Economic recovery package before Congress"would provide massive fiscal stimulus."

1989

Well-Known Member
When I first read this, I said to myself, "This ain't right!"

However:

2008 * 365 = 732920

732920 * 1000000 = 732,920,000,000

Of course this does not take in to account leap years and the 46 days so far this year.


And you still have spent less than 733 billion
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
If we are going to do the charity thing then pay off peoples mortgages. I know I would reward the country if they paid mine off by buying a new suv.:happy-very:

It's funny you mention this because a couple of weeks ago I watched an interview of some economist (sorry the names and place escapes me) but they pointed out that if you took the total price of TARP, the total price of the stimulus bill and there were a couple of other smaller actins taken by gov't, but if you added all those up, there was enough money to literally pay off 90% of all home mortgages in America.

Now I'm on record of being against these interventionist methods but if intervention is the course you are bound and determined to take, I want to ask this. It would seem to me that if you truly wanted to clear the books of toxic assets and give people the money to then go out and consume to stumulate the economy (no more house payment), that would seem to be the way to go about it as you'd kill 2 birds with one stone. At the same time, it grants almost immediate relief to the average person out there (no monthly house payment) and the banks realize immediate payoff of 90% of existing home mortgages and based on the story they've told us, most if not all banks because of these payoffs would be back in the black.

It's because everything but this kind of approach was taken that I really question the intent and true motive of both the democrats and the republicans in this whole mess. If anything, the average person in America will only benefit an extra $13 a week while the meat and potatoes go elsewhere. But it's those people getting the $13 a week and their children and grandchildren who will be saddled with the debt and burden to payback this massive give me program but yet it's others who recieve the money up front. By the time the average folk get to experience this money. inflation if not hyper inflation will have eroded it's value and therefore more labor will have to be expended to earn the monies to maintain current living conditions otherwise known as lifestyle while also paying off this debt. People champion low taxes but they neglect to understand that to obtain low taxes in an expanding economy, some other mechanism must account for the monetary bubble (currency influx) and that mechanism is inflation. The central bank with fiat currency and fractional reserve money creation was brougth about in 1913' and it's no coincidence that the income tax was also created that very same year. They do have a relationship in economic principles.

Intervention may provide a short term relief, but it creates a whole other set of consequences to be dealt with later that are being ignored now.

Also you championed TARP when Bush said it was necessary so where do you think we should go from here and your SUV plan doesn't count although I did get a good laugh from it!
:happy-very:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
When I first read this, I said to myself, "This ain't right!"

However:

2008 * 365 = 732920

732920 * 1000000 = 732,920,000,000

Of course this does not take in to account leap years and the 46 days so far this year.

I saw that same point made about TARP and I reacted myself just like you until the calculator total popped up.

As you said, mindboggling! I also heard this stimulus plan cost with add $10k of federal debt to every family of 4 in America. I do know that for every $3trillion in debt increase and based on the population of America being 300 million, that works out to $10k of debt to every person in America. In the last 8 years we've increased the national debt by $5 trillion and we've not finished factoring in the latest goings on. Where does it stop folks? At what point is the spending enough and we finally make the call to accept some pain for a bit in order to get our national house back in order.

Did it ever occur to anyone that the worse person to ask for the solution is the actual person who got us where we are? If a CEO killed a business, would you then hire that CEO to save it? Why then do we continually look to the same bunch of thieves in Washington to save us, when it was under their watch that got us in this pickle to begin with and I'm talking both republicans and democrats. When will we have the courage to go to the polls and send a real message to Washington?
 

Sammie

Well-Known Member
"Midnight at the Museum"

Obie Won is coming to our Museum of Natural History Tuesday to sign Santa's Wish List... :why: which I find interesting in that it will take 36 hours to read but only 12 hours were allotted...

Hope none of the terradactyl's come to life!
 

1989

Well-Known Member
For a mere 372 billion we could have bought Exxon Mobil and not worry about winfall profits. Suspend the dividend, employed 1,000,000 people at $40,000 a year. Build pipelines, work on energy policy, and break even or have a little profit at the end of the year.
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
The Economic Recovery Act is far from perfect. It will preserve or create fewer jobs than it should have. On the whole, however, it is well designed to provide substantial stimulus quickly. Where compared to past stimulus packages, it is probably the best package to combat a recession that we've had in the last 30 years.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
The economic recovery act is pitiful. The wrong thing for the Government to do is confiscate wealth and spend it how they see fit. In the end all the Government is trying to do is avoid a period of deflation by causing inflation.
In the real world we need both times to allow markets to find their true values. By the very nature this period of inflation the Government is trying to create rewards the bad behavior of consumers as well as Government in effect by shrinking the value of debt. The Government wants to brag about letting us keep 18 dollars a week more from this pitiful little tax cut. The Government has you people fooled into thinking that a ten year road repair project will provide some type of economic jolt to the economy or the confiscation of wealth from the citizens of one state and giving it to the government of another state is somehow a just thing. . It is beyond funny reading the defense by some. You want a real recovery you should force the Government to get out of the way. We should demand that the Government reduce regulation. We should demand the Government give us back our economic freedoms. We should repeal the 16th amendment. We should demand the Government end all federal welfare to include social security and minimum wages. If we allowed the individual to pursue their self interests it would benefit the group as a whole to borrow a phrase from someone much smarter than myself.
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
The economic recovery act is pitiful. The wrong thing for the Government to do is confiscate wealth and spend it how they see fit.
The founding fathers thought otherwise.

In the end all the Government is trying to do is avoid a period of deflation by causing inflation.
How is it trying to do that?

In the real world we need both times to allow markets to find their true values.
Have you ever heard of the "liquidity trap?"

By the very nature this period of inflation the Government is trying to create rewards the bad behavior of consumers as well as Government in effect by shrinking the value of debt.
Huh?
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
We should demand that the Government reduce regulation....We should demand the Government end all federal welfare to include social security and minimum wages.
you-are-too-funny-ag1.gif
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
If only these quotes were from our founding fathers we could use them as a guide on the Governments role in the redistribution of wealth. Oh wait these are the words of our founding fathers.


“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”


“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”

“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”


“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."


“[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”


“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.”


“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety.”

“The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
Fox News Personality Spreading Stimulus Falsehood

Fox News' Bill Sammon - echoing a falsehood previously forwarded by several other Fox News hosts and reporters - claimed that the Economic Recovery Bill protected mouses in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's district .

The bill, in fact, contains no language allocating funding to protect the salt marsh harvest mouse in San Francisco wetlands.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200902150006?friend=h_latest
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
Stimulus Package Opinion



Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now we are trusting the economy of our country and our banking system tothe same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Fox News Personality Spreading Stimulus Falsehood

Fox News' Bill Sammon - echoing a falsehood previously forwarded by several other Fox News hosts and reporters - claimed that the Economic Recovery Bill protected mouses in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's district .

The bill, in fact, contains no language allocating funding to protect the salt marsh harvest mouse in San Francisco wetlands.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200902150006?friend=h_latest

Looks like somebody just woke up from a 5 day drunk!

We put that mouse myth to bed last week so roar about something else there cowardly lion.

Hey Cowardly Lion, instead of spending so much time at HillaryClinton.co....I mean mediamatters, why not spend some time at a real progressive/liberal websites and do some waking up about what's really going on with your messiah.

Martin Wolf started off his Financial Times column for February 11 with the bold question: “Has Barack Obama’s presidency already failed?” The stock market had a similar opinion, plunging 382 points. Having promised “change,” Mr. Obama is giving us more Clinton-Bush via Robert Rubin’s protégé, Tim Geithner. Tuesday’s $2.5 trillion Financial Stabilization Plan to re-inflate the Bubble Economy is basically an extension of the Bush-Paulson giveaway – yet more Rubinomics for financial insiders in the emerging Wall Street trusts. The financial system is to be concentrated into a cartel of just a few giant conglomerates to act as the economy’s central planners and resource allocators. This makes banks the big winners in the game of “chicken” they’ve been playing with Washington, a shakedown holding the economy hostage. “Give us what we want or we’ll plunge the economy into financial crisis.” Washington has given them $9 trillion so far, with promises now of another $2 trillion– and still counting.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson02122009.html

This from the Washington Post, reporting on Secretary Tim Geithner's appearance before the Senate Finance Committee on Feb 10, 2009.

"I do not believe we can put ourselves in position of raising the prospect where government comes in and directly manages at great detail the choices [companies] make," Geithner said. "Ultimately, we will end up costing the economy and taxpayers much more."

Geithner said that he is "deeply offended" by "many of the judgments" top executives have made, clearly referring to big bonuses and other perks. "But the important offsetting obligation we have is to not create the prospect that the government is going to come in and make decisions for institutions that want to remain in private hands," he said.

The bottom line is, companies can take money from the Federal government, then go out and hire cheap labor abroad so as to make the maximum profit. The American worker, it would appear, is once again left in the cold in this nifty piece of bypass surgery. Why is this any different than the Liar's Loans made famous by the subprime scandal?

That an American Secretary of the Treasury could be so unconcerned by this -- 'cavalier' is indeed the correct word -- should set aside any doubt that the Obama administration is a worthy follower to the Clinton and Bush administration in its unconcern towards the draining of the nation's wealth.

http://www.counterpunch.org/niranjan02112009.html

I may disagree with some of these folks in areas but one thing they got it dead right on is that the stinch of death and disease that Washington DC was prior to Jan. 20th is still there and sadly even growing. At least the so-called libs/progressives have the courage to face facts and that in itself is a hopeful sign.

Ronald Reagan pulled a huge con job on true small gov't/limited gov't believers from 1980' to 1988' and a lot of us woke up and realized the true about our so-called 2 party system. If you are true to the beliefs of doing what is right by the American citizen first and foremost, I believe Obama is your wake up call like Reagan was ours. You are being lied too!



but wait!


And then 6 months before the fact, Bill Kristol (at the 4 minute mark) got it right about the messiah as we now see with it nearly one month into his adminstration. His policy is the old Bush policy!

Published: Friday, Feb. 06, 2009
Responding to a request by President Barack Obama, top military and diplomatic advisers on Iraq have submitted a report to the White House that spells out the risks of drawing down U.S. forces in Iraq over periods as long as 23 months, two defense officials told McClatchy.

You see cowardly lion, the problem is Washington DC itself. It's own power and desire to preserve that power is at the heart of all of this and the first step in making a tiger into a pussycat is to de-fang and de-claw and this means vast de-centralization. The matrix truly is a lie!

Your idea is to further empower Washington and the first rule of politics is that politics is like a pedulium and it will at some point swing back the other way. In the meantime, the average american who is just out to live their lives will suffer under the increasing weight of both democrat and republican excess who further consolidate power more and more in Washington and with that come the thieves and liars who hope to profit from it all. We can't because we're to busy working our butts off scratching out a life for ourselves and the harder we work, the more they take from us to pass it on to themselves!

Did you ever once entertain the idea for example if there were no legal tender laws and that individual citizens or even communities could establish means of commerce transactions among themselves? Yeah, it's radical but it sure would be hard if not impossible to create nationwide economic bubbles and clearly not ones of global proportion. For african americans, they would no longer have to crawl for white man money if you will as they could create their own economies and build their own wealth with in themselves based on their own fruits of labor. Who would in their right mind want to give that up for white man's welfare? :surprised: to all you white people tired of welfare taxes. Are you thinking yet? Talk about true emancipation! I could argue very strongly that you cowardly lion are the real racist and the real slave master who refuses to grant true freedom to an oppressed people. All that you do and say only maintains and strengthens the master's plantation. I bet you ride a horse and carry a whip too!

Did it ever occur once to your thought process that by virtue of legal tender laws making the federal reserve note the monopolistic money of choice and that by a central body in the Federal Reserve Bank has monopolistic control over every aspect of economic life and to now complete the schrade, we continue to make the chief economic oversight and enforcement person in the Sec. of Treasury a person from the Central bank ranks or from it's favorite son in the Wall Street elite? I wonder how they would feel about African Americans creating their own wealth and their own economy and being free men equals in our society? I'd bet the so-called drug problem in the african american community would almost disappear as the motive to more honest, worthwhile and positive pursuits would prove more rewarding along with the obvious importance of seeking a better education or skill sets.

You continue to demand and defend gov't oversight levels that over time only creates bubbles and crisis that further require gov't to further increase it's power. Even in the current crisis, it goes back and forth as to who caused it, republicans or democrats and most honset folks know and admit the fault is about equal on both sides. But the real root cause we've yet to admit to ourselves is that it was gov't itself that is the culprit of this crisis. When the likes of an Enron or other disaster in the private sector, we are quick to demand people are fired and the doors of that business closed for good. Yet we lack the courage to make that same judgement when bad things happen in the public space.

What would you expect to find the next morning if you asked a gang of foxes to guard your hen house? Did it ever once occur that the real push behind more regulation are certain characters pushing to tighten their monopoly and cartel control over our economy?
:surprised:

Stop wasteing so much time on mediamatters because for once the real truth really is out there!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Stimulus Package Opinion



Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now we are trusting the economy of our country and our banking system tothe same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey.

Very good Moreluck! You might come around yet!
:wink2:
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Stimulus Package Opinion
Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.

Now we are trusting the economy of our country and our banking system tothe same nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling whiskey.

Urban legends.....:rolleyes:
 

trickpony1

Well-Known Member
I haven't read all 79 posts in this thread and maybe some one has already mentioned it but I will mention it any way.......

I think we (US citizens) are in for a big surprise when this bill passes.

"Why?", you ask. Because it is not uncommon for our trusted senators and representative to attach other bills to the end of bills like this and "sliding" them through to be approved. How many of the voting senators and representatives do you think read all 1000 pages of this stimulus bill?

I've been told a bill got tacked on to the end allowing our medical records to be public information and accessible on the internet.

I do know that one of the states that allows triple trailers had that language tacked on to the end of some obscure bill and then slid it through knowing the voting partys probably won't read the entire language. I just guessing but the company probably whispered in the ear of the author of the triples bill and made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
 
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