Well that's a bonehead move if ever I saw one. The DBPP stopped but it didn't go away. Retiring before May 31, 2008 made no difference to their payout under the DBPP. What it did do is stop them from earning a second pension under the PPP.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
I'm going to assume you're either a UPS employee or a misinformed FedEx employee...
The DBPP stopped for every FedEx employee that was still an employee as of June 1 2008. If one retired on or before May 31 2008 they were covered under the DBPP. If one retired on or after June 1 2008, they were forced into the PPP. An employee doesn't get both. The DBPP is in effect for all those that retired prior to 5/31/08 since the law doesn't permit a company from changing the rules after an employee is a retiree. There is nothing that keeps FedEx from changing the pension plan for active employees. In fact, FedEx includes a little statement in our employee handbooks that states that the pension plan an employee will be covered under ISN"T the plan that was in force the day they hired, it will be the plan that is in force the day they retire.
So if you are a retired FedEx employee that did so years ago and is receiving a pension as defined under the ........DBPP, that is yours to keep. If you are currently working for FedEx, you no longer have a true pension, you have a laughably small lump sum payment amount that you will get when you finally pull the plug on FedEx.
As I stated in another post, those that retire now will get close to what they would've under the DBPP. The longer one works for FedEx, the less and less one will receive under the PPP. In fact, a 25 year old new hire that works 25 years and starts to draw a pension 10 years after that will only receive about one-third as they would've under the DBPP.
I am neither a UPS employee or a misinformed FedEx employee.
In a forum such as this where discussions get heated and misinformation is often out in force, please don't take this as anything other than a respectful request.
Quite simply, you are the one whom is misinformed. Or at the very least you've got some mixed facts. Don't take my word for it but if you take a moment, do some research, ask some questions, you'll be able to verify what I'm telling you.
To clarify: I can't remember the exact date, maybe it was June 1, 2008 but if you are/were hired after that date (whatever it was), you are covered under the PPP. If you were hired before then and had any participation in the DBPP, you absolutely do not lose that and you now have a second pension under the PPP. In other words, yes you definitely get both.
There are so many variables based on age, length of employment, etc., but the simplest example is someone who had 25 years of service prior to the PPP. That person had their max 50% pension and the only way to affect the amount would be to earn more before retirement so that their highest 5 years earnings went up. Once the PPP went into effect, they could no longer influence their highest 5 years, those were now locked in based on the highest 5 during their 25 years. That's a done deal. They get that pension whenever it is they retire. In addition to this, they now start earning a second pension under the PPP. And, yes, they do get both.
Now this is not to say that someone who works for 35 years under the old DBPP would have more or less money than someone who now works 35 years under the PPP. Again, many, many variables with that.
I believe employees just received their pension statements. For anyone that was enrolled in the DBPP, their statement shows not only what their current PPP balance is, but also what their DBPP payment will be.
Lastly, the DBPP was just no longer an option for FedEx. The ERISA act took care of that. Defined benefit plans are pretty much gone throughout the US. When you cannot average out your pension liability over say 30 years or whatever it was and have to fund your plan yearly based on current market conditions, most companies (FedEx included) don't have that type of cash. I realize this might be an oversimplification but it's the essence of why the change from DBPP to PPP.
Quadro,
What you said is correct. I believe that a lot of current employees are still very confused about what they do and do not get in the form of retirement. Please let me try to clarify some differences here.
1st- If you were enrolled in the traditional pension plan, and are still a current employee, once you retire (whenever that is) you will recieve pension payouts from BOTH the traditional plan, and the portable plan (if desired).
2nd- The portable plan was designed to limit the amount of money paid out to employees over the long haul. Once an employee retires, they have the option of taking that specific lump sum of money and moving it into another retirement plan, IRA, CD, or any other investment with no penalty. If they choose a cash payout, then depending on their retirement age 59.5, 60, 62, etc... the amount of the penalty goes down the longer you wait.
3rd-Under the old system, it took 5 years to be vested under the traditional plan, under the new portable plan, it is only 3 years to become vested. This is in the hopes that new individuals when hired, and then either quit after 3 years or retire, take the lump sum payment because it is only a one time payout. It isn't a continual long term financial obligation. This alone saves ole Freddy boy BILLIONS of dollars long term.
4th- Since the company is relatively young, we are one of less than 300 companys nation wide who have a fully funded pension account under the old traditional plan. The main advantage for that here now is that it is only now coming to be that some individuals are beginning to retire. So, all of that money that has been sitting in that account has been gaining interest and virtually pays for itself.
5th- Finally, once an employee retires or quits with the portable plan, the ties are severed with FedEx and there no longer is any conncetion financially. As far as medical goes though, I'm still a bit ignorant on that. If anyone could fill me in I would appreciate it. Hope that this helps all...
What you said is correct. I believe that a lot of current employees are still very confused about what they do and do not get in the form of retirement. Please let me try to clarify some differences here.
1st- If you were enrolled in the traditional pension plan, and are still a current employee, once you retire (whenever that is) you will recieve pension payouts from BOTH the traditional plan, and the portable plan (if desired).
2nd- The portable plan was designed to limit the amount of money paid out to employees over the long haul. Once an employee retires, they have the option of taking that specific lump sum of money and moving it into another retirement plan, IRA, CD, or any other investment with no penalty. If they choose a cash payout, then depending on their retirement age 59.5, 60, 62, etc... the amount of the penalty goes down the longer you wait.
3rd-Under the old system, it took 5 years to be vested under the traditional plan, under the new portable plan, it is only 3 years to become vested. This is in the hopes that new individuals when hired, and then either quit after 3 years or retire, take the lump sum payment because it is only a one time payout. It isn't a continual long term financial obligation. This alone saves ole Freddy boy BILLIONS of dollars long term.
4th- Since the company is relatively young, we are one of less than 300 companys nation wide who have a fully funded pension account under the old traditional plan. The main advantage for that here now is that it is only now coming to be that some individuals are beginning to retire. So, all of that money that has been sitting in that account has been gaining interest and virtually pays for itself.
5th- Finally, once an employee retires or quits with the portable plan, the ties are severed with FedEx and there no longer is any conncetion financially. As far as medical goes though, I'm still a bit ignorant on that. If anyone could fill me in I would appreciate it. Hope that this helps all...
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
OK, here we go. Your traditional FedEx Pension Plan ended 6-1-08. Yes, if you are a long term employee you still get your old traditional payout(meager) and the PPP, which isn't a "pension" at all. To pretend that $70-$120 per month is a bona fide pension is ludicrous.
If you had 25 years of service prior to 6-1-08 you would have maxed-out your traditional plan at 50% (2% per year) already, and then would have the second "plan" as well. But stop acting like this is a double dip and that we're making out like bandits...nothing could be further from the truth. Our payout under the old plan is less than half of what a UPS retiree gets and the PPP is a puny accrual scheme that pays out a small lump sum when you leave FedEx.
Get it right, OK? Don't spread information that is WRONG.
If you had 25 years of service prior to 6-1-08 you would have maxed-out your traditional plan at 50% (2% per year) already, and then would have the second "plan" as well. But stop acting like this is a double dip and that we're making out like bandits...nothing could be further from the truth. Our payout under the old plan is less than half of what a UPS retiree gets and the PPP is a puny accrual scheme that pays out a small lump sum when you leave FedEx.
Get it right, OK? Don't spread information that is WRONG.
FedEx courier
Well-Known Member
I'll be the first to admit that I am one of the uninformed ones. I thought I was just not getting it and then I took some of the pension information given to me to a person who works in finance and he said he believes much of the information is meant so people can't understand it. I certainly hope my first pension still has money in it, but I havn't been sent any balance in a very long time. Wonder why FedEx doesn't explain their complex "pension" system to their employees?
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
Bottom line. Your Traditional (real) Pension Plan ended 6-1-08. It's over, and everyone (except the pilots and the big cheeses) is under the PPP, which isn't a pension plan at all, except perhaps in name only.
You still get whatever you earned under the old plan, and now get a small yearly accrual that will be paid to you as a lump sum when you quit. You also get a tiny monthly payout.That's all the PPP is. Please explain to me how the PPP is actually a pension when only a small group of roaches could live off of what they pay out. The lucky ones are the 25 year people who earned the maximum on the old plan before the PPP kicked-in. Even though it's not very good, at least they will have a decent amount coming to them when they leave.
Let's say you started in June, 2000. You would have 8 years in under the old plan (2% per year, total of 16%). On June 1, 2008, your participation in the old plan ended and you were forced into the PPP. When you retire, you'll get that 16%, and whatever you accrue under the PPP, plus the puny monthly payout. Better line up that job at Wally World when you hit 65.
Here's what Fred did. He took advantage of all of the publicity that the passenger airlines were getting surrounding their elimination of traditional pension plans and did the same to us, because, after all, we're an "airline" (ha ha). The one big difference is that FedEx was extremely profitable when he pulled this off, while the passenger airlines were bankrupt. What a coup for Smith! He saves millions by ending our real pension plan and then substitutes this farce called PPP. The trouble is, most employees don't understand how badly they were screwed on this deal. Pure ignorance.
The plans are fully funded because they are a pittance compared to good retirement packages. They will always be fully funded because it is a drop in the bucket compared to a decent plan (like the one UPS has).
How clear do I have to make this? Fred just did you hard without any lube and you pretend everything is OK? Are most of you really that stupid?
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
To clarify all of the confusion...
Everyone that was vested in the traditional plan as of May 31, 2008 will receive what they would've had they actually terminated their employment with Express on May 31, 2008. That plan ended on May 31, 2008 for everyone though, including all salaried employees excluding senior executives and aircrew under contract.
This means that an employee that had say 17.43 years of service as of that date will receive 17.43 times 2% times the average of the high years of service as a pension at age 60. That is currently locked in - currently. What happened is that everyone was forced into the PPP which only contributes 5% of annual gross into an "account" which FedEx holds and the employee cannot invest on their own. This is the gradual erosion of the pension for all employees that had less than 25 years of service as of May 31, 2008. Every year an employee that has less than 25 years of service as of 5/31/08 stays with FedEx, their "final" pension (DBPP + PPP annuity) will decrease compared to what would've been paid under the DBPP accumulating additional years of service. So that employee that had 17.43 years of service as of 5/31/08 will NOT accumulate additional years of service for calculation of the pension.
If that employee "retires" at 25 years of service, their pension at age 60 will be calculated in 2 parts. The first part will be for those 17.43 years of service times 2% times average of high years - THE HIGH YEARS AT THAT TIME, not the average of high years at the 25 year point. To this 34.86% of the average high at 17.43 years of service, will be added either an annuity from the PPP or a one-time payout to a "retirement" fund of the employee's choice.
Further complicating the issue are the employees that had 25 years + as of 5/31/08. They will receive 50% of the average of high years gross, PLUS whatever they accumulate under the PPP. So for these employee who are "double dipping" they are actually getting a larger benefit.
One might ask why would FedEx allow these employees to double dip. Because the PPP is such a lousy plan, that within a few years FedEx will actually begin to pay out less overall, FedEx will experience a NET savings. That employee that hired in after 5/31/08 and does a 25 year sentence with FedEx will only receive about one-third what they would've received under the the DBPP.
The retirement plan model I constructed a few days ago is good. Those that retired May 31,2008 received full amount under the traditional plan. Since the PPP is only about one-third as "large" as the DBPP, each month an employee continues to work with FedEx, their pension loses ground compared to what they would've received under the DBPP. Those that had more than 25 years when the switch happened actually have incentive to say with FedEx until they can no longer move, since they are accumulating more in the PPP along with their position under the traditional plan (maxed out).
This means that employees that are at the mid point in their "career" are in a bind. They have whatever existed 5/31/08; but they are only accumulating about one-third what would've been accumulated under the old plan. In otherwords, they don't have a pension upon which they can retire on, they have something that will cover utility payments and maybe a little more. Forget about purchasing the FedEx medical coverage for retirees, this would cost more than the "pension" would pay out each month.
This is part of the deliberate and planned narrowing of compensation levels between Express and other FedEx operating companies. It is going to continue. This is why barring the RLA classification being changed (which looks near impossible at this point), all of FedEx wages will begin a narrowing of difference between the operating companies. After all, if Fred can pay a Ground driver $13 an hour to deliver packages, why pay an Express driver $22 and hour plus benefits.
Everyone that was vested in the traditional plan as of May 31, 2008 will receive what they would've had they actually terminated their employment with Express on May 31, 2008. That plan ended on May 31, 2008 for everyone though, including all salaried employees excluding senior executives and aircrew under contract.
This means that an employee that had say 17.43 years of service as of that date will receive 17.43 times 2% times the average of the high years of service as a pension at age 60. That is currently locked in - currently. What happened is that everyone was forced into the PPP which only contributes 5% of annual gross into an "account" which FedEx holds and the employee cannot invest on their own. This is the gradual erosion of the pension for all employees that had less than 25 years of service as of May 31, 2008. Every year an employee that has less than 25 years of service as of 5/31/08 stays with FedEx, their "final" pension (DBPP + PPP annuity) will decrease compared to what would've been paid under the DBPP accumulating additional years of service. So that employee that had 17.43 years of service as of 5/31/08 will NOT accumulate additional years of service for calculation of the pension.
If that employee "retires" at 25 years of service, their pension at age 60 will be calculated in 2 parts. The first part will be for those 17.43 years of service times 2% times average of high years - THE HIGH YEARS AT THAT TIME, not the average of high years at the 25 year point. To this 34.86% of the average high at 17.43 years of service, will be added either an annuity from the PPP or a one-time payout to a "retirement" fund of the employee's choice.
Further complicating the issue are the employees that had 25 years + as of 5/31/08. They will receive 50% of the average of high years gross, PLUS whatever they accumulate under the PPP. So for these employee who are "double dipping" they are actually getting a larger benefit.
One might ask why would FedEx allow these employees to double dip. Because the PPP is such a lousy plan, that within a few years FedEx will actually begin to pay out less overall, FedEx will experience a NET savings. That employee that hired in after 5/31/08 and does a 25 year sentence with FedEx will only receive about one-third what they would've received under the the DBPP.
The retirement plan model I constructed a few days ago is good. Those that retired May 31,2008 received full amount under the traditional plan. Since the PPP is only about one-third as "large" as the DBPP, each month an employee continues to work with FedEx, their pension loses ground compared to what they would've received under the DBPP. Those that had more than 25 years when the switch happened actually have incentive to say with FedEx until they can no longer move, since they are accumulating more in the PPP along with their position under the traditional plan (maxed out).
This means that employees that are at the mid point in their "career" are in a bind. They have whatever existed 5/31/08; but they are only accumulating about one-third what would've been accumulated under the old plan. In otherwords, they don't have a pension upon which they can retire on, they have something that will cover utility payments and maybe a little more. Forget about purchasing the FedEx medical coverage for retirees, this would cost more than the "pension" would pay out each month.
This is part of the deliberate and planned narrowing of compensation levels between Express and other FedEx operating companies. It is going to continue. This is why barring the RLA classification being changed (which looks near impossible at this point), all of FedEx wages will begin a narrowing of difference between the operating companies. After all, if Fred can pay a Ground driver $13 an hour to deliver packages, why pay an Express driver $22 and hour plus benefits.
You've got part of it right but you've also made some very, very broad assumptions that may or may not be true for each indvidual.
The 5% contribution is not fixed at 5%. It depends on your age and years of service. As you get older and your have more service years under your belt, the % contribution goes up.
Without doing the math, I'm pretty sure just logically your calculation about peoples' "final" pension is wrong. It just depends on how long someone has worked for FedEx and whether they choose to stay with FedEx. There are a lot of employees who had less than 25 years and are going to come out much, much better off. I'm sure there are people who would have been better off if the DBPP stuck around so again, it just depends on the individual.
Also, logically, I'm not sure how you figure that as employee tenure goes up and more people retire that FedEx would pay less unless you are referring to the ERISA change that caused FedEx to end the DBPP and switch to a PPP. Like it or not, the change in the law meant that it was impossible for many companies to continue with a DBPP, especially with the economy doing what it is doing. Just look at the number of companies that have, or actually don't have, a defined benefit plan. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the economics of it.
As for someone getting a third of what they would have, again, it really depends on the individual, what they do with their career, what their plans and goals are for retirement, etc.
And the RLA thing has nothing to do with it. If enough couriers at FedEx wanted a union, there's nothing stopping them under the RLA from having a union. Keep in mind that a far higher percentage of employees covered under RLA are union compared to the number of employees covered under NLRA.
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
Better off under the PPP? Yeah, right. And the Pope is Jewish. Your comment about the RLA is misleading. Sure, we could have a union, IF there were not a bunch of right to work states that would never, ever go for a union. Smith has counted on this fact for 36 years and counting. If we're so damn happy, why should Fred be so afraid of a mere re-classification? The RLA classification effectively prevents a union....that's why Smith is pulling out all the stops to keep his sweetheart deal.
ERISA was the excuse, not the reason. As I've explained, Fred did away with the pension because he could and used the woes of the passenger airlines as a smokescreen to do it. ERISA has been around since the 70's..what a strange coincidence that Fred would become so "concerned" about having a fully funded plan at the same time the airlines were ditching their plans and getting bailed-out by the government.
Quadro, it's odd that you would reappear again on the BC after being slammed so badly before. Is it time to help Smith with another of his mis-information efforts? Why not answer these questions directly....because you can't.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
Well "quadro" at least you've revealed your true colors. You go two years without posting and then come out of the woodwork...
I'm pretty good at math, with all the finance and stuff... I've almost got the graduate work done, so I'm confident in my numbers. See, some of the people that drive for FedEx can indeed perform complicated financial calculations. FedEx got just a little bit more than it bargained for in the deal.
About the calculation about the final pension... You're wrong. The DBPP under actuary standards had close to a 15% of an employee's gross going towards it to support it. The PPP is 5%. If any REAL employee has a different figure at the bottom of the front page of the statement they just received, speak up. Oh sorry, quadro is a "real" employee, just not a wage employee or fully conversant in TVM calculations. Must have gone through LEAP back in the day...
I'm not referring to any change in ERISA either. As the liabilities go down, so do cash flows out of FedEx. FedEx pulled what will eventually happen to Social Security. Changes in the formulas to acheive a lower net payment will occur with the sole intent of reducing liabilities to beneficiaries. If you are so confident that the PPP is so good, why didn't FedEx employees flock to the PPP when it was offered as an option? Why did so many FedEx employees get ticked off when they were forced onto it a year ago? Your assertions don't match with reality, or good financial mathematics.
You backstop your reply with "depends on the individual". Well, give an example of a hypothetical individual that will come out ahead with the PPP. I'll give you one group, employees that had over 25 years of service as of 5/31/08. They will actually come out slightly ahead. Every other employee will lose. The amount of that loss varies with the amount of time they had under the traditional plan, and how much longer they stay with FedEx.
The "RLA thing" has EVERYTHING to do with this. If FedEx had their non-AGFS employees classified under NLRB rules, NONE of this would've happened. For those who don't have problems with their short term memories, this all happened BEFORE the latest economic difficulties, NOT after. FedEx could've switched to a non defined plan and funded it with 15% of an employee's gross and not 5%, it didn't. FedEx isn't paying a penny towards a pension plan for all the Ground drivers, since they are locked in the pseudo-IC model. FedEx is in the process of narrowing the differential between compensation levels in its operating companies. The gutting of the traditional pension plan is one part of that.
Your last paragraph is a FedEx talking point almost verbatim. At least you put it in your own language (it doesn't match up exactly with FedEx statements or press releases in the Commercial Appeal, congratulations). The argument is a false argument. FedEx wants RLA rules to prevent a union from making any headway into FedEx. Passenger airlines can organize under RLA since their employees have a better communication network among themselves. FedEx employees are divided up into over 600 stations across the US with NO official communication occuring between wage employees as part of work. It is all back channel (like this...).
If Fred were to lose his RLA status for Express, the Teamsters would be in within a year, and have all of Express organized within 3.
Please, refrain from dispensing FedEx KoolAid. You state you are neither a UPS employee or a "misinformed" FedEx employee. This means you are a salaried FedEx shill attempting to spread confusion among those who want to end the games of Fred. Stick to the Commercial Appeal and put away the methodology you learned from the Joseph Goebbels School of Public Misinformation.
I'm pretty good at math, with all the finance and stuff... I've almost got the graduate work done, so I'm confident in my numbers. See, some of the people that drive for FedEx can indeed perform complicated financial calculations. FedEx got just a little bit more than it bargained for in the deal.
About the calculation about the final pension... You're wrong. The DBPP under actuary standards had close to a 15% of an employee's gross going towards it to support it. The PPP is 5%. If any REAL employee has a different figure at the bottom of the front page of the statement they just received, speak up. Oh sorry, quadro is a "real" employee, just not a wage employee or fully conversant in TVM calculations. Must have gone through LEAP back in the day...
I'm not referring to any change in ERISA either. As the liabilities go down, so do cash flows out of FedEx. FedEx pulled what will eventually happen to Social Security. Changes in the formulas to acheive a lower net payment will occur with the sole intent of reducing liabilities to beneficiaries. If you are so confident that the PPP is so good, why didn't FedEx employees flock to the PPP when it was offered as an option? Why did so many FedEx employees get ticked off when they were forced onto it a year ago? Your assertions don't match with reality, or good financial mathematics.
You backstop your reply with "depends on the individual". Well, give an example of a hypothetical individual that will come out ahead with the PPP. I'll give you one group, employees that had over 25 years of service as of 5/31/08. They will actually come out slightly ahead. Every other employee will lose. The amount of that loss varies with the amount of time they had under the traditional plan, and how much longer they stay with FedEx.
The "RLA thing" has EVERYTHING to do with this. If FedEx had their non-AGFS employees classified under NLRB rules, NONE of this would've happened. For those who don't have problems with their short term memories, this all happened BEFORE the latest economic difficulties, NOT after. FedEx could've switched to a non defined plan and funded it with 15% of an employee's gross and not 5%, it didn't. FedEx isn't paying a penny towards a pension plan for all the Ground drivers, since they are locked in the pseudo-IC model. FedEx is in the process of narrowing the differential between compensation levels in its operating companies. The gutting of the traditional pension plan is one part of that.
Your last paragraph is a FedEx talking point almost verbatim. At least you put it in your own language (it doesn't match up exactly with FedEx statements or press releases in the Commercial Appeal, congratulations). The argument is a false argument. FedEx wants RLA rules to prevent a union from making any headway into FedEx. Passenger airlines can organize under RLA since their employees have a better communication network among themselves. FedEx employees are divided up into over 600 stations across the US with NO official communication occuring between wage employees as part of work. It is all back channel (like this...).
If Fred were to lose his RLA status for Express, the Teamsters would be in within a year, and have all of Express organized within 3.
Please, refrain from dispensing FedEx KoolAid. You state you are neither a UPS employee or a "misinformed" FedEx employee. This means you are a salaried FedEx shill attempting to spread confusion among those who want to end the games of Fred. Stick to the Commercial Appeal and put away the methodology you learned from the Joseph Goebbels School of Public Misinformation.
I don't see anyone who is claiming that $70-$120 per month is a bona fide pension.
For those employees who have both pensions, they are double dipping. Calling an apple an orange doesn't make it an orange. Also, you are the only one who said anything about making out like bandits. No one has claimed that. UPS has more volume and more revenue. They can afford to pay more. And how big or small the lump sum is, if you even choose the lump sum which you don't have to do, depends on a lot of things. There will be many people who end up with a sizeable lump sum.
Never a truer word was spoken.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
Just because I choose not to post doesn't mean I haven't been around. You know this was a pretty good discussion but then you resort to an ad hominem argument. Why? Because you don't have the facts to support your story? What's wrong with respecting other peoples opinions and acknowledging that each and every person needs to make decisions based on facts and what's best for them? Not what some misinformed person thinks is best for everyone.
I am far from conversant in actuary standards so I have no idea if your 15% number is right or wrong. If I have time I'll have to look into that. What I do know is that I am not wrong about the 5%. Please, just research how the PPP accrues and you'll see that it's a graduated scale based on how old you are and how many years you've worked at FedEx.
I never said the PPP was so good.
What about employees who had 24 years or 23 years, or 17 years? Depending on how much longer they work for FedEx, they could come out ahead too. Again, it depends on the individual and there are a lot of individuals that fall into this group.
You can't possibly know what would have and what wouldn't have happened and neither can I. What I do know is that if the non-AGFS employees wanted a union there is nothing stopping them. I also know that the ERISA change meant that FedEx would have had to come up with a payment in excess of $1Billion and that was, as you noted, before the latest economic difficulties. Just think how much that payment would have been this year. So thanks for proving my point on that one.
Straw man argument. FedEx employees are smart enough to communicate and if enough wanted representation, they would have it. The simple fact of the matter is that no union can justify the cost of a full campaign while FedEx is under RLA because the odds aren't in their favor.
Again with the ad hominem attacks. Why can't I just be an informed FedEx employee? Or are you saying there are no informed FedEx employees other than salaried shills? I don't presume to know what is best for anyone other than myself but I take the time to get the facts and understand them. If someone wants my opinion of what I think would be good for them, I'll gladly talk with them to try and understand their situation and let them know what I would do in their shoes. That could very easily be something different and in opposition to what I want for myself. I won't however disrespect them or make fallacious assumptions about them.
I can see why your name is Ricochet. You're bouncing around all over the place.
Ok, as it's only been about a year for most people in the PPP, if they were to retire now then they might only get $70 a month but that would be true under any pension plan if you were in it for only a year (assuming you were even vested after a year which I don't think you can be but that's beside the point). Try to find someone who has been in it for about 5 years and see what their payout would be. It won't be huge but it'll be more than $70 a month. The PPP favors those employees who stick around a long time as should any pension plan. I'm not saying they'll retire with millions and I'm not saying the PPP is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm just putting what you said into perspective.
There's way more to it than that. What about cost structures, expenses, etc, etc.
Who said FedEx isn't a Fortune 500 company anymore? I didn't.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
How can I debate based upon an "intellectual" argument you've put forth, when you state no examples and give no figures? You backstop everything with a generalized "it depends" and never give a single example to back up your erroneous statements. This leaves the old ad hominem response to a shill.
I've got plenty of facts to back up my story. Let's talk facts. Take an employee that had 10 years when the pension was pulled that is now 36 years old. Use all of the assumptions of the model I presented days ago (I'll let you look that up).
What are the differences in pension pay out for this employee (take a 25 year career, retiring in 2023, drawing in 2033)?
That employee would've made about $45,500 in 2008, for a pension payout of just overr $9,000 a year in 2033 ($4300 in 2009 inflation controlled dollars) with the DBPP formula for the 10 years of service under the DBPP.
This employee will top out in 2018 at 30.24 an hour and will retire at $35.05/hr ($22.47 in 2009 dollars).
The FedEx "contributions" in that employee's PPP will amount to just under $49,000 though 2023, with an amount of $95,273 sitting in the account in 2033 at age 60 as a result of principle and FedEx interest payments of 4% annual. This is equal to $45,585 in 2009 dollars. So much for your supposed large sum of cash.
Lots of grist to grind...
Lets compare the traditional plan to the shafting under the PPP....
Under the traditional plan this employee would've had an average high of $77,500 when he/she retired in 2023. This would've provided a annual pension of $38,750 in 2033 ($18,540 in 2009 dollars). Not bad, but definately not alot.
Now the PPP. The employee gets to keep the $9,000 a year that was provided when the plans were switched. Let's see.. $38,750 minus $9,000 leaves a shortfall of...let's just call it $30,000/yr to keep it simple (all 2033 dollars).
This employee has $95,273 sitting in the FedEx "pot" earning a whopping 4% interest.... I don't think that will provide the missing $30,000 a year for too long. Are we going to resort to eating cat food at age 64 for retired Couriers???
Let's look at it this way. The retired Courier takes his very substantial sum of $95,273 (2033 dollars) and invests that in a plan which will pay out equal annual amounts until exhausting itself at age 80. Let's assume a conserative portfolio with a 5.5% annual return on funds balance. What is the annual benefit to be achieved with this large and quite substantial sum of cash????
Works out to $655 a month or $7,864 a year. For the benefit of our shill, $7,864 plus $9,000 equals $16,864 a year (2033 dollars).
Traditional Pension Plan = $38,750
PPP + Holdover = $16,864
Let's do a fraction for our shills, 16,864/38,750 = 43.52%.
This employee lost over 50% of what they would've received if they had the traditional pension plan in place when they retired. The percentage of loss starts at 0% for those who retired on May 31,2008 and steadily increases until a present day new hire will only be receiving about 33% of what they would've under the DBPP.
I resort to ad hominem attacks against shills when they make broad generalizations and fail to give examples to support their position. Support your falsehoods or do us the favor of going back into the woodwork for another 2 years. If you are a FedEx employee, I hope you've made alternative plans for a retirement. I'll be leaving next year, after having originally planned on making FedEx a second career after retiring from the military. For those who have no alternatives, I hope they can get a union in and silence shills like quadro.
I've got plenty of facts to back up my story. Let's talk facts. Take an employee that had 10 years when the pension was pulled that is now 36 years old. Use all of the assumptions of the model I presented days ago (I'll let you look that up).
What are the differences in pension pay out for this employee (take a 25 year career, retiring in 2023, drawing in 2033)?
That employee would've made about $45,500 in 2008, for a pension payout of just overr $9,000 a year in 2033 ($4300 in 2009 inflation controlled dollars) with the DBPP formula for the 10 years of service under the DBPP.
This employee will top out in 2018 at 30.24 an hour and will retire at $35.05/hr ($22.47 in 2009 dollars).
The FedEx "contributions" in that employee's PPP will amount to just under $49,000 though 2023, with an amount of $95,273 sitting in the account in 2033 at age 60 as a result of principle and FedEx interest payments of 4% annual. This is equal to $45,585 in 2009 dollars. So much for your supposed large sum of cash.
Lots of grist to grind...
Lets compare the traditional plan to the shafting under the PPP....
Under the traditional plan this employee would've had an average high of $77,500 when he/she retired in 2023. This would've provided a annual pension of $38,750 in 2033 ($18,540 in 2009 dollars). Not bad, but definately not alot.
Now the PPP. The employee gets to keep the $9,000 a year that was provided when the plans were switched. Let's see.. $38,750 minus $9,000 leaves a shortfall of...let's just call it $30,000/yr to keep it simple (all 2033 dollars).
This employee has $95,273 sitting in the FedEx "pot" earning a whopping 4% interest.... I don't think that will provide the missing $30,000 a year for too long. Are we going to resort to eating cat food at age 64 for retired Couriers???
Let's look at it this way. The retired Courier takes his very substantial sum of $95,273 (2033 dollars) and invests that in a plan which will pay out equal annual amounts until exhausting itself at age 80. Let's assume a conserative portfolio with a 5.5% annual return on funds balance. What is the annual benefit to be achieved with this large and quite substantial sum of cash????
Works out to $655 a month or $7,864 a year. For the benefit of our shill, $7,864 plus $9,000 equals $16,864 a year (2033 dollars).
Traditional Pension Plan = $38,750
PPP + Holdover = $16,864
Let's do a fraction for our shills, 16,864/38,750 = 43.52%.
This employee lost over 50% of what they would've received if they had the traditional pension plan in place when they retired. The percentage of loss starts at 0% for those who retired on May 31,2008 and steadily increases until a present day new hire will only be receiving about 33% of what they would've under the DBPP.
I resort to ad hominem attacks against shills when they make broad generalizations and fail to give examples to support their position. Support your falsehoods or do us the favor of going back into the woodwork for another 2 years. If you are a FedEx employee, I hope you've made alternative plans for a retirement. I'll be leaving next year, after having originally planned on making FedEx a second career after retiring from the military. For those who have no alternatives, I hope they can get a union in and silence shills like quadro.
FedEX 4 Life
Well-Known Member
Richotta and MrFedex dont even work for Fedex.I think they use to and got fired and like to post here and bash Fedex.It brings them closure.I can only imagine what they look like in real life.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
The next time Express puts out a Frontline video (its been awhile since I've been forced to watch one), I'll tell you all about it.
My closure will occur next year. I'll be sure to let you know. In the mean time, I'll be driving a truck on my pick-up route waiting for the day.
I didn't give an example because there are literally thousands of examples and each one is different so it doesn't do much good to put just one out there and also because I never claimed that the PPP was a good deal.
All I did was correct some misinformation that you had such as "you can't have both plans" and "the PPP contribution is only 5%".
The problem is that those were such glaring errors that it brings the rest of your "facts" into question. Not that the rest of your facts are wrong, it just becomes harder to accept what someone says when there are some fundemental errors.
You still haven't acknowledged that the 5% is not a fixed percentage so I don't know if you've accounted for that in your example; therefore, I don't really know if your example is correct or not.
Also, regardless of if the PPP is a good or bad deal, what's wrong with discussing the merits of why ERISA necessitated the change? What about UPS' ~$6Billion payment to exit Central States? Doesn't make me feel really good about what a union can negotiate for my pension. I would need a lot more info about all of that to feel like I was informed enough to make a decision.
Apparently not as I never really took a position other than to correct some facts that you had wrong and those can easily be verified.
Show me something that I've stated that's false and I'll correct it.
Good for you (and I mean that with all due respect). It's nice to see someone actually take responsibility for their actions and do something about it. I hope whatever you do works better for you than FedEx.
Sorry that you feel that ad hominem attacks and name calling are necessary but I don't take it personally so no hard feelings.
FedEX 4 Life
Well-Known Member
Man,Ricochet1a just got OWNED so hard in this thread.
Also did anyone else have to take that HOS test with the 70/8 hr rule?It was lame.
Also did anyone else have to take that HOS test with the 70/8 hr rule?It was lame.
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