWINABLE just to be politically correct. I will not support staying there for another 5 years or so wasting billions of dollars and the lives of our military personnel on a treadmill of death.
There is too much influence by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, China, Yemen and even Somalia in Afghanistan. Money and weapons continue to flow into the hands of the Taliban. In the years of our occupation under BUSH, nothing was done to cut off this influence.
Today, the Taliban is larger than it was when we invaded. They are also better armed today than they were when we invaded.
When BUSH failed America by leaving less soldiers in Afghanistan than there are policemen in New York city to attack IRAQ, he gave up any strategic advange we could have had in Afghanistan.
After BUSH left Afghanistan for his failure in Iraq, the Taliban was able to regroup, rearm, retake and refund there efforts by improving relationships with countries angry with us.
That put us where we are today. There are many generals who have wrote in books this EXACT point.
Many generals involved with Afghanistan and replaced by BUSH because they advised him that going into Iraq was a mistake before finishing Afghanistan were right on the money.
So my answer is this. Give it a year, see what can be accomplish, if no progress, then pull out, take our lumps and leave that country alone to fight its own battles.
If Karzai wants to make deals with the drug industry to stay in power, then he suffers the consequences. As far as Al Qaeda, well, I dont really believe they exist anymore and have transformed into something different.
The violence in the region will not stop. Pakistan now hosts most of the radicals left in that region. We lost any advantage to get them before they fled to Pakistan. Now they can come and go into Afghanistan with impunity.
40K troops and the support network to handle that troop increase will accomplish nothing.
We are suppose to be a superpower, yet we have been held off by a third world rag tag group of desert dwellers, thats embarrassing enough for me.
I dont need another 5 years of war to be convinced that we need to get out of there.
My answer, get out, and get out while informing Karzai he'd better clean up his act and start acting like a democracy.
His recent election was "rigged" and may not hold anyway. Fraud and corruption has been discovered and this will only lead to more violence.
Time to get out.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
AV8,
I made my position very clear already. I guess you need a reminder. I personally dont believe there is a way to WIN in Afghanistan.
You asked me what I would do to win. A complicated question. I asked you to define win. A simple question. You refuse to answer. You must not know.
I did not ask you your position. I do not care. I did not ask you thought it were possible to win as you probably could guess I do not care. It is mainly because you cannot even define what you see our nations goals as or what it would even mean to win.
klein
Für Meno :)
Well, I think you guys have it all wrong.
At the moment it's not about winning, but more to keep Al Queda and the Taliban in check. (not have them grow, and do major damage in worldwide terroist attacks).
Then, comes the second "win". To let Afghanis be able to control that themselves.
If poverty vanishes there (in time), and thier citizens are happy. It will eventually work, because any sort of disruption of thier new found freedom, and better lifestyle, will result in them fighting on thier own to maintain it.
AV8,
I am having trouble understanding your logic. I am clearly saying there is NO "winning" Afghanistan.
There is no way to define what a "win" is.
There is NO military solution, there is NO political solution, there is NO logistical solution, there is NO religious solution.
Today, the Afghanistan war is purely a Political football. On the left, they want to exit the war as quickly as possible without the political fallout seeing NO light at the end of the tunnel.
On the right, they dont care about victory or the safety of our troops, they are more concerned with the political leverage they can gain making a case for failure in Afghanistan. NOT ONE republican has layed out an outline for victory in Afghanistan.
They provide the same ole same ole, more troops, more troops..blah blah blah... just like in vietnam, the same cry for more troops was given for a dozen years until it was realized that the cost of the vietnam war was going to ruin the United States infrastructure.
Unfortunately, it did anyway. The years following the war in vietnam wiped out the economy for years.
Today, Afghanistan will do the same. spending endless dollars playing politics instead of tacklng the real problems in the middle east will hurt our economy for years to come.
The problem in Afghanistan goes beyond its borders and to merely lay troops on the ground will not accomplish a thing.
All the controversy from the right has to do with 2010 elections and nothing more. If they can make Afghanistan fail by putting more troops on the ground and increasing american deaths, in 2010 they can claim the President failed to manage the war.
The problem is, that the majority of americans understand BUSH failed in Afghanistan and put us where we are.
So AV8, make sure you read this sentence clearly: THERE IS NO WINNING IN AFGHANISTAN.
Until this country is ready to take on IRAN, RUSSIA, CHINA, PAKISTAN, SOMALIA, YEMEN, SAUDI ARABIA and all the smaller muslim countries connected to Afghanistan, then this war is a waste of time.
Make no mistake AV8, this war cannot be "won".
klein
Für Meno :)
AV8,
I am having trouble understanding your logic. I am clearly saying there is NO "winning" Afghanistan.
There is no way to define what a "win" is.
There is NO military solution, there is NO political solution, there is NO logistical solution, there is NO religious solution.
Today, the Afghanistan war is purely a Political football. On the left, they want to exit the war as quickly as possible without the political fallout seeing NO light at the end of the tunnel.
On the right, they dont care about victory or the safety of our troops, they are more concerned with the political leverage they can gain making a case for failure in Afghanistan. NOT ONE republican has layed out an outline for victory in Afghanistan.
They provide the same ole same ole, more troops, more troops..blah blah blah... just like in vietnam, the same cry for more troops was given for a dozen years until it was realized that the cost of the vietnam war was going to ruin the United States infrastructure.
Unfortunately, it did anyway. The years following the war in vietnam wiped out the economy for years.
Today, Afghanistan will do the same. spending endless dollars playing politics instead of tacklng the real problems in the middle east will hurt our economy for years to come.
The problem in Afghanistan goes beyond its borders and to merely lay troops on the ground will not accomplish a thing.
All the controversy from the right has to do with 2010 elections and nothing more. If they can make Afghanistan fail by putting more troops on the ground and increasing american deaths, in 2010 they can claim the President failed to manage the war.
The problem is, that the majority of americans understand BUSH failed in Afghanistan and put us where we are.
So AV8, make sure you read this sentence clearly: THERE IS NO WINNING IN AFGHANISTAN.
Until this country is ready to take on IRAN, RUSSIA, CHINA, PAKISTAN, SOMALIA, YEMEN, SAUDI ARABIA and all the smaller muslim countries connected to Afghanistan, then this war is a waste of time.
Make no mistake AV8, this war cannot be "won".
One thing you keep forgetting.
It;s not just the USA in Afghanistan !
It's a UN and Nato mission.
You can't put this to any president !
Iraq yes, but not Afghanistan.
I do realize you have now more troops then any other country, but it still is not an only American issue.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
WOW! I never knew that one day the UN and NATO on a whim decided, "let's go friend' UP Afghanistan and the Taliban just for fun. I'm bored so it'll be something to do!"
Good thing we have such smart people here so I don't get off the wrong track!
Well there's always Kipling and the White Man's burden.
In Obama's case, he can always blame it on his evil half!
Sorry but I don't suffer from white guilt, I jettisoned that BS and manipulation years ago! I don't fear to call it what it is, when it is!
But then we (Obama too) like bombing brown people! Tell em' George!
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
So AV8, make sure you read this sentence clearly: THERE IS NO WINNING IN AFGHANISTAN.
Make sure you read this sentence carefully. I do not care if you think we can win in Afghanistan or not as I never asked you if you thought we could win or not.
You cannot even define what it would take to win so of course you do not think a win is possible.
Obama on the other hand said he had a plan during his campaign for Afghanistan. Here we are ten months into his presidency and he has time for golf, date night, and to jet set around the world to glad hand Olympic officials but yet not time to implement his plan. This fool is a poor leader. This maroon is out living it up on the town while our military members die on the battlefield awaiting his "plan". This idiot is a bad joke. This fool is probably trying himself to look up what it means to win.
fact check
Well-Known Member
ad hominem attacks against the President of the United States reveal more about the attackers than the man they are attacking.
AV8,
Like ive said to you before, I will never call you the smartest guy in the room, but you continue to sound like the biggest hypocrite in the room.
When Bush attacked Afghanistan, he went on vacation after vacation while troops were getting killed, then when he invaded Iraq, he went on more vacations than any other president in history while our troops were getting killed 140 a month.
Then, you defended his actions while the country was outraged at his casual approach to managing a war. Not until his popularity dipped to 30% did he get off his rear and change strategies... Over 2000 troops died in Iraq before Bush stopped taking vacations and changed directions.
Not once did you pipe off about BUSH sitting on his rear while soldiers died, but you will for OBAMA? Get serious.
You sir, are a hypocrite.
But then again, your a military grunt and thats the last person anyone should ask about war strategy.
You just do what your told, and say what your told.
Thats why civilians govern the military.
Say what you want, I personally dont hold anything you say with any weight.
klein
Für Meno :)
WOW! I never knew that one day the UN and NATO on a whim decided, "let's go friend' UP Afghanistan and the Taliban just for fun. I'm bored so it'll be something to do!"
Good thing we have such smart people here so I don't get off the wrong track!
Face it former Yugoslavia was easier to win, and is now actually a safer place to live then America.
But, don't forget our troops, we do help you out :
Mon Oct 5, 12:09 PM
By Bill Graveland, The Canadian Press
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Getting from Kandahar Airfield to any of the forward operating bases in this troubled province has always been hazardous for the Canadian military.
Road convoys loaded with fresh troops and supplies were the lifeblood of the remote outposts - and a constant and easy target for the Taliban, who would attack with suicide bombers, small-arms fire and improvised explosive devices.
And then came the Chinooks.
On a recent day, a Chinook flanked by two CH-146 Griffon escort helicopters made about 15 stops, each for just a few minutes. It transported close to 200 Canadian and American soldiers to locations in the dangerous Panjwaii, Zhari and Arghandab districts, as well as one load of water.
We got five or six Chinooks that take off in all directions and they can land in the bad guys' backyard in a matter of minutes, and it catches them off guard. That effect is pretty amazing," he added.
At each stop for the Chinook, the coalition soldiers crammed in tightly, their dufflebags and backpacks stacked almost to the ceiling. Each time one of the gunners writes the name of the destination on a white board and holds it up, letting the passengers know whether it's time to get off.
"The numbers over a six-month period is by the thousands," said Lt.-Col. Marc Bigaouette, the commanding officer.
"I think we're coming close to 10,000 soldiers being moved. And it's not only the people that we move - it's the fact that we bring equipment, we bring supplies, food, all that stuff to them which they would have to get by road otherwise."
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Not once did you pipe off about BUSH sitting on his rear while soldiers died, but you will for OBAMA? Get serious.
You sir, are a hypocrite.
.
Why should I? He had a plan that worked. He led no matter how people like you felt. You cannot even put into words what it means to win yet you attacked the President multiple times. You could not even answer a simple question on here even though I tried to help you by giving multiple definitions to choose from. It is no wonder you support Obama. I guess he is waiting on the polls to tell him what to do.
Obama put his plan into place when he was elected. Obama was asked for more resources. Obama is out golfing and doing his date night thing while our troops die. He is a poor leader. He has had months to act on Afghanistan. He chose to go glad hand Olympic officials. You need to get over yourself Bush is no longer the President.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Relax sweetie those are the exact things that were said on here about President Bush.
fact check
Well-Known Member
1) Prove it
2) Are you gay? Why are you calling me 'sweetie'? Save the pillow talk for Tieguy.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Well sure it is. Once the US and western alliance had control of the region, they shifted their partners to other fronts as the real reason for the whole thing in the first place was then set in stone. Stand in that region, look due east and what do you see?
It's all about securing resources and more resources but ask yourself this for a moment. Why have all our major wars since the late 19th century been in major regions that either have, do control or trying to control one main resouce? And since our monetary system and its principle unit of exchange has since 1971' been backed by a single type resource comodity
which is at the heart of these conflicts. Then ask also, what would happen economically if we lost total control and access to any of these region's resources? What would happen with our own domestic industry and commerce? What would happen if say Russia or China got total control? Who stands to lose the most if such a thing were to happen? As the old saying goes, follow the money!
Consider that both Iraq and Iran were all but ignored until they did the unthinkable and challenge the monetary system of the empire. Problem was, we could not be told the truth so the Straussian "Noble Lie" was told so where is all that WMD? If Iraq didn't have sqwat, why should I believe the same people when it comes to Iran?
And what about Al Qaeda? You know, that outfit Bush said he was gonna get and now our current sitting President proclaims he'll get them. Another "Noble Lie"?
You tell me?
From part of the 3 part BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares
Did Winston ask the right question?
Fake Al Qaeda agents?
Hmmmm!
Well Bush early on dumped the "Get Bin Laben or Else" construct overboard and even before Obama took office, he too took up the party line. But like all things political, when your plan is stumbling and just not working out, the polls are suffering and the people are questioning, it's always a good thing to have some old tricks in the bag that you can drag out to shift the focus elsewhere. A political Bait and Switch?
I see today that Obama took home the Peace Prize and I guess Orwell is smiling again about being proven correct.
War is Peace!
I know much of what I said above will enflame the poles of the 2 party INGSOC so as is my duty, I give you your 2 minute hate!
Rant Away!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Ah, Master of Puppets!
Ever notice how drugs and gov't are so much alike? Both are doing their best to create an altered reality.
Tell Em' Boys!
BTW that pic was changed on Jan 20th when they retired the old worn out and beyond their usefulness former puppets.
klein
Für Meno :)
wkmac, nice anarchist symbol !
Do you really wanna go there ?
Here is an example :
Living in Somalia's anarchy
As Somalia's new government prepares to return to restore order after years of anarchy, the BBC News website's Joseph Winter reports from Mogadishu on life with no central control. Somalia is the only country in the world where there is no government.
Read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4017147.stm
And Al Quaida does exist.
We captured 5 or 6 of them up here, that wanted to blow up Toronto CN Tower, and other major bulidings in that city.
Don't think it's just a worldwide conspiracy!
Do you really wanna go there ?
Here is an example :
Living in Somalia's anarchy
As Somalia's new government prepares to return to restore order after years of anarchy, the BBC News website's Joseph Winter reports from Mogadishu on life with no central control. Somalia is the only country in the world where there is no government.
Read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4017147.stm
And Al Quaida does exist.
We captured 5 or 6 of them up here, that wanted to blow up Toronto CN Tower, and other major bulidings in that city.
Don't think it's just a worldwide conspiracy!
