Action Was Reckless - Tulsi Gabbard

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
You're talking about reactive, I'm talking proactive. You're talking about our direct conflicts, I'm talking about using our strength to establish safe zones to protect civilians. If people want to fight they're going to. As much as possible we should avoid getting embroiled in civil wars. Or war between neighbors. Can't imagine a world war where we wouldn't be involved.

Agreed, but if we exert our strength (safe zones), then we're in.

Are we in, or are we not?

This is a high-profile case, but 'babies' are dying around the world left and right.

Are the 'babies' that are dying from a simple lack of vitamins less important than 'gassed' babies?

Please.

Seems to me that if you want to take a stand, at least be consistent.

By that metric, we'd be invading Moscow, Somalia, Alabama, Chicago, Detroit, Queens, Crimea, the suburbs of Washington D.C., on and on and on.

Pick, or choose, but don't pick and choose.
 
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
Wut? This was purely reactive. And Iraq was supposed to be preemptive ( proactive ).
We went into Iraq as a reaction to 9/11. Same for Afghanistan. Both were direct conflicts with us on one side. We can't necessarily prevent regional conflicts like Syria but we can do our part to protect the civilian population. If a full blown civil war happens for example between the mullahs in Iran and secular progressives there could be a huge humanitarian crisis. The world shouldn't stand on the sidelines and watch millions get displaced or worse. Especially if they start heading for Europe like the Syrians. That's what I mean about being proactive. An ounce of prevention.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Agreed, but if we exert our strength (safe zones), then we're in.

Are we in, or are we not?

This is a high-profile case, but 'babies' are dying around the world left and right.

Are the 'babies' that are dying from a simple lack of vitamins less important than 'gassed' babies?

Please.

Seems to me that if you want to take a stand, at least be consistent.

By that metric, we'd be invading Moscow, Somalia, Alabama, Chicago, Detroit, Queens, Crimea, the suburbs of Washington D.C., on and on and on.

Pick, or choose, but don't pick and choose.
Sounds like you're saying if we do anything we're wrong so don't do anything(and still be wrong).
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
A Libertarian values and believes in personal and economic freedom for individuals.
Before individuals can have such freedoms they have to live in economic and political systems that allow such freedoms to flourish. If we put our individual rights first and turn our backs on the oppressed in other countries then we are a selfish people who the world despises. At the same time we have to accept that there's only so much we can do and ultimately people under the thumb of oppressive regimes must stand up for themselves. We can't take them all in nor can we fight their battles or instill our cultural values on them.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Not at all.

But, pick your battles.

We (USA) can't pick them all.

I just find this newfound talk about the horror of 'babies' a little disingenuous.
That was Trump's reaction and I think that would be most people's reaction.
He seems like a doting father and grandfather.

I think Trump wanted to respond and show personal strength and the feckless strike was their alternative to be measured and proportional. And guess what, his polls were up today. Go figure.

I don't think (and certainly hope) that Trump has any desire to get any more involved in the Mid-East than we already are.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I have a brother who feels the way you do. So much so he's on a Secret Service list. And has flown to New York to attend anarchist meetings. He was the Federal Prison chaplin who handled Timothy McVeigh and Terry whatshisname. And went to Joliet to protest McVeigh's execution because he's against all killing. Went vegan to not harm animals. And I could go on. I pointed out once that at the moment people get together to decide how they educate their children they have gov't. You can't escape it. And contrary to what many believe most right wingers don't want war. We just believe the world's a safer place through strength and someone must step up to protect the weak.

You've yet to figure out the difference between the State and a self organizing institution. Once there myself. The State requires compliance and thus force becomes a necessity as the State become the principle purpose and not the people themselves. The people are sacrificed if need be to insure the State itself prevails and continues no matter what. Debt to the unborn 3 generations out is a good example of this.

A self organizing institution is voluntary and exists as a community function to support a mutual aid. The people are the ultimate purpose and such institution serve the needs of the people as a community. The State does not do this but compells the people into service to the State.

Human self organizing institutions exist as a voluntary expression of community and not a dogmatic compulsory arm for the purpose of some orthodox nationalism. Such don't need flags, pledges or other symbols for public loyalty displays nor is some public profession necessary to prove ones devotion. Quite often just the opposite. Maybe this is another reason our founding fathers never saw fit to create pledges or national anthems for patriotic demonstrations. It was more about the local, people and place and not so much the national. This would come later.

This is exactly why I see no real difference between people of the left and people on the right. Their idea of organizing are compelled by force and not by voluntary choice.

As for your brother, anarchy literally means no ruler and thus by its nature most anarchists are not alike but may share a few common traits. McVeigh for example was created by the Military State and then one of its own dogs turned around and bit the owner on the hand. I have no interest in getting in the middle of that. As for meat, I still enjoy a good steak but I also realize some arguments by so-called vegans about animal treatment are not without some merit.

In the case of right wingers and war, when right wingers are out of the way, the warfare state of the left comes shining through, Obama's 8 years are solid proof of that. The murdering bitch Hillary would have been even worse. Seems Trump is fast becoming a disappointment but I also understand the difference between the office and the man. Some of that may be true of Obama but in the case of Hillary I truly believe she is a blood thirsty psychopath. A true neo-con at heart.

The so-called political left of the 20th century has been the leader in war but the so-called right has been more than happy to go along and created their own agenda within the Warfare State to suit their own political structures.

Anarchists among others on the radical liberty side of life tend to see so called politics if you will as horizontal meaning wide spread, decentralized, self organizing, grass roots, even mutually beneficial as opposed to Statism politics that is vertical or dominated by topdown structures that abhor widespread individualism of a liberty kind but demand narrowed obedience and compliance to collective wills. Thus I see the political right and political left as collectivists in their own right. Only the rhetoric differs but the outcome to human liberty the same.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Before individuals can have such freedoms they have to live in economic and political systems that allow such freedoms to flourish. If we put our individual rights first and turn our backs on the oppressed in other countries then we are a selfish people who the world despises. At the same time we have to accept that there's only so much we can do and ultimately people under the thumb of oppressive regimes must stand up for themselves. We can't take them all in nor can we fight their battles or instill our cultural values on them.

@vantexan @BrownArmy pasted my signature in response to an inside joke.

I like your post though - it is a dilemma for someone working on a budget.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
That was Trump's reaction and I think that would be most people's reaction.
He seems like a doting father and grandfather.

I think Trump wanted to respond and show personal strength and the feckless strike was their alternative to be measured and proportional. And guess what, his polls were up today. Go figure.

I don't think (and certainly hope) that Trump has any desire to get any more involved in the Mid-East than we already are.

Therein lies the problem - if Trump was just waving his 59'' cruise missile johnson, that's one thing.

But, what's next?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Not at all.

But, pick your battles.

We (USA) can't pick them all.

I just find this newfound talk about the horror of 'babies' a little disingenuous.

In light of the united silence of both the political left and political right in regard to drone strikes, I would wholly agree. I think it hypocrisy on some here to call me "indifferent" when I was speaking out about the innocent children killed by drone strikes and they sat silent. Who was indifferent then?

The tragic and unnecessary death of children from this Sarin gas attack regardless who did it pales in comparison the loss of life among children by drone strikes inflicted by our gov't. Gas or Bomb, why is how they died the focus and not the fact that they died. Sarin Gas is a misdirection, look over here while we ramp up drone strikes over there.

A note about that link I embedded. Things are getting so bad that even the John Birch Society is turning antiwar and calling out Trump for drone strikes. They aren't even buying into the Red Scare tactics and they created that marketplace.

Oh yes, times they are a changing!
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
You've yet to figure out the difference between the State and a self organizing institution. Once there myself. The State requires compliance and thus force becomes a necessity as the State become the principle purpose and not the people themselves. The people are sacrificed if need be to insure the State itself prevails and continues no matter what. Debt to the unborn 3 generations out is a good example of this.

A self organizing institution is voluntary and exists as a community function to support a mutual aid. The people are the ultimate purpose and such institution serve the needs of the people as a community. The State does not do this but compells the people into service to the State.

Human self organizing institutions exist as a voluntary expression of community and not a dogmatic compulsory arm for the purpose of some orthodox nationalism. Such don't need flags, pledges or other symbols for public loyalty displays nor is some public profession necessary to prove ones devotion. Quite often just the opposite. Maybe this is another reason our founding fathers never saw fit to create pledges or national anthems for patriotic demonstrations. It was more about the local, people and place and not so much the national. This would come later.

This is exactly why I see no real difference between people of the left and people on the right. Their idea of organizing are compelled by force and not by voluntary choice.

As for your brother, anarchy literally means no ruler and thus by its nature most anarchists are not alike but may share a few common traits. McVeigh for example was created by the Military State and then one of its own dogs turned around and bit the owner on the hand. I have no interest in getting in the middle of that. As for meat, I still enjoy a good steak but I also realize some arguments by so-called vegans about animal treatment are not without some merit.

In the case of right wingers and war, when right wingers are out of the way, the warfare state of the left comes shining through, Obama's 8 years are solid proof of that. The murdering bitch Hillary would have been even worse. Seems Trump is fast becoming a disappointment but I also understand the difference between the office and the man. Some of that may be true of Obama but in the case of Hillary I truly believe she is a blood thirsty psychopath. A true neo-con at heart.

The so-called political left of the 20th century has been the leader in war but the so-called right has been more than happy to go along and created their own agenda within the Warfare State to suit their own political structures.

Anarchists among others on the radical liberty side of life tend to see so called politics if you will as horizontal meaning wide spread, decentralized, self organizing, grass roots, even mutually beneficial as opposed to Statism politics that is vertical or dominated by topdown structures that abhor widespread individualism of a liberty kind but demand narrowed obedience and compliance to collective wills. Thus I see the political right and political left as collectivists in their own right. Only the rhetoric differs but the outcome to human liberty the same.
In a perfect world we'd have what you describe. I just don't believe in a world with 7 billion people, racial, ethnic, economic divisions, greed, lust for power and dominance, etc, etc, we'll ever have what you envision and it would be too impractical and unwieldy to implement. What really concerns me is that in this country so many now seem bent on tearing it apart over every historical wrong and modern communications is the medium being used to accomplish that. The lack of economic opportunity for many is building huge resentment towards those that have anything and it just seems we're headed towards a French Revolution type scenario. Hopefully not in my lifetime but the last time we were this divided we had a civil war. If the U.S. ever devolves into that the whole world might meltdown. Hope I'm wrong.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
In a perfect world we'd have what you describe. I just don't believe in a world with 7 billion people, racial, ethnic, economic divisions, greed, lust for power and dominance, etc, etc, we'll ever have what you envision and it would be too impractical and unwieldy to implement. What really concerns me is that in this country so many now seem bent on tearing it apart over every historical wrong and modern communications is the medium being used to accomplish that. The lack of economic opportunity for many is building huge resentment towards those that have anything and it just seems we're headed towards a French Revolution type scenario. Hopefully not in my lifetime but the last time we were this divided we had a civil war. If the U.S. ever devolves into that the whole world might meltdown. Hope I'm wrong.

That's nuts - you're describing the worst fears of the 'liberals'.

What's it going to take for like-minded people to get together and have a picnic, and decide that our government doesn't work for us...

Get back to me.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
That's nuts - you're describing the worst fears of the 'liberals'.

What's it going to take for like-minded people to get together and have a picnic, and decide that our government doesn't work for us...

Get back to me.
It certainly has happened all throughout history. Are we so evolved that it couldn't happen in the future?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
In a perfect world we'd have what you describe. I just don't believe in a world with 7 billion people, racial, ethnic, economic divisions, greed, lust for power and dominance, etc, etc, we'll ever have what you envision and it would be too impractical and unwieldy to implement. What really concerns me is that in this country so many now seem bent on tearing it apart over every historical wrong and modern communications is the medium being used to accomplish that. The lack of economic opportunity for many is building huge resentment towards those that have anything and it just seems we're headed towards a French Revolution type scenario. Hopefully not in my lifetime but the last time we were this divided we had a civil war. If the U.S. ever devolves into that the whole world might meltdown. Hope I'm wrong.

But aren't you really at the end of the day trying to create a perfect world yourself? The world is broken and it's my job, my destiny to fix it and make it right! That is what you are really saying.

The world can never be perfect because everyone's idea of perfection is different. The conflict arises when we try and force the other guy into our own perfection and thus to protect themselves they try and do the same to us. As a reaction we fight back to do the same. It creates a never ending cycle of violence and there are those who know how to profit from this and they twist the knobs to keep it all going. Out of fear, we continue to make it all work.
 
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
But aren't you really at the end of the day trying to create a perfect world yourself? The world is broken and it's my job, my destiny to fix it and make it right! That is what you are really saying.

The world can never be perfect because everyone's idea of perfection is different. The conflict arises when we try and force the other guy into our own perfection and thus to protect themselves they try and do the same to us. As a reaction we fight back to do the same. It creates a never ending cycle of violence and there are those who know how to profit from this and they twist the knobs to keep it all going. Out of fear, we continue to make it all work.
Perfect world? I'm saying we should "referee" to some extent because if there's one thing humans have proven over millennia is they fight wars. It's never going to stop. And some do profit from it. Not a vice on Earth that someone isn't profiting from. Which is why I don't accept Utopianism.
 
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