Pending Arbitration case-Really Insubordination?

[ryredner]

Where in "Northern, Ca"?

The failure to provide a steward when one was requested ought itself be enough to dispose of the insubordination allegation.

What level referred you to arbitration?

 

[ryredner]

EUREKA

 

[ryredner]

You will be fine!We just had an arbitration ruling were a driver called back to the center and said he was sick. The center manager told him to continue working. After talking with his doctor the driver called back again and was told to continue working. At this point the driver brought his truck back and was heading to the hospital. The center manager wanted him to take a fitness for duty. The driver wanted to go to his doctor first. Ups fired him! Now ups is back paying him in full for all time lost!

 

[ryredner]

I would be interested to know the name of this case. Who could i contact regarding this? The lawyers will use other arbitration cases in court to help make their case for their side. This one would be huge for me. It sounds pretty similiar.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Trick, most supes are not specialists. They're GPs. They render expert medical opinions on the whole range of conditions, often without even doing and exam, running tests, or taking x-rays. Some also diagnose over the phone; a skill even real doctors don't claim to have.

You'd better talk to my on-road, Jon, I believe he thinks he's a proctologist. I mean, he's always up my ---!

Hey ry, if you hit the quote button, and then type your response in that window after the last word, quote, it will appear as this quote. Just trying to save you some steps. Hope your case plays out in your favor.

 

[gandydancer]

Went to panel hearing & they deadlocked! All the company voted for the company, and all the union for me. They thought it was huge that i didn't have union rep when they discharged me, but the company states they didn't have to. In my discharge letter i received from ups, it said that a lower seniority driver who overheard the conversation was union representation.

"ARTICLE 4. STEWARDS

...
Recognizing the importance of the role of the Union Steward in resolving problems or disputes between the Employer and its employees, the Employer reaffirms its commitment to the active involvement of union stewards in such processes in accordance with the terms of this Article.

... The Employer recognizes the employee's right to be given requested representation by a Steward, or the designated alternate, at such time as the employee reasonably contemplates disciplinary action. ... When requested by the Union or the employee, there shall be a steward present whenever the Employer meets with an employee concerning grievances or discipline ... In such cases, the meeting shall not be continued until the steward or alternate steward is present."

A junior driver is neither a steward nor a designated alternate. My Secty-Treas (Local 278) has told me that it's not insubordination unless you refuse twice to work as directed in the presence of a steward.

You're going to arbitration after deadlock at first level panel?

Anyway, with your doc saying you were unable to work I'd think it was a slam dunk for you. Any disagreement from company doctors?

 

[dilligaf]

Hey Ry,

a couple of things

1. They cannot refuse you a steward. It is called Wiengarten Rights. It is federal law. If they try this you tell them, "I have asked for a steward. You are refusing me a steward. Your are in violation of federal law. Until I have a steward present this conversation is over." And you walk away. They may try disciplinary action but it will not hold up.

2. I see that you are replying to posts by clicking on the reply and then starting a whole new post. You don't have to do that. When you click on reply at the end of the post that you wish to reply to [ ] start typing after. Like my highlited part. Make sense?

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Hey Ry,

a couple of things

1. They cannot refuse you a steward. It is called Wiengarten Rights. It is federal law. If they try this you tell them, "I have asked for a steward. You are refusing me a steward. Your are in violation of federal law. Until I have a steward present this conversation is over." And you walk away. They may try disciplinary action but it will not hold up.

2. I see that you are replying to posts by clicking on the reply and then starting a whole new post. You don't have to do that. When you click on reply at the end of the post that you wish to reply to [ ] start typing after. Like my highlited part. Make sense?

Um, what's a post?

 

[705red]

I would be interested to know the name of this case. Who could i contact regarding this? The lawyers will use other arbitration cases in court to help make their case for their side. This one would be huge for me. It sounds pretty similiar.

Have your agent call our local and request a copy of the arbitration summary. I will try and remember to grab a copy sunday when im there and maybe i can mail it to you.

 

[ryredner]

"ARTICLE 4. STEWARDS

...
Recognizing the importance of the role of the Union Steward in resolving problems or disputes between the Employer and its employees, the Employer reaffirms its commitment to the active involvement of union stewards in such processes in accordance with the terms of this Article.

... The Employer recognizes the employee's right to be given requested representation by a Steward, or the designated alternate, at such time as the employee reasonably contemplates disciplinary action. ... When requested by the Union or the employee, there shall be a steward present whenever the Employer meets with an employee concerning grievances or discipline ... In such cases, the meeting shall not be continued until the steward or alternate steward is present."

A junior driver is neither a steward nor a designated alternate. My Secty-Treas (Local 278) has told me that it's not insubordination unless you refuse twice to work as directed in the presence of a steward.

You're going to arbitration after deadlock at first level panel?

Anyway, with your doc saying you were unable to work I'd think it was a slam dunk for you. Any disagreement from company doctors?

Their saying the designated alternate is the junior driver, who admits he know nothing about the contract. He says he will testify on my behalf, especially Re:knee. They never had me examined by their doctor, just discharged me. They just discharged another employee down there. They wanted to drug test him. He works pre-load. He requested a shop-steward or a union rep before going to the doctor. The boss denied him and told him "too bad your going". He is also on a non-working discharge. I guess UPS is letting him get away with it.

 

[dilligaf]

Their saying the designated alternate is the junior driver, who admits he know nothing about the contract. He says he will testify on my behalf, especially Re:knee. They never had me examined by their doctor, just discharged me. They just discharged another employee down there. They wanted to drug test him. He works pre-load. He requested a shop-steward or a union rep before going to the doctor. The boss denied him and told him "too bad your going". He is also on a non-working discharge. I guess UPS is letting him get away with it.

You did that perfect Ry.

 

[dilligaf]

Um, what's a post?

smartazz

 

[gandydancer]

Their saying the designated alternate is the junior driver...

Again, "ARTICLE 4. STEWARDS
The Employer recognizes the right OF THE LOCAL UNION to designate Job Stewards and alternates from the Employer's seniority list..." The "junior driver" can't be designated an Alternate Steward by UPS. If you're for real then the management in Eureka are total dumbasses. I mean, management at UPS often is, but this is beyond the usual. Are you just making this up?

 

[PobreCarlos]

dilligaf;

I thought "Weingarten rights" referenced only the right of an employee to have representation present during QUESTIONING that could lead (or, rather, that the employee has a reasonable suspicion might lead to) discipline, as opposed to the actual administration of discipline itself. Anyway, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in "Weingarten" that limits an employer administering discipline (say termination) to an employee absent such questioning; instead, that's simply a function of management, as far as labor law is concerned.

Now contractual obligations (i.e. - outside of Weingarten) may be a different story.

 

[JonFrum]

ProbreCarlos, you are correct.

But it's always good advice to ask for a Steward because you never know for sure where the conversation will go. A Steward also acts as an experienced witness, and can keep you from saying anything or doing anything that would make the situation worse. If Management refuses you a Steward, that makes them look bad in the eyes of a future panel or Arbitrator. Finally, even if the sole purpose of the meeting is to fire you, you don't necessarily know that at the time they call you into the office. You can reasonable be thinking "oh-oh, this can't be good" without actually knowing what they have in store for you. It's a grey area.

- - - -

By the way, a fellow employee is mearly a witness, and not necessarily a good one, not an Alternate Steward. Only the Union can designate Alternate Stewards, and only Stewards and Alternates have the experience and authority to represent you properly. (Not that all do, of course.) A fellow employee will probably just sit there, or feel obligated to be neutral, or feel obliged to lean toward Management because they selected him.

 

[helenofcalifornia]

Glad I don't work in Eureka. Good luck Ry. Red, Jon Frum, Dill and Gandy know their stuff. From all this new information, I hope you rest a little easier. Let's hear it for a large back paycheck!!

 

[local804]

Was there any other charges of progressive discipline on insubordination in the past 9 months? The past 2 years? I am just a little curious what your past track record has been. I know that people that are out on comp here come back with a "repeater" title and get some special attention.They are watched with for 1 year with a few tests and observed once a month from the center team to make sure your working properly. I dont understand how a guy with 20 years that goes out on comp one time is called a repeater but thats not my problem.
I am just curious why progressive discipline wasnt used and why they opted to go the full mile after one incident. I myself, would have did the work after they used that word and handled matters after that. If you got re injured after the work, file an injury report after the fact. If you start the work and cant finish, pick up the phone and have a supervisor come pick your ass up because you cant drive or use the clutch. UPS has a very big gun with no bullets and they like to show it alot. Do yourself a favor and DO NOT give them bullets for the gun because they dont think twice about firing it.

 

[dilligaf]

dilligaf;

I thought "Weingarten rights" referenced only the right of an employee to have representation present during QUESTIONING that could lead (or, rather, that the employee has a reasonable suspicion might lead to) discipline, as opposed to the actual administration of discipline itself. Anyway, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in "Weingarten" that limits an employer administering discipline (say termination) to an employee absent such questioning; instead, that's simply a function of management, as far as labor law is concerned.

Now contractual obligations (i.e. - outside of Weingarten) may be a different story.

True. Jon put it well and I will add, the company should be asking questions before handing out discipline. We know this doesn't always happen but it should. From the company's stand point it only weakens their case when they don't investigate and just had out discipline arbitrarily.


Always ask, when you are called into a meeting with mgt, "Can this conversation lead to disciplinary action?" If they say "no" and it does then you have them by the short hairs. If they say "yes" then you ask for a steward. If they deny you then you have them by the short hairs.

 

[PobreCarlos]

dillgaf;

Sorry, but I don't believe that simply holding a "conversation" alone is justification under Weingarten; rather it has to do with actual questioning of the employee in order to obtain information from him that could reasonably be assumed to lead to discipline. Nor can I see that the question you postulated (and/or mgmt's answer to it) would have any relevance; the fact is, mgmt is not (by law, at least...local contract obligations may vary) required to allow an employee to have representation present simply because they intend to have a simple conversation with him, nor to administer discipline. And, if truth be told, an employee demanding representation in such a situation (refusing a non-interrogatory meeting, for example), could quickly evolve into a case of insubordination...and suddenly there's an entirely different set of "short hairs" being pulled..

I'm mentioning this, because "Weingartern" seems to be an area of law in which employees entertain a lot of bad assumptions...assumptions which could get them in trouble, if depended upon.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Was there any other charges of progressive discipline on insubordination in the past 9 months? The past 2 years? I am just a little curious what your past track record has been. I know that people that are out on comp here come back with a "repeater" title and get some special attention.They are watched with for 1 year with a few tests and observed once a month from the center team to make sure your working properly. I dont understand how a guy with 20 years that goes out on comp one time is called a repeater but thats not my problem.
I am just curious why progressive discipline wasnt used and why they opted to go the full mile after one incident. I myself, would have did the work after they used that word and handled matters after that. If you got re injured after the work, file an injury report after the fact. If you start the work and cant finish, pick up the phone and have a supervisor come pick your ass up because you cant drive or use the clutch. UPS has a very big gun with no bullets and they like to show it alot. Do yourself a favor and DO NOT give them bullets for the gun because they dont think twice about firing it.

Hope you don't mind me copying and pasting this into the wisdom and knowledge thread. This is something that all UPS'ers should know. Thanks, 804!