Contract proposals for 2018

[brownIEman]

In the wake of this most recent discussion, I will endeavor to make my first "contract proposal" in this thread, because I initially saw it as a diversion and "meaningless fluff".

Since my initial reaction to this thread, I have saw fit to assist TU in their contract pledge drive, as well as attended my Local's meeting on the subject several Sundays ago.
I have also had some candid conversations with some of the people who will be at "the table".

My thought process was, and is, that anything we can do to engage the members in order to wake them up, is a good thing no matter who is doing it.

So with that in mind, I propose National Master language (much like Article 40 that supercedes any forward language, Rider, or addendum) that eliminates all bonus/incentive programs company-wide.

This is probably a good idea for employees in the long run. It would however remove any remaining financial incentive for drivers to perform at their best every day and would inevitably thereby increase costs for the company (not by a ton sure, but still). Is there anything you would be willing to offer in return? (just curious)

 

[Coldworld]

Runner- Gunners

Not gonna be happy

 

[Coldworld]

This is probably a good idea for employees in the long run. It would however remove any remaining financial incentive for drivers to perform at their best every day and would inevitably thereby increase costs for the company (not by a ton sure, but still). Is there anything you would be willing to offer in return? (just curious)

Nothing needs to be "given" for this.... do it in the name of safety and service... how many fools get hurt every year trying to chase some stupid metric that seems to chance whenever the company wants it to...most of the people I know who bonus (the few that still do) are gamers....and almost all have had multiple injuries AND surgeries over the years.... it is a coincidence??? I don't think so , at least in my old pkg center..

 

[upschuck]

Not every hub has them, and again, that is a seperate system that was not designed to tie in with the time study/DIAD/GTS systems. The data could be merged but would require alot of coding.

You make a lot of excuses to screw the hourlies.

 

[Bubblehead]

You make a lot of excuses to screw the hourlies.

It's counter-intuitive for him acknowledge that he was part of a system, that by in large, was an illusion that he bought into during his career.

Like I said before, the only purpose these arbitrary metrics serve is to hypnotize as many as possible, both driver and manager, to "chase the rabbit".

I will say that I appreciate his candor and observations from behind the firewall, as well as his gentlemanly posting style.
It's always wise to listen to opposing view points.

 

[brownIEman]

You make a lot of excuses to screw the hourlies.

Not really. As I said earlier, if UPS were to write the code to combine these data systems, do you really think it would wind up with a measurement that would "screw the hourlies" as you put it, any less than the current one does? I find that a tad naive.

But I get where you are coming from. We have very different perspectives. If you have read any of my posts where I talk about the few drivers who went out of their way to screw the company, you'll notice the immediate reaction I always get is a basket of excuses.

It's counter-intuitive for him acknowledge that he was part of a system, that by in large, was an illusion that he bought into during his career.

Like I said before, the only purpose these arbitrary metrics serve is to hypnotize as many as possible, both driver and manager, to "chase the rabbit".

I will say that I appreciate his candor and observations from behind the firewall, as well as his gentlemanly posting style.
It's always wise to listen to opposing view points.

Again, your view oversimplifies things. You view the systems as designed only to create illusions and as upschuck says, screw the hourlies. I believe the systems were designed, at least initially, with a much broader purpose in mind. I fully admit that my view is very likely prejudiced by my experiences within the culture and information I was fed on a daily basis. Are you willing to admit the possibility that yours may likewise be effected by the culture you operate in? Or are you so sure your view is totally objective and correct?

And thanks for the kind words. I try .
I also appreciate your willingness to exchange in what can be spirited debate without resorting to churlish name calling against management that so many on this board go directly to.

 

[Coldworld]

You make a lot of excuses to screw the hourlies.

It's what they do...

 

[upschuck]

Not really. As I said earlier, if UPS were to write the code to combine these data systems, do you really think it would wind up with a measurement that would "screw the hourlies" as you put it, any less than the current one does? I find that a tad naive.

No, I realize ups is a money grubbing company that cares for nothing but the quarterly profit.

 

[Coldworld]

It's counter-intuitive for him acknowledge that he was part of a system, that by in large, was an illusion that he bought into during his career.

Like I said before, the only purpose these arbitrary metrics serve is to hypnotize as many as possible, both driver and manager, to "chase the rabbit".

I will say that I appreciate his candor and observations from behind the firewall, as well as his gentlemanly posting style.
It's always wise to listen to opposing view points.

You mean he presents ideas better than that scrub "i.e. Boogeyman " kid supervisor that frequents here often that I have on ignore??

 

[Jkloc420]

You mean he presents ideas better than that scrub "i.e. Boogeyman " kid supervisor that frequents here often that I have on ignore??

yea, you got it

 

[Coldworld]

It's what they do...

A person would be an absolute idiot if they wouldn't think a corporation, especially a corporation with union employees, would do everything in their power to lie,cheat,and steal from their workers... both union AND non- union. This would also including having in place an "allowance " system that can be manipulated by the company to be anything they want it to be...answer me this one question i.e. Man, a few years ago I had a time study and I actually gained close to an hour( putting me +15, -15 everyday... that lasted about 2 weeks and mysteriously the numbers went back to where they were... when I questioned a few sups about it I received a head shake and a " I don't know, I really don't."....the company didn't like the time I was "given " so they pushed a few buttons and poof, everything was gone... just an example of a company lying, cheating, and stealing.... I'm sure there are other examples others could give....

 

[brownIEman]

Nothing needs to be "given" for this.... do it in the name of safety and service... how many fools get hurt every year trying to chase some stupid metric that seems to chance whenever the company wants it to...most of the people I know who bonus (the few that still do) are gamers....and almost all have had multiple injuries AND surgeries over the years.... it is a coincidence??? I don't think so , at least in my old pkg center..

That's a fair position. I will say it would add costs to the company and effect its bottom line. Probably not enough to put the company in the red, but the point is that UPS does not make an infinite amount of money and if you raise costs in enough areas, even in small increments, without allowing some cost containment in others, UPS will eventually get into the red.
In my experience while runners had some safety concerns they were not more than the average enough to undue the value they brought to the company by performing better than others. (in other words, even with higher overall accident injury costs, the runners are still more profitable for the company than the average driver)
2 examples from the center I worked with. The biggest runner I ever knew was a guy who would take out a 9 or 10 hour day and get it done in 6 hours all the time. Ran and jumped everywhere I have no doubt. Huge bonus hound. 20 plus years, never one injury. (I had a really fun conversation with a steward one time who was giving me crap about how all of the center management team looked the other way at the way this guy worked. I told him, I had no choice, the contract states that I have to give due consideration to each drivers physical ability when looking at performance and this guy was just naturally physically capable of way more than most people. I was just messing with him but I loved the look on his face! good times)

Anyway, my second example is really sad. On the other end of the spectrum, I had a cover driver who was one of the absolute worst in the building. 3 hours over allowed for him was a good day (this is in a center were the measurements were screwed up enough that 1 hour over was probably about right for most routes - yes, I am admitting it has been getting more screwy) And he always used safety as an excuse to go slow. If I rode with him he would try to move at a slow pace, and even when I rode with him and never said a damn word, just by being in the seat he would always run 2 hours or less over, despite his best efforts. Now, you would think this guy would be the safest driver in the center. About 3 months after I quit the company I had lunch with one of the other On Roads from the center and he told me the story of how this snail of a driver turned left in front of a mortorcycle with a guy driving and that guys girlfriend riding on the back. The guy was killed instantly and the girl went to the hospital in critical condition.

 

[Jkloc420]

That's a fair position. I will say it would add costs to the company and effect its bottom line. Probably not enough to put the company in the red, but the point is that UPS does not make an infinite amount of money and if you raise costs in enough areas, even in small increments, without allowing some cost containment in others, UPS will eventually get into the red.
In my experience while runners had some safety concerns they were not more than the average enough to undue the value they brought to the company by performing better than others. (in other words, even with higher overall accident injury costs, the runners are still more profitable for the company than the average driver)
2 examples from the center I worked with. The biggest runner I ever knew was a guy who would take out a 9 or 10 hour day and get it done in 6 hours all the time. Ran and jumped everywhere I have no doubt. Huge bonus hound. 20 plus years, never one injury. (I had a really fun conversation with a steward one time who was giving me crap about how all of the center management team looked the other way at the way this guy worked. I told him, I had no choice, the contract states that I have to give due consideration to each drivers physical ability when looking at performance and this guy was just naturally physically capable of way more than most people. I was just messing with him but I loved the look on his face! good times)

Anyway, my second example is really sad. On the other end of the spectrum, I had a cover driver who was one of the absolute worst in the building. 3 hours over allowed for him was a good day (this is in a center were the measurements were screwed up enough that 1 hour over was probably about right for most routes - yes, I am admitting it has been getting more screwy) And he always used safety as an excuse to go slow. If I rode with him he would try to move at a slow pace, and even when I rode with him and never said a damn word, just by being in the seat he would always run 2 hours or less over, despite his best efforts. Now, you would think this guy would be the safest driver in the center. About 3 months after I quit the company I had lunch with one of the other On Roads from the center and he told me the story of how this snail of a driver turned left in front of a mortorcycle with a guy driving and that guys girlfriend riding on the back. The guy was killed instantly and the girl went to the hospital in critical condition.

geez, you need to shorten this

 

[brownIEman]

geez, you need to shorten this

Sure.
Company perspective:
Runner gunners very very good!
Cheater slacker slugs very very bad!

 

[Jkloc420]

Sure.
Company perspective:
Runner gunners very very good!
Cheater slacker slugs very very bad!

you did it

 

[dudebro]

No, I realize ups is a money grubbing company that cares for nothing but the quarterly profit.

That is the influence of Wall street. Once publicly traded, it's your duty to think this way. That's why I have always appreciated the need for the Teamsters as a counterparty, even though I was never a Teamster.

 

[Bubblehead]

That is the influence of Wall street. Once publicly traded, it's your duty to think this way. That's why I have always appreciated the need for the Teamsters as a counterparty, even though I was never a Teamster.

This ^^^ , well said.

 

[TaylorSwift]

This.

And...

a) A raise for PTers from $10.00/hr to $15.00/hr.

b) More Art 22.3 positions.

Forget about raise. David Abney is spending your ca$h on me, babes Can't wait to see my pretty face on your trucks. Some like it big and brown

 

[brownIEman]

Forget about raise. David Abney is spending your ca$h on me, babes Can't wait to see my pretty face on your trucks. Some like it big and brown

On the plus side, I suddenly feel less guilty about my detailing posts on the thread...

 

[Article 3]

That is not my recollection. I remember the self directed stuff going out with Oz at the end of '96 and being gone prior to the '97 strike. But it was more than 20 years ago and I am not claiming perfect recall, I can only go by my recollection.
Well, I can't fault your math on being 21 in 95 and 43 now, although I have no idea how I would have known prior to you telling me that you were only 21 in '95. Pardon me for asking a question.



It works in the sense that the company remains profitable year over year. As it stands it is not infinitely sustainable in that no matter how large the ecomerce revolution makes the small package delivery market, when UPS' share gets to 0, well in multiplication 0 X N still equals 0 no matter how big N is.



I agree, and this is a large part of why it is workable, in that we can make money, but it is not sustainable.
And yes, most drivers are trying to work in the best interests of the employer and give good suggestions on their dispatch.

There are some drivers however who do not give good input on their routes, and many who do not give good input all of the time. Just one example: In 2006 I was on a PAS deployment team doing 3 day training/trace rides with drivers getting PAS/EDD for the first time. Every evening after the rides, we would take a stack of suggestions from drivers about their trace and review them, make changes in the system in response, and then write up a description of what we did and place the form back in the drivers DIAD slot for the following morning. I remember spending a late night trying to fix a concern of a driver that one particular address range was not his work but kept getting back on his car, his note saying he wants it removed NOW!!!. I could not figure it out. The address range was geographically in the dead center of his route, and giving it to neighboring drivers would pull them out of their area by a mile or so. It made no sense to me, but what do I know I was just a visiting technology guy essentially. Anyway, turns out the address range really had only one address on it, it was a large apartment complex with one entry and one exit. The driver hated it, and he was a very vocal high seniority driver so the local management for years had just given in and given it to neighboring routes which had lower seniority drivers who did not complain about being pulled out of their area to do this guys dirty work. After many hours of researching all the variables I just wrote NO! on the form, put it back in the DIAD slot and went back to the hotel. I know teamsters here are fond of saying management at UPS eat their young, I assure you management are not the only ones with this tendency.

Why would UPS's market share get to 0? We could trim the sails and dump management overboard to lighten the ship of dead weight during stormy trends.