20k DOW vs BITCOIN

[LarryBird]

People have been saying that forever. It’s still around. Now td ameritrade and fidelity are offering trading in it. College endowments are investing in it. It’s a new asset class.

So what now does it have to do with being a crypto currency? This wasn't the original intent of bitcoin - they were meant to be used, correct? Bitcoins were supposed to be used as payments for goods and services, as a currency, albeit an alternative one.

Bitcoin, and by proxy other altcoins, have become nothing more than just another investment vehicle.

Where/what are the coins with the real world application(s)? What aspects would that coin need to have to truly function as an alternative currency? These are a couple questions I've been asking myself lately, and trying to research. There's a few reasons and theories I have behind this, but I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong, and doubt that it's even possible to say, yet. Probably won't be answerable for a years to come, maybe even a decade or more.

But if there turns out to be no real world applications, or at least a certain level of mass adoption for bitcoin, and without a price stabilization I don't see that coming. Then how could this not be a massive bubble? How does this not have the aspects of a pump and dump scheme?

It's at least a valid question.

 

[El Correcto]

People have been saying that forever. It’s still around. Now td ameritrade and fidelity are offering trading in it. College endowments are investing in it. It’s a new asset class.

I still remember the “HODL!” Mentality of the last boom. 2 the moon, we are all gonna be millionaires, blah blah blah. Crashed to around a 1/3rd of its peak within a couple of months it seems like.

What people have been saying goes both ways, I just end on the side of being skeptical.

 

[LarryBird]

I still remember the “HODL!” Mentality of the last boom. 2 the moon, we are all gonna be millionaires, blah blah blah. Crashed to around a 1/3rd of its peak within a couple of months it seems like.

What people have been saying goes both ways, I just end on the side of being skeptical.

I tend to agree with you.

(For once.)

 

[Jones]

I still remember the “HODL!” Mentality of the last boom. 2 the moon, we are all gonna be millionaires, blah blah blah. Crashed to around a 1/3rd of its peak within a couple of months it seems like.

What people have been saying goes both ways, I just end on the side of being skeptical.

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, but there's also nothing wrong with buying some crypto as a hedge. It's not like we don't make plenty of money.

 

[Brownslave688]

So what now does it have to do with being a crypto currency? This wasn't the original intent of bitcoin - they were meant to be used, correct? Bitcoins were supposed to be used as payments for goods and services, as a currency, albeit an alternative one.

Bitcoin, and by proxy other altcoins, have become nothing more than just another investment vehicle.

Where/what are the coins with the real world application(s)? What aspects would that coin need to have to truly function as an alternative currency? These are a couple questions I've been asking myself lately, and trying to research. There's a few reasons and theories I have behind this, but I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong, and doubt that it's even possible to say, yet. Probably won't be answerable for a years to come, maybe even a decade or more.

But if there turns out to be no real world applications, or at least a certain level of mass adoption for bitcoin, and without a price stabilization I don't see that coming. Then how could this not be a massive bubble? How does this not have the aspects of a pump and dump scheme?

It's at least a valid question.

What actual use does gold have that justifies its value?

 

[LarryBird]

What actual use does gold have that justifies its value?

It is used to patch the hole in the ozone layer, brah.

That's the big secret to why it's so valuable.

 

[Brownslave688]

I still remember the “HODL!” Mentality of the last boom. 2 the moon, we are all gonna be millionaires, blah blah blah. Crashed to around a 1/3rd of its peak within a couple of months it seems like.

What people have been saying goes both ways, I just end on the side of being skeptical.

And it’ll be back to its highs in under 2 years. The s&p 500 lost 50% and took 5 years to get back to its high.


These cycles happen over and over with all assets.

 

[It will be fine]

What actual use does gold have that justifies its value?

Heat shields.

 

[Brownslave688]

It is used to patch the hole in the ozone layer, brah.

That's the big secret to why it's so valuable.

People agree it has value. That’s really all that matters.


If people will buy your bitcoin for 100k that’s what it’s worth at that time.

 

[LarryBird]

What actual use does gold have that justifies its value?

Gold is considered a commodity and not a currency, and it's traded as such.

While gold was a times throughout history used as currency, it has long since been replaced by paper money, and paper money that isn't even backed by gold anymore, for that matter. So gold has since become nothing more than a commodity to be traded on an exchange, albeit one that does have real world applications in electronics and a few other things.

Bitcoin was positioned as a currency. A decentralized currency to replace the fiat money issued by central banks. It has also become a commodity instead of a currency.

I think what we're finding out, is that without a central authority to set and regulate the value, and to keep it stable without wild fluctuations up or down, it cannot be considered a currency, or at least can't function as one because of the wild fluctuations. This seems to be the flaw in crypto currency as an actual currency. At least, in my admittedly limited understanding of crypto. I'm not an expert, and I know that.

But the value/cost of goods and services remain stable, while the value of bitcoin doesn't. Who wants to pay using bitcoin for a service, only to find out a week later that they paid $2000 for a massage(without a happy ending), and who wants to accept it, only to find out they were paid $2000 for $5000 worth of products or services when the value of bitcoin plunges suddenly?

 

[Brownslave688]

Gold is considered a commodity and not a currency, and it's traded as such.

While gold was a times throughout history used as currency, it has long since been replaced by paper money, and paper money that isn't even backed by gold anymore, for that matter. So gold has since become nothing more than a commodity to be traded on an exchange, albeit one that does have real world applications in electronics and a few other things.

Bitcoin was positioned as a currency. A decentralized currency to replace the fiat money issued by central banks. It has also become a commodity instead of a currency.

I think what we're finding out, is that without a central authority to set and regulate the value, and to keep it stable without wild fluctuations up or down, it cannot be considered a currency, or at least can't function as one because of the wild fluctuations. This seems to be the flaw in crypto currency as an actual currency. At least, in my admittedly limited understanding of crypto. I'm not an expert, and I know that.

But the value/cost of goods and services remain stable, while the value of bitcoin doesn't. Who wants to pay using bitcoin for a service, only to find out a week later that they paid $2000 for a massage(without a happy ending), and who wants to accept it, only to find out they were paid $2000 for $5000 worth of products or services when the value of bitcoin plunges suddenly?

Tons of inventions have found uses outside of their original intentions.

If people decide bitcoin has a use case as an investment or a store of value. It’s traded as a commodity just as gold is.

You’re really hung up on the currency part of all this.

 

[newfie]

I'm cresting a 100 percent return on this latest Bitcoin run. Not a big investment fun to watch.

 

[LarryBird]

Tons of inventions have found uses outside of their original intentions.

If people decide bitcoin has a use case as an investment or a store of value. It’s traded as a commodity just as gold is.

You’re really hung up on the currency part of all this.

It's not a hangup, as much as it is an observation, and a potential counterpoint to the hype.

Bitcoin is supposedly worth what people say it is, just like money, and just like gold. But along with people agreeing on it, money and gold have value, because our government and central banks have told us this, and they are the only acceptable forms of payment for goods, services, and most importantly taxes. You can pay your taxes with money, and you can exchange your gold, the price of which is set in London and remains relatively stable, for money...Bitcoin doesn't have any of this going for it.

Bitcoin has no inherent value on it's own, no centralized authority to give it a value, and no government that recognizes it as a currency, at least one that you can pay your taxes with, and no method in place to stabilize it's pricing or value as a commodity.

So what gives bitcoin a value outside of people's overzealous excitement for it - people who don't even really understand it, it's intended use and reason for existing, or block chain technology in many cases? It has all the makings of a bubble.

That doesn't mean people won't get rich from it. That doesn't mean it can't be a good short term investment. It does mean that putting too much confidence or too much of your investment portfolio into it, could lead to devastating consequences. It does mean that someone will ultimately be caught holding the bag if/when the bubble does burst.

 

[Brownslave688]

It's not a hangup, as much as it is an observation, and a potential counterpoint to the hype.

Bitcoin is supposedly worth what people say it is, just like money, and just like gold. But along with people agreeing on it, money and gold have value, because our government and central banks have told us this, and they are the only acceptable forms of payment for goods, services, and most importantly taxes. You can pay your taxes with money, and you can exchange your gold, the price of which is set in London and remains relatively stable, for money...Bitcoin doesn't have any of this going for it.

Bitcoin has no inherent value on it's own, no centralized authority to give it a value, and no government that recognizes it as a currency, at least one that you can pay your taxes with, and no method in place to stabilize it's pricing or value as a commodity.

So what gives bitcoin a value outside of people's overzealous excitement for it - people who don't even really understand it, it's intended use and reason for existing, or block chain technology in many cases? It has all the makings of a bubble.

That doesn't mean people won't get rich from it. That doesn't mean it can't be a good short term investment. It does mean that putting too much confidence or too much of your investment portfolio into it, could lead to devastating consequences. It does mean that someone will ultimately be caught holding the bag if/when the bubble does burst.

The government can back a currency all they want. It means little when hits the fan.

There are a number of countries now going through hyperinflation. Many of their citizens are choosing cryptos to transfer wealth or even pay for goods

Why is a Mickey mantle rookie card worth thousands? Because someone will pay it. Literally all that matters.

 

[LarryBird]

The government can back a currency all they want. It means little when hits the fan.

There are a number of countries now going through hyperinflation. Many of their citizens are choosing cryptos to transfer wealth or even pay for goods

Why is a Mickey mantle rookie card worth thousands? Because someone will pay it. Literally all that matters.

You're not getting my point.

You are a crypto kool-aid drinker, and that's fine. I'm interested in crypto as well, but I'm trying to look into the potential downsides and pitfalls before I put my financial future into it.

I see a lot of potential trouble, if the people wake up one day and realize that they're putting a lot of hard currency into something that has no real use, doesn't exist as a tangible commodity they can hold, and is only worth whatever we think it is at a given time - so that said, it solves nothing, in relation to the nature of our inherently valueless paper money, and it doesn't even have the protections put in place by governments and central banks, such as the full faith yada yada yada...

The pitfalls are there to see. That bitcoin could have a precipitous decline, and a market self-correction, seems likes a when, more than an if, is what I'm getting at.

This doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in the future, and it doesn't even mean I'm necessarily right about all of this either...it's simply a discussion that nobody seems to have any real rebuttals for, and something anyone who has, or is thinking of putting any significant capital investment into crypto, and bitcoin and it's clones in particular, should be discussing or have some answers for.

There are other cryptos I see that have addressed, or attempt to address some of the issues that bitcoin is facing or has faced in the past, but these coins are nowhere near the popularity or value of bitcoin obviously...plus bitcoin is what it is already, and there's nothing that can be done to put the cat back in the bag and start over - so what the future is for bitcoin, and whether it's a worthy long-term investment or a bubble that will burst leaving people broke or with huge losses on their hands remains to be seen.

Why won't crypto enthusiasts ever discuss the possibility of bitcoin failing in it's goals, the potential mistakes they made as the 1st to market, or the fact that cryptos are nowhere near a mature product/currency/investment class, and we don't really know what they will become or if they have a long-term viability as they're presently envisioned/constructed?

I want to hear people who know more than me discuss their fears and concerns, not tout crypto as the lord himself personified, come back disguised as bitcoin to make us all wealthy beyond our wildest dreams. This all out love affair with crypto/bitcoin by those who are invested, is a large part of why people think of it in terms of a pump and dump...

 

[El Correcto]

The government can back a currency all they want. It means little when hits the fan.

There are a number of countries now going through hyperinflation. Many of their citizens are choosing cryptos to transfer wealth or even pay for goods

Why is a Mickey mantle rookie card worth thousands? Because someone will pay it. Literally all that matters.

I have no problem at all with crypto, I just think some people get a little silly with it.
https://www.browncafe.com/community/threads/i-want-my-401k-money-now.377231/

They view it as a sure thing and it is far from being one.

 

[Brownslave688]

You're not getting my point.

You are a crypto kool-aid drinker, and that's fine. I'm interested in crypto as well, but I'm trying to look into the potential downsides and pitfalls before I put my financial future into it.

I see a lot of potential trouble, if the people wake up one day and realize that they're putting a lot of hard currency into something that has no real use, doesn't exist as a tangible commodity they can hold, and is only worth whatever we think it is at a given time - so that said, it solves nothing, in relation to the nature of our inherently valueless paper money, and it doesn't even have the protections put in place by governments and central banks, such as the full faith yada yada yada...

The pitfalls are there to see. That bitcoin could have a precipitous decline, and a market self-correction, seems likes a when, more than an if, is what I'm getting at.

This doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in the future, and it doesn't even mean I'm necessarily right about all of this either...it's simply a discussion that nobody seems to have any real rebuttals for, and something anyone who has, or is thinking of putting any significant capital investment into crypto, and bitcoin and it's clones in particular, should be discussing or have some answers for.

There are other cryptos I see that have addressed, or attempt to address some of the issues that bitcoin is facing or has faced in the past, but these coins are nowhere near the popularity or value of bitcoin obviously...plus bitcoin is what it is already, and there's nothing that can be done to put the cat back in the bag and start over - so what the future is for bitcoin, and whether it's a worthy long-term investment or a bubble that will burst leaving people broke or with huge losses on their hands remains to be seen.

Why won't crypto enthusiasts ever discuss the possibility of bitcoin failing in it's goals, the potential mistakes they made as the 1st to market, or the fact that cryptos are nowhere near a mature product/currency/investment class, and we don't really know what they will become or if they have a long-term viability as they're presently envisioned/constructed?

I want to hear people who know more than me discuss their fears and concerns, not tout crypto as the lord himself personified, come back disguised as bitcoin to make us all wealthy beyond our wildest dreams. This all out love affair with crypto/bitcoin by those who are invested, is a large part of why people think of it in terms of a pump and dump...

All I need to know is the NYSE is creating an exchange for institutions, fidelity, td ameritrade, etc. endowments are investing in it. The rich have decided they want their piece of the pie too and that it’s an asset. You’re just repeating the same thing people
Have been saying for a decade yet here bitcoin still is. Will many of them be worthless over time? Sure they will but bitcoin will be around. It’s still the only name 90% of people know when they hear crypto.

The wild price swings are because of the limited supply (which is what makes it a great store of value) and relatively small market cap. You can’t just print more. 85% of all of the bitcoins that will ever exist have already been mined.

 

[Brownslave688]

I have no problem at all with crypto, I just think some people get a little silly with it.
I want my 401k money now!!!

They view it as a sure thing and it is far from being one.

Oh for sure by no means is it a sure thing. Bitcoin is probably the closest to a sure thing simply on name recognition.

Just like the internet boom. In 10-15 years some will have made people very rich and some will be worth nothing.

It’s just surprising that so few are willing to invest 5-10% in it. Very few things, short of straight up gambling, are gonna give you the shot at 7,8,9,10 times your money in a year.

 

[LarryBird]

Oh for sure by no means is it a sure thing. Bitcoin is probably the closest to a sure thing simply on name recognition.

Just like the internet boom. In 10-15 years some will have made people very rich and some will be worth nothing.

It’s just surprising that so few are willing to invest 5-10% in it. Very few things, short of straight up gambling, are gonna give you the shot at 7,8,9,10 times your money in a year.

I actually would equate crypto will straight up gambling right now. I think that's a fine comparison.

Again, that's all good, and people get rich as betting/playing cards, and golf, and prop betting for cash, but it's a zero-sum endeavor, and someone is always on the losing end of that gain of wealth by the victor - just like crypto trading, or stocks, or other investment vehicles in general.

I'm willing to ante up, but I'm aware that it's not exactly informed investing, and it's more like a lottery ticket with slightly better odds of winning.

 

[El Correcto]

Oh for sure by no means is it a sure thing. Bitcoin is probably the closest to a sure thing simply on name recognition.

Just like the internet boom. In 10-15 years some will have made people very rich and some will be worth nothing.

It’s just surprising that so few are willing to invest 5-10% in it. Very few things, short of straight up gambling, are gonna give you the shot at 7,8,9,10 times your money in a year.

I’d be willing to throw like 2% into it.
I just don’t see it as a safe haven for my nest egg long term. It would make me sick to my stomach watching 2/3 of my savings go up in smoke every year.