Christianity

[Integrity]

Explain.

Been there done that.

 

[BrownFlush]

Not always.

Explain. What are the exceptions?

 

[BrownFlush]

Explain.

Been there done that.

?

Explain. What are the exceptions?

 

[Integrity]

Explain. What are the exceptions?

Exceptions to what?

 

[BrownFlush]

Exceptions to what?

There are limitations to human choice.

Good and bad are a direct result of the choices you or others have made.

Not always.

What are the exceptions?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

One thing I share with religious people is a view point of “God’s plan”. It’s a hard determinist stance that is not yet proved, but free will seems to be taking the same stance as the theists do when discussing their god.

It is free will of the gaps, same as when evolution focused biologist discuss “random” mutations. Just another way of saying we don’t have enough information to know how that works yet.

I don’t believe in free will and I do not believe in random. I just believe these are our ignorance.

I do believe people are wired differently within but I don't believe in pure determinism. I think upbringing plays a role in development but not the deciding role.
Biblically you cannot say that God hasn't determined the beginning to the end. Genesis to revelation. He picks out people (yes calvinistically @BrownFlush) to carry out the mission. Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David, Gideon, Jonah, the 12 disciples, Paul & I believe many others throughout history to fulfill his plan. Some were even chosen & rejected it. Isreal was the chosen people to carry his word and they went away to idols. Judas was chosen from the beginning to carry out the betrayal.
Free will means you accept the call & walk in it. Free will also means you reject the call & take your own path.
God knows those who will accept the call & walk with him. The question is, are we responsible for determining our path. Or did he wire us for accepting or rejecting.
When you see people with exactly the same upbringing, same information & 1 accepts and the other rejects you wonder what is the determining factor.

 

[El Correcto]

I do believe people are wired differently within but I don't believe in pure determinism. I think upbringing plays a role in development but not the deciding role.

So you had a choice and agency over your upbringing as a child?

Biblically you cannot say that God hasn't determined the beginning to the end. Genesis to revelation. He picks out people
@BrownFlush) to carry out the mission. Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David, Gideon, Jonah, the 12 disciples, Paul & I believe many others throughout history to fulfill his plan. Some were even chosen & rejected it. Isreal was the chosen people to carry his word and they went away to idols. Judas was chosen from the beginning to carry out the betrayal.
Free will means you accept the call & walk in it. Free will also means you reject the call & take your own path.

An all knowing god and free will are paradoxical. I haven’t heard a good argument for how god will know what you choose ahead of time and there is also free will.

God knows those who will accept the call & walk with him. The question is, are we responsible for determining our path. Or did he wire us for accepting or rejecting.
When you see people with exactly the same upbringing, same information & 1 accepts and the other rejects you wonder what is the determining factor.

No that isn’t the question at all, the question doesn’t even involve a mysterious beyond human comprehension god to be added to the mix.

The question is how much agency do human beings really have over themselves or can reality only be one way.

 

[Integrity]

@ Brownflush,

Did you choose your first grade teacher?

If you did then name anything in your life that you did not personally and specifically choose and there is your answer .

 

[El Correcto]

@ Brownflush,

Did you choose your first grade teacher?

If you did then name anything in your life that you did not personally and specifically choose and there is your answer .

Did you choose your genetics as a child, did you choose your environment and your emotions, did you choose to have self control or a conscience? Or are all those things just adaptations outside of your control and your “choices” are just a biproduct of things well outside of your choice?

 

[Integrity]

So you had a choice and agency over your upbringing as a child?

I say no.

An all knowing god and free will are paradoxical. I haven’t heard a good argument for how god will know what you choose ahead of time and there is also free will.

I disagree.

I believe you have to believe and know God by faith to really understand this.

Are you a parent?

No that isn’t the question at all, the question doesn’t even involve a mysterious beyond human comprehension god to be added to the mix.

In my view God is not added, He is over and behind all creation.

The question is how much agency do human beings really have over themselves or can reality only be one way.

In my view limited.

Did you choose your genetics as a child, did you choose your environment and your emotions, did you choose to have self control or a conscience? Or are all those things just adaptations outside of your control and your “choices” are just a biproduct of things well outside of your choice?

I believe in free will given to humans by God with limitations.

 

[El Correcto]

I say no.

Okay good then the nurture side of nature and nurture is still firmly in the determinist camp, not proof of free will.

I disagree.

That doesn’t really explain why.

I believe you have to believe and know God by faith to really understand this.

Yes I know free will and god go hand to hand and are baseless beliefs. I brought that up to you earlier, free will of the gaps and god of the gaps are very similar.

Are you a parent?

Yeah the gay man is a parent.

I believe in free will given to humans by God with limitations.

You’re piling baseless beliefs on top of each other, logical fallacies after logical fallacy, it all comes crumbling down with a shred of honesty and self reflection.

 

[Integrity]

Okay good then the nurture side of nature and nurture is still firmly in the determinist camp, not proof of free will.

Your choice to continue this discussion is proof enough for me.

That doesn’t really explain why.

To me it does, sorry.

Yes I know free will and god go hand to hand and are baseless beliefs. I brought that up to you earlier, free will of the gaps and god of the gaps are very similar.

Believe what you want, your choice.

Yeah the gay man is a parent.

I don’t understand?

You’re piling baseless beliefs on top of each other, logical fallacies after logical fallacy, it all comes crumbling down with a shred of honesty and self reflection.

That is what you choose to say, I choose to say differently.

 

[BrownFlush]

@ Brownflush,

Did you choose your first grade teacher?

If you did then name anything in your life that you did not personally and specifically choose and there is your answer .

Nope.
But, all the choices she made put her in seat to be my first grade teacher. I can decide/ choose if I like her. If I don’t, I can decide to tell my parents or suffer through the year. If I tell my parents, they can choose to do something or not..
Again, what ever you are given in life by the choices of others, good or bad, you are not left without choice.

 

[El Correcto]

Your choice to continue this discussion is proof enough for me.

This is another short narcissistic reply as some little gotcha moment, you can’t prove it is a choice and not just the state of reality, the only way it could possibly be.

To me it does, sorry.

Believe what you want, your choice.

I don’t understand?

That is what you choose to say, I choose to say differently.

Oh that is just the rest of your nonsense response as well. Yeah bud you really disappoint me, I expect better from you just to dive comfortably into your baseless claims instead of defending them.

 

[El Correcto]

Just declaring what you’re observing is a choice isn’t evidence of your claim for free will.

So far we are in agreement and evidence has forced you into a compabilist stance on free will. The free will part of your stance has no evidence supporting it, while the determinist stance has loads of supporting evidence.

 

[Integrity]

Nope.
But, all the choices she made put her in seat to be my first grade teacher. I can decide/ choose if I like her. If I don’t, I can decide to tell my parents or suffer through the year. If I tell my parents, they can choose to do something or not..
Again, what ever you are given in life by the choices of others, good or bad, you are not left without choice.

I agree with choice, free will with limits.

You are not left with the choice to change my mind.

 

[Integrity]

This is another short narcissistic reply as some little gotcha moment, you can’t prove it is a choice and not just the state of reality, the only way it could possibly be.

Oh that is just the rest of your nonsense response as well. Yeah bud you really disappoint me, I expect better from you just to dive comfortably into your baseless claims instead of defending them.

Wut?

 

[Integrity]

Just declaring what you’re observing is a choice isn’t evidence of your claim for free will.

So far we are in agreement and evidence has forced you into a compabilist stance on free will. The free will part of your stance has no evidence supporting it, while the determinist stance has loads of supporting evidence.

Wut?

 

[BrownFlush]

@FromOffTheStreets
"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he determined with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter XXI, Section 5).

"As Scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. We assert that, with respect to the elect, this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprehensible judgment he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation, (Ibid. Book III, Chapter XXI, Section 7). - John Calvin

 

[El Correcto]

Wut?

I explained it pretty clearly.
You have provided no proof of human agency over themselves, you just rely on the feeling of free will to prove it is valid, you feel like this is a choice so it must be, that isn’t a good argument. Just like you feeling god isn’t a good argument for the existence of a deity and afterlife actually existing.