Oil reaching the Gulf Coast

[diesel96]

The State and the Energy Monopoly

A good example IMO of Corperatism interfering with free market Capitalism....

Not funny at all, but if it makes the weak minded feel better, I say go for it. LOL!!

All the Obama-haters want the focus on the president and not BP. I suspect most level headed, mature grown ups are not drawing these conclusions.

 

[klein]

The State and the Energy Monopoly

wkmac, you mentioned this topic before.
Can you really imagine a world without patents ?

If you really put your mind to it. It would have created monopolies all around the world.
Bigger companies would just swallow up any new ideas. Examples: Microsoft and Apple, Blackberry, and others would probably be under the GE sign.
GE would have just stoled their Ideas, and put them into mass production, before any new company could.

The creation of new companies would no longer exist.

China and Japan would also steal any new ideas away, and ofcourse manufacture the products at a fraction of the price.

Industries would get lazy on new innovations. They would just wait, until someone else develops something new, and use their technoligy.
Cars would be almost all the same without patents. Why would anyone/everyone spend soo much money developing new auto parts, and fuel effencient engines, if they could just use whats on the market from some other company.
You would be amazed how many 1000's of parts in 1 single car are patented.

If you ask me, patents do excact the opossite. They create innovations, break down monopolies, create more new companies, and jobs, and gives the Western World, that little bit left of advantage to compete with China and other Asian or Indian countries. (In other words keeps more jobs here).

Think about it - You have a new idea for a product, hire a few employees, make your prototype, and before you know it, some big company takes it, and mass produces it, before you can even get really started. And your investment, time, money, idea is all gone for nothing !

 

[wkmac]

A good example IMO of Corperatism interfering with free market

Very true!

BTW I don't equate capitalism and free market as co-equal terms so I left that off.

wkmac, you mentioned this topic before.
Can you really imagine a world without patents ?

If you really put your mind to it. It would have created monopolies all around the world.
Bigger companies would just swallow up any new ideas.

To the question, Yes!

To your point,

The company that owned the patents for nickel metal hydride battery technology, which could have been useful in developing better electric cars, was purchased by oil company Texaco in 2001. Texaco was later purchased by oil company Chevron, who owned the battery patents until 2009. [3]
Whether or not this represents some petroleum executives’ plot to kill the electric car [4], it is certainly a case of using government privileges to monopolize the production of energy. Nobody but Chevron was allowed to experiment with the technical information that Chevron owned during the time its subsidiary held the patents. Chevron used a government privilege to insulate itself from competitive innovation.

Yeah I see your concern. Such monopolistic carnivores could never get ahead under the current "State Issued" patent system we have today right? Geez, what was I ever thinking. Thanks for saving me!

Ever done any reading about regulatory capture or rent seeking?

 

[klein]

I watched the show "Who killed the electric car". I know all about it.
Just can't remember if that battery patent was first sold to GM, and then to Texaco.
In any event, the inventor got well his money worth out of it. And he can sell it to anyone he pleases, if the price is right.

Sure is a bad example of how patents can work, yes.
But, in most cases, it creates more companies, more jobs, and better technoligy thru more innovation motives.

Go ahead if you wish, and take the US patent laws away. Then all sceintist and inventors will move elsewhere to do their research and develope new products/technoligy.
To be protected.

 

[diesel96]

Raging Grannies speak out.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9Wjgc_Teg&feature=player_embedded

 

[moreluck]

We can move the friggin' drillin' rigs on shore and then there won't be any pristine waters soiled !!

 

[wkmac]

Raging Grannies speak out.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9Wjgc_Teg&feature=player_embedded

LOL! That was good. I wonder what those grannies would think of BP if they knew of it's shady past? I also read an article and sorry I can't put my fingers on it but all the other oil companies used a type of collar device on the ocean floor that if something like this happened, a remote signal at the surface would shutoff the wellhead but BP opted not to install this collar. Again, I can't put my hands of the source so take this with a grain of salt until you prove it for yourself. However if true, it just IMO shows again the inherit dangers of limited liability interventions in the marketplace where corporations are granted special priviledge not enjoyed by all in the marketplace and then this in turn sets up the potential for seeking unjustified risks that cause extreme harm when it goes bad. The state priviledge of corp. status and limited liability along with copyright and intellectual property protections by the state creates a special class that is granted special protection that is not extended to all on an equal basis. A common law principle of equal under the law is severely violated and thus does often setup events like the Deepwater Horizon of unintended consequences in the marketplace.

What if all oil drilling in the gulf came with no protection of limited liability would they still drill? If you drill a water well in your yard and it blows out damaging your neighbors property, has gov't passed special law limiting your liability or are you on the hook for the damage? If we are all equal under the law, then why are we not afforded such protections as well? If we had such limited liability, where are the bounderies of risk at and how far might we go then as opposed to now? Capitalist want state intervention as do market collectivists and market socialist outside the individualist mindset. There are non-state market socialist but like true non state liassez faire types, I consider them true free marketeers in the spirit of freed markets. Kevin Carson's non-state mutualism is one such socialist type approach.


The term free market means just what it sez in that anyone can transact and interact with anyone else in the market place. You have a right to seek the labor, goods or services of others and they to you as well. I can't bar you from the marketplace nor can you bar me and if a fraud, trespass or coersion is commited, there is a remedy at the common law to resolve such actions. Limiting or protecting some from these remedies are a trespass in themselves and create an unfair heirarchy who then manipulate the marketplace causing further harm. Some who claim to be free market types scream and rail against the so-called poor among us who are given welfare via income transfer and it is true this is a market violation but such wealth transfers are a more recent eg 20th century market intervention. However, little to nothing is ever said of the even greater and first wealth transfers in this country all by the hand of gov't and one might look at the railroads in the 19th century to see this. The military was used to acquire land (taxpayer wealth transfer) and then special priviledge and market protections (ICC) were given to affect a central planning outcome. But in giving wealth to certain market players who held special status with the State, you have to remove that wealth from elsewhere and as the state grew and the priviledged corp. class grew with it (creating corporations is a state function, look at the history) it demanded more wealth transfer in order to profit and thus feed the tax regime that kept the state itself alive which in turn controlled the market place more and more. Classic parasitic relationship. But in that wealth transfer over time, various segments of society not only lost wealth (forced State taxation) but then were denied market entry in order to create new wealth to replace the losted. At first it was the so-called poor or the margins of society and now it's doing the same to the backbone of free society, the middle class which makes up the foundation of individual business ventures. In order to keep the game going, the State is now stealing from the future to inject marginal help but not enough so that the slaves will still work the plantation fields.

The stronger a free market, the larger and more dynamic is this middle class and the less restrictive and burdensome on the poor itself who can then market their own skills and ideas with much less barriers to market entry. This is another reason I'm against legal tender laws as each market player should be able to decide the means and manner of the monetary unit to be used and it denies some so-called benevolent player from monopolizing any market medium of exchange and then using that monopoly to deploy unfair market advantage by means of state protections.

Segregation laws themselves were free market violations as it forbade both sides of a market exchange from interacting if they found such exchange was beneficial to both. Immigration laws, like segregation laws, are also free market violations in that they bar an employer and potential employee from a market transaction all because of a state created status and not a status found in natural law but in today's political/social climate to even suggest such truths is to find one's self labeled a heretic. Considering the one's doing the screaming, I find that term very comforting!


As horrible and tragic as this BP event is, if one dares, it does offer many great philosophical lessons to be learned and questions about what we should do and how we move forward on so many different levels but then again, we can all just watch Fox, CNN, MSNBC, get our marching orders and then go into the fields and always pick someone else's cotton and then pray they give us enough in return to get by or don't work against us when we get what our laboring has earned!


jmo

 

[klein]

I think the granny's just have nothing better to do.
They are the ones that drove the big gas guzzlers. Hell, one of the grannies, even sung out of her pick up truck !!!!

wkmac. Yes, you are right with remote controlled devices, that will shut, the shut off valve.
That device is not mandatory currently in the US. Most other countries it is mandatory.

However, in this case, after watching 60minutes last week, or the one before. It looks like the shut off valve was damaged during a test.
So, even a remote device couldn't have made it work.
And they still kept drilling, regardless.

Otherwise BP would have spent too many dollars, putting the drilling on halt, and fixing the shut-off valve, and also a backflow valve that was damaged.
The faulty backflow valve was the cause of the explosion in the first place. Since gas was able to flow thru it, and rise up to the rig, causing the explosion.

BP made a few dangerous shortcuts and didn't follow proper safety methods, either. All to save a few bucks !!

Thats the problem with free market. It's all about the money.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if every offshore rig has a government appointed inspector on every rig in the near future.

 

[moreluck]

I remember reading/hearing about that collar too......BP didn't have it and they received a safety award from Brack....go figure !!

 

[diesel96]

Segregation laws themselves were free market violations as it forbade both sides of a market exchange from interacting if they found such exchange was beneficial to both. Immigration laws, like segregation laws, are also free market violations in that they bar an employer and potential employee from a market transaction all because of a state created status and not a status found in natural law but in today's political/social climate to even suggest such truths is to find one's self labeled a heretic. Considering the one's doing the screaming, I find that term very comforting!



jmo

If you were a white, land owning male, sure. Most people aren't. Women couldn't vote, blacks were enslaved a good part of the time, elderly, essentially lived in poverty/low fixed incomes. By what standard did things "work pretty well?" I beg to differ the point that the market would have effectively ended segregation in the South in any reasonable timeframe. With a majority (whites) having the power to control all levers of power, the government became an enforcer of segregation. Perhaps black people, and those sympathetic, not shopping at stores makes them lose money, but the white owner who SELLS to black people in Alabama in 1950 would lose the business of racist whites - undoubtedly more wealthy than their black neighbors. In this case, the free market would actually perpetuate racist tendencies. At look at the institution of slavery itself. The anti-bellum south was about as "free market" as any place or time in our history - with obviously tragic results. Perhaps I appear to be mixed up with my conclusions to you, but perhaps thats the way I perfer it, a mixed up of free market and state society. The ongoing, neverending debate being, what's that perfect balance/mix to achieve utopia ?..

 

[moreluck]

"Affirmative action has no place in our institutions of higher learning. Treating applicants differently on the basis of race discriminates on the basis of outer characteristics instead of considering inner abilities. As African-American radio talk show host Larry Elder states, "Affirmative action--preference based on race--is morally bankrupt and makes a mockery of merit." I too find it appalling that, in a nation in which we claim all people are created equal, we regularly and legally discriminate on the basis of skin color. "

entire article...http://www.americanpopularculture.com/archive/politics/no_affirmative_action.htm

 

[moreluck]

Look for Larry Elder's views on affirmative action too.....

 

[diesel96]

I think the granny's just have nothing better to do.
They are the ones that drove the big gas guzzlers. Hell, one of the grannies, even sung out of her pick up truck !!!!
.

Klein, if I'm not mistaken, you have enjoyed yourself on our coastal beaches on many occasions. We have put up with pasty white Canadiens in speedos and benefited economically from the residents of the Great White North. But one issue we can't put up with (including raging Grannies) is our coastline, coral reefs, and eco system potenially on the verge of being destroyed. These Granny demonstrations, whether they are licsensed to drive or not, are mild compared to the storm of rage about to be unleashed if the Fl Keys, our coral reefs system (the third largest in the world) and the East coast beaches are affected. It's bad enough La, Miss, Ala, and Fl Panhandle are in dire trouble as is the entire Gulf of Mexico. But to say these retirees have nothing better to do is disengenius. What should they being doing, playing bridge, bingo and marhjong indoors all day at the Senior centers ?????....

 

[soberups]

I'm seeing a lot of finger-pointing and playing the "blame game" concerning what has turned into the worst enviormental disaster since the Exxon Valdez incident.

When are we as a society going to look in the mirror and accept the fact that we all bear some level of responsibility for this?

BP was drilling for oil in 5,000 feet of water in order to meet a demand for a product. Instead of pointing fingers, perhaps we should be asking "why in the hell should anyone be drilling that deep in the first place?"

If everyone in our society commuted in a vehicle that got 50 or 60+ MPG, or that used biodiesel, or hydrogen, or batteries...or if they used mass transit, or rode bikes...would we even need to drill for oil that deep?

I'm not trying to sound self-righteous, but I commute to work in a 2006 VW Jetta turbo diesel that gets almost 40MPG on biodiesel, which is made right here in Oregon from recycled cooking oil and locally grown canola. Biodiesel can be made from any variety of crops including hemp, canola, rapeseed or even algae. And the cars that use it can be fast, comfortable and powerful. Its not science fiction, or unproven technology...its real.

And yes, I also own a gas hog. I have a '76 Chevy 4x4 pickup with a V-8 that gets about 8MPG....on the rare occasions wehn I actually need to use it. I drove it less than 500 miles last year, and the rest of the time it sat.

I see too many people commuting to work by themselves in SUV's. Newsflash, people; you dont need a 250 horsepower V-8 to get to work or take 3 kids to a soccer game.

I agree that BP needs to step up and fix this....and I accept that for the very near future we are still going to be a fossil-fuel driven society. But I hope this serves as a wakeup call to people that we all share the blame for what happened in the Gulf.

 

[klein]

what has turned into the worst enviormental disaster since the Exxon Valdez incident.

Haven't you heard the newest news, since yesterday ? It's larger and worse then the Exxon Valdez.
Those 5000 gallons figures were wrong. It's 12000 to 20000 barrels per day.
Meaning the oil spill sofar in the Gulf has already exceeded the Valdez spill.

And, yes, I agree with you. Driving around big pick-up trucks or large SUV's, mostly just to go to work isn't neccesary.
Ever been to Europe ? You won't see a pickup truck there. Mostly just small 4cyl cars, and many running on diesel.
Their public transport is so superb, that even car owners prefer taking transit to work.
From point A to point B, anywhere in the city is usually under 15minutes. Much faster then any vehicle on wheels.
The innercity trains (SBahn) have a speed up to 200km per hr, which links to fast speed road trains going along city roads (used to be the slower street-cars, which they replaced with new tracks, and faster trains).

Plus they have the highspeed Intercity Rail system that connects each European city to another. (You won't see a Greyhound bus, there).

There is really no need to have your own vehicle there. And if a family does have one, it's the only 1 vehicle in the household.
North America has a lot to catch up upon regarding public transportation !

 

[rod]

what has turned into the worst enviormental disaster since the Exxon Valdez incident.

Haven't you heard the newest news, since yesterday ? It's larger and worse then the Exxon Valdez.
Those 5000 gallons figures were wrong. It's 12000 to 20000 barrels per day.
Meaning the oil spill sofar in the Gulf has already exceeded the Valdez spill.

And, yes, I agree with you. Driving around big pick-up trucks or large SUV's, mostly just to go to work isn't neccesary.
Ever been to Europe ? You won't see a pickup truck there. Mostly just small 4cyl cars, and many running on diesel.
Their public transport is so superb, that even car owners prefer taking transit to work.
From point A to point B, anywhere in the city is usually under 15minutes. Much faster then any vehicle on wheels.
The innercity trains (SBahn) have a speed up to 200km per hr, which links to fast speed road trains going along city roads (used to be the slower street-cars, which they replaced with new tracks, and faster trains).

Plus they have the highspeed Intercity Rail system that connects each European city to another. (You won't see a Greyhound bus, there).

There is really no need to have your own vehicle there. And if a family does have one, it's the only 1 vehicle in the household.
North America has a lot to catch up upon regarding public transportation !

We aren't that smart here in the US----we ripped up all our railroad tracks years ago and turned the old railroad grades into hiking and biking trails for a few dozen yuppies to use. Same with all the old trolly car rail lines in almost every city. Ripped up all those tracks and replaced the electric trollies with stinky diesel buses. No body can accuse us of being too smart when it comes to mass transit.

 

[moreluck]

Mass transit, what's that ???

 

[Lue C Fur]

BP Set to Announce Failure of 'Top Kill' Procedure

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/29/bp-says-latest-effort-plug-leak-succeeded-mulling-options/

"Daddy, did you plug the hole yet?"

"Not yet honey, we have to enjoy our vacation first and i got to play some golf".

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Mass transit, what's that ???

Whenever I go to Boston or NYC I leave my car (cah) at the hotel and ride the subway (T). It is so much more convenient.

 

[moreluck]

I saw a cab in Orange County once !