Republicans war on unions marches forward

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Blah, blah, blah KILL UNIONS, blah, blah, blah, DECREASE WAGES, blah, blah, blah, CREATE MORE CRUMMY JOBS.

LOL!! Your type kills me! Michiganders have more experience in making cars than any state in the union, but the industry has all but deserted them for more competitive patches of real estate. The dummies took to the streets demanding to stay less competitive. If they had their way, they wouldn't have any jobs at all.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Yep, and workers in those plants make about half of what a union worker would. RTW creates RTW companies like FedEx, where the employer holds all the cards and the employees have no bargaining power to increase their wages. Good for the company, bad for the workers. The old habits of the North are union labor and high wages.

Mr. Genius, why oh why do all of those auto plants locate in the South and Mid-South? It's because all of the advantages go to them in a RTW state, and like I said before, in many cases, each of the jobs created costs more than it is worth. If BMW, Nissan, and the rest didn't have a fistful of breaks, they'd have never moved here. Maybe they need to pull their own weight, pay what they should in property and other taxes, and do business on alevel playing field?


Businesses don't pay taxes ... the consumers that buy their products pay the taxes.
That is one of the key reasons the US has a poor trade imbalance.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Okay, other than bugs, humidity and hot summers, what's not to like?

Many businesses are moving to the South because of more productive and happier workers, good weather, less upkeep on facilities and vehicles, less taxes, less regulation, etc

What can you add to the two points above?

Lots of really fat, unhealthy people. I don't know how much of it can be blamed on culture or how much is to be blamed on a social benefits system that enables them to get, and remain, that way. Bad drivers. Country music. Rap music. Lots of backwater towns. Lots of backwater mentality here and there. I'll have to make a list :)
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Sure. Snyder will offer tax breaks and land deals to attract the fat cats who helped put him into office. They will pay sub-standard wages, which is they put Snyder into office. Perhaps Mr. Snyder has invested in some worthless land which will now get freeway on and off-ramps and become a new assembly location for a foreign vehicle manufacturer.

Republicans are so corrupt.

If substandard is not paying $40hr or whatever the going rate is these days I'm sure there will still be plenty of takers. Geez, look at what Ground pays and they find willing people. How can you defend the status quo when Detroit looks like a disaster area?
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Yep, and workers in those plants make about half of what a union worker would. RTW creates RTW companies like FedEx, where the employer holds all the cards and the employees have no bargaining power to increase their wages. Good for the company, bad for the workers. The old habits of the North are union labor and high wages.

You're working from an assumption that were it not for those states, those jobs would be union jobs. It is more likely that a good number of those plants would be built in Mexico were there not RTW alternatives in the United States. Estimates are that the cost of UAW labor adds approximately $2000 to the price of a new domestically assembled car, but no additional value.

I still don't know what you're complaining about. The cost of living in most of the south is a steal. The "low paying jobs" that you're complaining about will provide for a very nice standard of living here that rivals (if not exceeds) what you'd get from a union job in the Detroit area.

Mr. Genius, why oh why do all of those auto plants locate in the South and Mid-South? It's because all of the advantages go to them in a RTW state, and like I said before, in many cases, each of the jobs created costs more than it is worth. If BMW, Nissan, and the rest didn't have a fistful of breaks, they'd have never moved here.

Let's educate a dummy. Most of the tax breaks are abatements on property taxes in which the company pays property taxes on the value of the undeveloped property for several years and gradually (or all at once, depending on the agreement) starts paying on the fully developed value of the land. Some agreements provide for paying money for initial worker training.

In return, these companies provide plants that cost as much as $1 billion to build. So hundreds of construction workers build the plant and earn money that they use to buy things and pay taxes. Then the plant opens and employs a couple thousand people who earn money that they use to buy things and pay taxes. Most of us can do math and realize that the tax abatements cost the government little if anything. We can also figure out that outlays providing for some worker training can be recouped in a relatively short period of time. There may be some infrastructure improvements, but those costs can also be recouped relatively quickly. Everything beyond that is gravy.

A plant that employs 2000 and pays an average wage of $15/hour will have an annual payroll of over $60,000,000/year. I can imagine you in a position of leadership saying that you don't want to pay a pittance for an extra $60 million in economic activity in your town. And that doesn't include the satellite economic activity generated by that plant.

Maybe they need to pull their own weight, pay what they should in property and other taxes, and do business on alevel playing field?

The level playing field that gets you billions in federal money?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I still don't know what you're complaining about. The cost of living in most of the south is a steal. The "low paying jobs" that you're complaining about will provide for a very nice standard of living here that rivals (if not exceeds) what you'd get from a union job in the Detroit area.

OK, you mentioned $15hr later in this post. $15hr doesn't rival $40hr(or more) in Detroit. Certainly doesn't exceed it. Until peak hit I was bringing home $565-$575 a week. More than $15hr will bring. I'm certainly not living high on the hog. Furthermore the limits of our healthcare plan is requiring me to spend much of what's left on medical costs. You can get by on $15hr, but I have to agree with MFE that most people are looking to make a living that will provide a few things. I don't think we're all owed $80k a year but $32k a year makes it very difficult to take care of our families. $15hr in Montgomery, Alabama is probably closer to $18hr in Detroit. Or less.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
When my daughter son-in-law lived in North Carolina they had a beautiful 3 bedroom apartment which they rented for $800/month. The same apartment would rent for at least $1,200/month here and closer to $2K/month near the major metro areas.

I applaud the RTW vote in Michigan as it will help to bring an economic revitalization to the area.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
When my daughter son-in-law lived in North Carolina they had a beautiful 3 bedroom apartment which they rented for $800/month. The same apartment would rent for at least $1,200/month here and closer to $2K/month near the major metro areas.

I applaud the RTW vote in Michigan as it will help to bring an economic revitalization to the area.

$15hr would gross $2400 a month before taxes on 40 hrs a week. If both of them worked they could afford an $800 a month apt. assuming they both made a decent wage. I think the RTW vote is a good thing, but not an excuse to pay much lower wages.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
$15hr would gross $2400 a month before taxes on 40 hrs a week. If both of them worked they could afford an $800 a month apt. assuming they both made a decent wage. I think the RTW vote is a good thing, but not an excuse to pay much lower wages.

$15/hr in the South would equate to $25/hr (or more) here.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
If substandard is not paying $40hr or whatever the going rate is these days I'm sure there will still be plenty of takers. Geez, look at what Ground pays and they find willing people. How can you defend the status quo when Detroit looks like a disaster area?

The bar just keeps getting lower.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
You're working from an assumption that were it not for those states, those jobs would be union jobs. It is more likely that a good number of those plants would be built in Mexico were there not RTW alternatives in the United States. Estimates are that the cost of UAW labor adds approximately $2000 to the price of a new domestically assembled car, but no additional value.

I still don't know what you're complaining about. The cost of living in most of the south is a steal. The "low paying jobs" that you're complaining about will provide for a very nice standard of living here that rivals (if not exceeds) what you'd get from a union job in the Detroit area.



Let's educate a dummy. Most of the tax breaks are abatements on property taxes in which the company pays property taxes on the value of the undeveloped property for several years and gradually (or all at once, depending on the agreement) starts paying on the fully developed value of the land. Some agreements provide for paying money for initial worker training.

In return, these companies provide plants that cost as much as $1 billion to build. So hundreds of construction workers build the plant and earn money that they use to buy things and pay taxes. Then the plant opens and employs a couple thousand people who earn money that they use to buy things and pay taxes. Most of us can do math and realize that the tax abatements cost the government little if anything. We can also figure out that outlays providing for some worker training can be recouped in a relatively short period of time. There may be some infrastructure improvements, but those costs can also be recouped relatively quickly. Everything beyond that is gravy.

A plant that employs 2000 and pays an average wage of $15/hour will have an annual payroll of over $60,000,000/year. I can imagine you in a position of leadership saying that you don't want to pay a pittance for an extra $60 million in economic activity in your town. And that doesn't include the satellite economic activity generated by that plant.



The level playing field that gets you billions in federal money?

Let me educate a real dummy. By catering to Big Business and giving them the RTW gift, perhaps there will be a rise in relatively low-paying jobs that aren't really middle class. The "gravy" all goes to the businesses who locate there. They either get the land for nothing or very little, and then the taxpayer pays for the infrastructure that will serve the plant...off-ramps, transit lines, etc. By the time the plant finally opens, each of the jobs created actually cost taxpayers a bundle.

I live quite close to a huge manufacturer that employs over 150,000 people locally, and they've been in existence since the early 1900's. They still get huge tax breaks, and don't have to pay anything but a small portion of the environmental damage they have caused, which has cost billions to clean-up and is still ongoing. The Federal Government is picking up the tab because this ultra-profitable company threatens to relocate to the Mid-South if they don't get their way.

Whenever they introduce a new product line, they blackmail the state government into new perks lest they relocate that product line elsewhere. State politicians inevitably cave and the company gets it's way.

I'm glad you'd be happy at a career that pays $15 per hour. And yes, I've been to the South and seen how you can get a house for far less money than in most parts of the country. I've seen the mini-mansions in Collierville and Germantown that would cost 2-3 times that much in California, for instance. The great thing for companies though is that they get to create new equivalents of FedEx Express, where the workers are "at-will" employees and the company holds all the cards. Just like FedEx, crummy retirement plans and oppressive work rules are the order of the day. And with RTW, anyone who wants to organize can be targeted and eliminated, just like at FedEx, because there is no union to protect your job or guarantee some decent level of employee rights.

Sure, unions sometimes protect workers that should be fired...that's a given. But, overall, union workers produce a better product and have higher levels of productivity than their non-union counterparts. Just ask anyone in the construction trade "who gets the job done right---the first time", and they will say "union workers". I have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company that builds universities, hospitals, schools etc. They only use union labor, because they have learned the hard way that having to re-work a project is far more costly than doing it right the first time.

RTW also lowers the bar..for everyone but Big Business. Maybe Billy Bob in Smyrna was able to move out of his single-wide because he got a job at the Nissan plant for $15 per hour. But that's about all that Billy Bob is ever going to make, and maybe he's OK with that. It's like FedEx, where our wages never keep pace with inflation any more. We go backwards every year, and have been for many years, and that's fine with Fred, because he not only saves and makes more money, but he gets to slap a new layer of rules on us continually...and we have no choice but to accept them, or leave.

Republicans and Libertarians are always crowing about "freedom", "self-reliance", and "exceptonalism", and then they support policies like RTW, which create mediocrity and jobs that go nowhere. Sure, maybe Billy Bob will get his AA from the local JC and become a foreman, but probably not. He'll work there for 30 years and then retire with his puny annuity...back to the single-wide from which he came.

The GOP is nothing but a front for Big Business, a clearing house for putting Republican policies into action. Snyder, Scott, Walker, and the rest are nothing but operatives for Big Business, who put them into office and will take care of them when they leave. That isn't the way our government is supposed to operate, is it? Is that freedom? No. it isn't. It's a corporatocracy, which you dummies interpret as "freedom" and representative democracy. The only thing really getting represented is business, not the people.

You're too dumb to see it.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Self-education is an admirable goal.


Let me educate you too. The larger issue for Republicans is killing-off unions by drying-up funding. RTW accomplishes this. Also, maybe $15 per hour isn't so bad in Arkansas or Tennessee. But that same company is going to pay that same wage at it's facility in CA or New York. Not so good.

As you keep lowering the bar and aiming for the bottom, you're actually undercutting your own job in the process. If FedEx Ground, for example, takes enough market share from UPS, Big Brown won't be able to afford the high wages that it pays. There won't be enough profit to pay for it.

Of course, this is the beauty of your "free market" at-work, right? Eventually, in the race for the bottom, we'll get there, and UPS will fill your cubicle with someone cheaper. Same for the package car drivers. That would be great, huh.

Conservatives only think short-term profit, not long-term consequences. That's why they are ignorant.
 

purplesky

Well-Known Member
Let me educate a real dummy. By catering to Big Business and giving them the RTW gift, perhaps there will be a rise in relatively low-paying jobs that aren't really middle class. The "gravy" all goes to the businesses who locate there. They either get the land for nothing or very little, and then the taxpayer pays for the infrastructure that will serve the plant...off-ramps, transit lines, etc. By the time the plant finally opens, each of the jobs created actually cost taxpayers a bundle.

I live quite close to a huge manufacturer that employs over 150,000 people locally, and they've been in existence since the early 1900's. They still get huge tax breaks, and don't have to pay anything but a small portion of the environmental damage they have caused, which has cost billions to clean-up and is still ongoing. The Federal Government is picking up the tab because this ultra-profitable company threatens to relocate to the Mid-South if they don't get their way.

Whenever they introduce a new product line, they blackmail the state government into new perks lest they relocate that product line elsewhere. State politicians inevitably cave and the company gets it's way.

I'm glad you'd be happy at a career that pays $15 per hour. And yes, I've been to the South and seen how you can get a house for far less money than in most parts of the country. I've seen the mini-mansions in Collierville and Germantown that would cost 2-3 times that much in California, for instance. The great thing for companies though is that they get to create new equivalents of FedEx Express, where the workers are "at-will" employees and the company holds all the cards. Just like FedEx, crummy retirement plans and oppressive work rules are the order of the day. And with RTW, anyone who wants to organize can be targeted and eliminated, just like at FedEx, because there is no union to protect your job or guarantee some decent level of employee rights.

Sure, unions sometimes protect workers that should be fired...that's a given. But, overall, union workers produce a better product and have higher levels of productivity than their non-union counterparts. Just ask anyone in the construction trade "who gets the job done right---the first time", and they will say "union workers". I have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company that builds universities, hospitals, schools etc. They only use union labor, because they have learned the hard way that having to re-work a project is far more costly than doing it right the first time.

RTW also lowers the bar..for everyone but Big Business. Maybe Billy Bob in Smyrna was able to move out of his single-wide because he got a job at the Nissan plant for $15 per hour. But that's about all that Billy Bob is ever going to make, and maybe he's OK with that. It's like FedEx, where our wages never keep pace with inflation any more. We go backwards every year, and have been for many years, and that's fine with Fred, because he not only saves and makes more money, but he gets to slap a new layer of rules on us continually...and we have no choice but to accept them, or leave.

Republicans and Libertarians are always crowing about "freedom", "self-reliance", and "exceptonalism", and then they support policies like RTW, which create mediocrity and jobs that go nowhere. Sure, maybe Billy Bob will get his AA from the local JC and become a foreman, but probably not. He'll work there for 30 years and then retire with his puny annuity...back to the single-wide from which he came.

The GOP is nothing but a front for Big Business, a clearing house for putting Republican policies into action. Snyder, Scott, Walker, and the rest are nothing but operatives for Big Business, who put them into office and will take care of them when they leave. That isn't the way our government is supposed to operate, is it? Is that freedom? No. it isn't. It's a corporatocracy, which you dummies interpret as "freedom" and representative democracy. The only thing really getting represented is business, not the people.

You're too dumb to see it.

IT IS CALLED CORPORATE CAPITOLISM. CORPORATIONS RUN THE WORLD. NOT PEOPLE. The Wingnuts just dont get it. They just watch FOX NEWS AND LISTEN TO RUSH AND BEND OVER!
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
When my daughter son-in-law lived in North Carolina they had a beautiful 3 bedroom apartment which they rented for $800/month. The same apartment would rent for at least $1,200/month here and closer to $2K/month near the major metro areas.

I applaud the RTW vote in Michigan as it will help to bring an economic revitalization to the area.

Maybe NY will go RTW and you won't have to pay your union dues. Next contract, you get $15 per hour. You're usually smarter than what you just wrote.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
Maybe NY will go RTW and you won't have to pay your union dues. Next contract, you get $15 per hour. You're usually smarter than what you just wrote.

Which part? Our contract is a national one and covers those in RTW states and states with closed shops, such as New York. I never said that I would withdraw from the union if NY became the next RTW state--I appreciate all that they do and would not feel right taking advantage of the union benefits without paying my fair share.

Look at the RTW states in the South and the economic revitalization they are experiencing as a result. Auto and aerospace companies, just to name a few, have either added or moved their entire operations to these states. This is a smart move on their part and a win for the communities they choose to move to.

You will see a two-tiered FT driver wage in either the 2013 or 2018 contract. You will also either see UPSers paying for a portion of their healthcare of sacrificing raises in lieu of doing so. The economic reality is that competition from Ground will force the company and union to rethink their current positions and future UPSers will work for a far different company than the one that we know today.

I would love to see NY go RTW.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Which part? Our contract is a national one and covers those in RTW states and states with closed shops, such as New York. I never said that I would withdraw from the union if NY became the next RTW state--I appreciate all that they do and would not feel right taking advantage of the union benefits without paying my fair share.

Look at the RTW states in the South and the economic revitalization they are experiencing as a result. Auto and aerospace companies, just to name a few, have either added or moved their entire operations to these states. This is a smart move on their part and a win for the communities they choose to move to.

You will see a two-tiered FT driver wage in either the 2013 or 2018 contract. You will also either see UPSers paying for a portion of their healthcare of sacrificing raises in lieu of doing so. The economic reality is that competition from Ground will force the company and union to rethink their current positions and future UPSers will work for a far different company than the one that we know today.

I would love to see NY go RTW.

I guess you educated MrFedEx ... that is an admirable goal.
 
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