Action Was Reckless - Tulsi Gabbard

[bbsam]

not really an emotional view , just not sure where I'm drawing the line yet.

You are coming.off as a bleeding heart.

 

[Catatonic]

BTW @newfie,
I have enjoyed the back and forth in this discussion.
It's too bad that more discussions can't be like this and productive.
I think that no matter what the stance on global cruelty, I will not like it no matter what it is.
This is one of those issues that is tough to deal with and there should not be an expressed policy and deal with each occurrence on a one-on-one analysis and action.

 

[vantexan]

I've never argued that we should take in any refugees, nor have I argued we shouldn't. As to bombing military targets, show me how such targets are an actual direct threat to me at this very moment right here where I live and not in some constructed theory built more out to fear than fact.

Doesn't matter whether it's a threat to you directly or not. If the U.S. has to pay for most of the U.N. and has to shoulder the burden of trying to keep a sane lid on a world of despots, then the U.S. has the right to tell bad actors there are lines they must not cross and enforce it. Otherwise we get into situations like the Syria refugee crisis with millions displaced. There isn't an endless flow of money to fix this problem when we have our own problems to address. But an ounce of prevention is much better than the proverbial pound of cure.

 

[vantexan]

Have millions come here from Syria?

They certainly did to Europe. And Hillary was saying bring in hundreds of thousands in her campaign. Interesting in Europe that they walked across the poor nations of the Balkans to get to the wealthier Western European countries who have much better benefits.

 

[wkmac]

Doesn't matter whether it's a threat to you directly or not. If the U.S. has to pay for most of the U.N. and has to shoulder the burden of trying to keep a sane lid on a world of despots, then the U.S. has the right to tell bad actors there are lines they must not cross and enforce it. Otherwise we get into situations like the Syria refugee crisis with millions displaced. There isn't an endless flow of money to fix this problem when we have our own problems to address. But an ounce of prevention is much better than the proverbial pound of cure.

I don't think it is any of my responsibility to police the world. Nobody died and named me god so why should I march around and act like one? If that to is the case, then I have no authority (pass on god rights) to delegate to others the right to play god and police the planet. That sounds like something out of the mind of a Ted Turner and called Captain Planet just of another sort in this case.

Not for me but knock yourself out if you feel otherwise.

 

[wkmac]

You are coming.off as a bleeding heart.

I wanted to point it out but refrained for the sake of not taking the discussion further off the rails than it already has gone but thanks for doing so.

 

[wkmac]

They certainly did to Europe. And Hillary was saying bring in hundreds of thousands in her campaign. Interesting in Europe that they walked across the poor nations of the Balkans to get to the wealthier Western European countries who have much better benefits.

But Hillary isn't President, which contrary to your previous statement I think is a good thing, so why is this still such a concern? Trump has already made it clear on this issue or are you guys starting to have doubts about your man?

 

[Catatonic]

You are coming.off as a bleeding heart.

It is a different position than I usually notice him taking.
That is what happens when it hits home personally and emotionally.
And that is the way it should be - change usually occurs when emotion comes into play.

 

[vantexan]

I don't think it is any of my responsibility to police the world. Nobody died and named me god so why should I march around and act like one? If that to is the case, then I have no authority (pass on god rights) to delegate to others the right to play god and police the planet. That sounds like something out of the mind of a Ted Turner and called Captain Planet just of another sort in this case.

Not for me but knock yourself out if you feel otherwise.

It's up to our gov't to decide what's in our national interests. If we don't like it we can vote others in but as they are privy to information we aren't all we can do is hope whoever is in office acts responsibly. But I have to laugh at the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here by some. Our gov't has spy satellites, huge numbers of analysts, assets on the ground. Some here look at Google Earth and think they've got a handle on the truth. And think anyone who sees it differently is a fool.

 

[vantexan]

But Hillary isn't President, which contrary to your previous statement I think is a good thing, so why is this still such a concern? Trump has already made it clear on this issue or are you guys starting to have doubts about your man?

What I'm saying is they took in huge amounts of refugees in Europe and have had many problems arise dealing with them. Your man, and woman, wanted to make those issues our issues. Your party wants to take in refugees but doesn't want to do the work necessary to prevent them from becoming refugees in the first place. If we shouldn't be the world's policeman then we shouldn't be the world's halfway house either.

 

[wkmac]

It's up to our gov't to decide what's in our national interests. If we don't like it we can vote others in but as they are privy to information we aren't all we can do is hope whoever is in office acts responsibly. But I have to laugh at the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here by some. Our gov't has spy satellites, huge numbers of analysts, assets on the ground. Some here look at Google Earth and think they've got a handle on the truth. And think anyone who sees it differently is a fool.

I don't want any gov't deciding what is in my best interests. They have a track record of getting it wrong more often than they get it right. Besides, their idea of interests is more often than not dictated by someone else's dollar.

 

[vantexan]

I don't want any gov't deciding what is in my best interests. They have a track record of getting it wrong more often than they get it right. Besides, their idea of interests is more often than not dictated by someone else's dollar.

Anarchy?

 

[wkmac]

What I'm saying is they took in huge amounts of refugees in Europe and have had many problems arise dealing with them. Your man, and woman, wanted to make those issues our issues. Your party wants to take in refugees but doesn't want to do the work necessary to prevent them from becoming refugees in the first place. If we shouldn't be the world's policeman then we shouldn't be the world's halfway house either.

I don't live in Europe, thus I have no say in what they do or don't do, therefore I focus my attentions elsewhere.

What is this "Your party" thingy you are talking about? Could you at least name the party you have me pegged in?

 

[wkmac]

Anarchy?

I am an anarchist, that much is true.

 

[vantexan]

I don't live in Europe, thus I have no say in what they do or don't do, therefore I focus my attentions elsewhere.

What is this "Your party" thingy you are talking about? Could you at least name the party you have me pegged in?

If we're in the U.N., and N.A.T.O., and our allies are taking refugees in droves, our previous administration was saying, and the Democrat nominee was too, that we must bear some of that burden too. So yeah, it affects all of us when our leaders make those decisions for us. You may not like it, but the only control you have is your vote. But since that decision was made by a political party you endorse you'll somehow make it the other party's fault, after all they're the party that's after the buck, right?

 

[wkmac]

If we're in the U.N., and N.A.T.O., and our allies are taking refugees in droves, our previous administration was saying, and the Democrat nominee was too, that we must bear some of that burden too. So yeah, it affects all of us when our leaders make those decisions for us. You may not like it, but the only control you have is your vote. But since that decision was made by a political party you endorse you'll somehow make it the other party's fault, after all they're the party that's after the buck, right?

You sure are trying to drag me into your collectives. And I disagree my only control is my vote. Non compliance is another expression of my control as there are many others. But let's for the sake of argument say my vote is my only control and I deny my vote to any side of the political BS that allegedly runs things. Seems to me my action itself is making a statement that I'm not surrendering my control to someone else as I refuse to participate in such immoral collectivism. You are free to play centralized state and New World Order but that doesn't project any requirement upon me to take part or even to support you in your endeavors.

 

[MAKAVELI]

Doesn't matter whether it's a threat to you directly or not. If the U.S. has to pay for most of the U.N. and has to shoulder the burden of trying to keep a sane lid on a world of despots, then the U.S. has the right to tell bad actors there are lines they must not cross and enforce it. Otherwise we get into situations like the Syria refugee crisis with millions displaced. There isn't an endless flow of money to fix this problem when we have our own problems to address. But an ounce of prevention is much better than the proverbial pound of cure.

That worked out really well in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't it?

 

[vantexan]

You sure are trying to drag me into your collectives. And I disagree my only control is my vote. Non compliance is another expression of my control as there are many others. But let's for the sake of argument say my vote is my only control and I deny my vote to any side of the political BS that allegedly runs things. Seems to me my action itself is making a statement that I'm not surrendering my control to someone else as I refuse to participate in such immoral collectivism. You are free to play centralized state and New World Order but that doesn't project any requirement upon me to take part or even to support you in your endeavors.

I have a brother who feels the way you do. So much so he's on a Secret Service list. And has flown to New York to attend anarchist meetings. He was the Federal Prison chaplin who handled Timothy McVeigh and Terry whatshisname. And went to Joliet to protest McVeigh's execution because he's against all killing. Went vegan to not harm animals. And I could go on. I pointed out once that at the moment people get together to decide how they educate their children they have gov't. You can't escape it. And contrary to what many believe most right wingers don't want war. We just believe the world's a safer place through strength and someone must step up to protect the weak.

 

[vantexan]

That worked out really well in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't it?

You're talking about reactive, I'm talking proactive. You're talking about our direct conflicts, I'm talking about using our strength to establish safe zones to protect civilians. If people want to fight they're going to. As much as possible we should avoid getting embroiled in civil wars. Or war between neighbors. Can't imagine a world war where we wouldn't be involved.

 

[MAKAVELI]

You're talking about reactive, I'm talking proactive. You're talking about our direct conflicts, I'm talking about using our strength to establish safe zones to protect civilians. If people want to fight they're going to. As much as possible we should avoid getting embroiled in civil wars. Or war between neighbors. Can't imagine a world war where we wouldn't be involved.

Wut? This was purely reactive. And Iraq was supposed to be preemptive ( proactive ).