Economic recovery package before Congress"would provide massive fiscal stimulus."

1989

Well-Known Member
Don't take this as an endorsement of the current administration, but if you think Obama is stupid you really need to get a grip. He's living in a big white house on Pennsylvania avenue, while you and I are driving trucks for a living. Think about it.


I agree, but I was just talking about how he perfoms his job. When is America going to be a great place again? I expected a dump and pump scenario. (dump the money and pump the economy) We got the dump but no pump. The president is supposed to talk good things about the country, not how crappy we are. Tired of this whole poor us, poor us garbage. He needs to talk hope to get confidence into the markets.

And what are they doing with the dividends being paid on the TARP money?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Don't take this as an endorsement of the current administration, but if you think Obama is stupid you really need to get a grip. He's living in a big white house on Pennsylvania avenue, while you and I are driving trucks for a living. Think about it.

I'm not exactly driving a truck myself but your point is still valid. The other part of the equation is also this. We all can go to bed at night knowing we didn't sell our souls to the devil so to speak in order to be where we are, although there are some who love to paint UPS as the devil but I never bought that line anyway. :happy-very:

I'm pretty confident that no matter who ends up living at 1600 Penn. Ave. has to do a lot of soul selling to get there. Why else would one spend 100's of millions of dollars to take a job that only pays $200k a year plus meals, free rooming, company car and driver and an ocassional helicopter and airplane ride. Oh yeah, you get your own theme song too!
:wink2:

But then again, I guess a job where you get to kill people at will and get away with it might have great appeal to some!
:surprised:

yeah I said it, so what!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
A very good article IMO on the economics of the crisis. Just some of the article:

The loose credit policies of the Greenspan years have led to consequences that fit in well with the Austrian view. During Alan Greenspan’s reign as chairman of the Fed, he maintained a loose monetary policy punctuated with generous injections of extra cash in times of crisis, such as the Asian financial crisis of 1997 and the collapse of the hedge fund Long Term Capital Management. This easy credit fed into the excesses of the dot-com era, which led directly to a stock market crash and recession in 2001.
Federal Reserve policy was also instrumental in inflating the housing bubble and creating the current recession. As the economist Mark Thornton points out, Alan Greenspan pushed interest rates down to unprecedented levels in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, which resulted in historically low mortgage rates. The fallout of the dot-com collapse led to massive losses, but the recession was mild, as the Fed’s easy money pumped up a real estate bubble just as the NASDAQ bubble unwound. The low rates led to increased borrowing for homes on a massive scale. House prices soared, but when reality eventually reasserted itself, they fell sharply, a process which culminated in last fall’s financial crisis.
Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, which bought mortgages and resold them as securities under an implicit government guarantee, certainly abetted the housing bubble, as did the Community Reinvestment Act, which pressured banks into increased lending to disadvantaged groups at the cost of loosened lending standards. Perhaps these mechanisms helped to funnel cheap credit into the housing sector which would otherwise have created mal-investment elsewhere in the economy. But blame for the industry-wide decline in lending standards cannot be placed solely with the CRA: Lax credit standards are virtually inevitable when a massive amount of cheap money is looking for something to do.
Bolstering the Austrians’ credibility is the fact that Austrian school economists such as Mark Thornton, Frank Shostak, and Christopher Meyer warned of the housing bubble relatively early on in the process (in 2003-04). Likewise, Ludwig von Mises, the originator of Austrian business cycle theory, and his student friend. A. Hayek warned of a coming depression during the boom years of the 1920s. Unfortunately, the parallels between the Great Depression and today’s troubles do not end there.
The Great Depression is often trotted out as an example of the failure of unfettered markets and the need for governmental regulation of the economy, and the same argument is being rehashed regarding today’s crisis. But like our housing bubble, the boom years of the 1920s were fueled with inflationary monetary policy. And just as in the 1920s, the current downturn is being exacerbated by misguided policy designed to alleviate the crisis.
The severity of recessions is determined by the heights reached in the boom period, but in the absence of government intervention, the adjustment process is relatively quick, and the economy can soon return to growth. As the economist Murray Rothbard taught, a serious recession in 1920–21 was met with a generally laissez-faire government response, the economy quickly returned to health, and it is now a historical footnote. The same can be said of the various panics and depressions of the 19th century.
But after the inflation-fueled boom of the 1920s, Herbert Hoover’s response to the 1929 stock market crash was aggressively interventionist from the start, as is documented exhaustively in Rothbard’s book America’s Great Depression. Hoover has been painted by historians as sitting impotently on the sidelines amid the deepening crisis, but in fact, the exact opposite is true: He had an expansive understanding of the role of government during a crisis, and he quickly set about to take aggressive action to rescue the economy.
What he actually did, though, was to take measures that seem expressly designed to thwart recovery by interfering with the economy’s ability to reallocate its resources to serve productive ends. Moreover, some of Hoover’s interventions in the wake of the 1929 crash show ominous parallels with policies being enacted to deal with the current crisis. Hoover initiated a program that kept failing businesses, including banks, afloat through emergency loans. Sickly banks on life support were pressured to expand lending despite a shortage of savings and viable projects. Measures were taken to save mortgaged property from foreclosure. Massive public works projects such as the Hoover Dam were initiated while large companies were pressured to retain staff at above-market wages. Such employment-boosting measures only served to divert capital and labor that could have been used productively by private industry into wealth-destroying make-work projects. Repeated bailouts of industry, moreover, forestalled the market’s correction process by propping up failed companies, rewarding poor decision-making, and keeping additional resources tied up unproductively.
Such measures were expanded upon by Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal, and the depression predictably ground on. Like Obama, and despite the vaunted “brain trust” of policy intellectuals serving in his administration, Roosevelt entered office without any coherent economic philosophy, and experimentally created a hodgepodge of interventions in an effort to gain some kind of traction on the economy.
In recent years academics have come to acknowledge the ineffectiveness of New Deal programs, but have largely failed to come to terms with the New Deal’s role in extending and deepening the downturn

https://web.archive.org/web/2009022...ture.org/doublethink/2009/02/18/bailout-blues

What I found interesting about the article is that the many things the various pundits point at as being the cause, Community Re-Investment Act, Freddie Mae/Fanny Mac, even catcalls of lack of regulatory oversight are in fact just symptoms, window dressing if you will to the real cause. The key focus here is something that encircles both political parties and both major political ideals that govern us but atthe same time remains aloof of any real blame at all and has remained above the spotlight in this thrashing to place blame. That root cause as the author points out IMO is the Federal Reserve Bank and federal reserve policy of monetary creation. While we blame each other or our respective political religions, they get away scott free to at some point in the future do this all over again.

A famous saying goes like this,
Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and each time expecting a different outcome!

If we look at the economic history of the United States when under a monopoly central bank that is privately owned, we Americans prove this ancient saying over and over again to be oh so true!

Funny how many people in politics will fight the so-called evils of privatization when it comes to such things as retirement, education or even medicine but the most important ingredient to all of this issues, that being economics and the ability to pay for them, are all placed into the hands of a private entity and we never dare question them or even so much as demand our Congress to just audit them so we truly know where we stand. Auditing the Federal Reserve Bank IMO is a complete bi-partisan "NO-BRAINER" and yet virtually no one accept a radical few dare utter the idea.

Audit the Fed people, Audit the Fed!
 

ups79

Well-Known Member
A very good article IMO on the economics of the crisis. Just some of the article:

https://web.archive.org/web/2009022...ture.org/doublethink/2009/02/18/bailout-blues

What I found interesting about the article is that the many things the various pundits point at as being the cause, Community Re-Investment Act, Freddie Mae/Fanny Mac, even catcalls of lack of regulatory oversight are in fact just symptoms, window dressing if you will to the real cause. The key focus here is something that encircles both political parties and both major political ideals that govern us but atthe same time remains aloof of any real blame at all and has remained above the spotlight in this thrashing to place blame. That root cause as the author points out IMO is the Federal Reserve Bank and federal reserve policy of monetary creation. While we blame each other or our respective political religions, they get away scott free to at some point in the future do this all over again.

A famous saying goes like this,


If we look at the economic history of the United States when under a monopoly central bank that is privately owned, we Americans prove this ancient saying over and over again to be oh so true!

Funny how many people in politics will fight the so-called evils of privatization when it comes to such things as retirement, education or even medicine but the most important ingredient to all of this issues, that being economics and the ability to pay for them, are all placed into the hands of a private entity and we never dare question them or even so much as demand our Congress to just audit them so we truly know where we stand. Auditing the Federal Reserve Bank IMO is a complete bi-partisan "NO-BRAINER" and yet virtually no one accept a radical few dare utter the idea.

Audit the Fed people, Audit the Fed!

For a husband and wife, who in 33 years of marriage, lived without any credit cards and no credit due other than a car(only bought when absolutely necessary) or house throughout these 33 years its beginning to piss me off.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in
common?

Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn't elected a Republican
mayor since 1961

Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1954

Cincinnati, OH (3rd)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1984

Cleveland, OH (4th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1989

Miami, FL (5th) has never had a Republican mayor

St. Louis, MO (6th)....hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1949


El Paso TX (7th) has never had a Republican mayor;

Milwaukee, WI (8th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1908

Philadelphia, PA (9th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1952

Newark, NJ (10th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1907

Einstein once said, 'The definition of insanity is doing the same
thing over and over again and expecting different results.

It is the disadvantaged who habitually elect Democrats --- yet are
still disadvantaged!

Opinion: The disadvantaged remain disadvantaged because instead of
working for it, they are looking for a liberal Democratic government to
give them something.

How can a person be a 5th generation American and still be disadvantaged
in this country?
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
The idea that the economic prosperity of a city is determined by the political affiliation of the city's elected officials is just silly.
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in
common?

Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn't elected a Republican
mayor since 1961

Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1954

Cincinnati, OH (3rd)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1984

Cleveland, OH (4th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1989

Miami, FL (5th) has never had a Republican mayor

St. Louis, MO (6th)....hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1949


El Paso TX (7th) has never had a Republican mayor;

Milwaukee, WI (8th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1908

Philadelphia, PA (9th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1952

Newark, NJ (10th)...hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1907
None of those cities have elected Democrats either, dude.
 

Big Babooba

Well-Known Member
Explanation of Stimulus Bill







Shortly after class, an economics student approaches his economics professor and says, "I don't understand this stimulus bill. Can you explain it to me?"

The professor replied, "I don't have any time to explain it at my office, but if you come over to my house on Saturday and help me with my weekend project, I'll be glad to explain it to you." The student agreed.

At the agreed-upon time, the student showed up at the professor's house. The professor stated that the weekend project involved his backyard pool.

They both went out back to the pool, and the professor handed the student a bucket. Demonstrating with his own bucket, the professor said, "First, go over to the deep end, and fill your bucket with as much water as you can." The student did as he was instructed.

The professor then continued, "Follow me over to the shallow end, and then dump all the water from your bucket into it." The student was naturally confused, but did as he was told.

The professor then explained they were going to do this many more times, and began walking back to the deep end of the pool.

The confused student asked, "Excuse me, but why are we doing this?"

The professor matter-of-factly stated that he was trying to make the shallow end much deeper.

The student didn't think the economics professor was serious, but figured that he would find out the real story soon enough.

However, after the 6th trip between the shallow end and the deep end, the student began to become worried that his economics professor had gone mad. The student finally replied, "All we're doing is wasting valuable time and effort on unproductive pursuits. Even worse, when this process is all over, everything will be at the same level it was before, so all you'll really have accomplished is the destruction of what could have been truly productive action!"

The professor put down his bucket and replied with a smile, "Congratulations. You now understand the stimulus bill."
 

Jagger

Well-Known Member
Fox special promoted numerous myths and falsehoods about Obama and the economic recovery bill
Summary: In Fox News' special, Trillion with a T, Bret Baier promoted or repeated several myths and falsehoods about President Obama and the economic recovery bill, including that some of the spending in the bill -- which Obama has now signed into law -- isn't stimulus; that the bill will lead to "the government deciding which procedures you can have and which ones you can't"; that it would prohibit any religious activity in facilities receiving money; that the Obama administration advocated cutting the defense budget by 10 percent; and that Obama admitted "there might be some pork" in the bill.


http://mediamatters.org/
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The level of frustration with gov't grows and I just love it so!!!!!!!!!!



Rick Santelli and the Rant of the Year
 

pretender

Well-Known Member
Sammie,

Thanks for your response. I was really hoping some of the folks here who championed gov't intervention, either the current plan or the earlier TARP idea under Bush, would be willing to step forward and give us their ideas of what the next steps should be if this current stimulus idea doesn't work as expected. As you can see, I'm still waiting!
:happy-very:[/QUOTE]

Well, since nobody is willing to step forward, I will take a stab at making a fool out of myself:

Long term ideas:

1) Return to the gold standard
2) Overhaul the tax code, replacing it with a flat 10% tax--no deductions
3) Create an environment that would encourage companies to manufacture here
4) No matter what form of energy there will be in the future, we still need oil for the foreseeable future--So drill, drill, drill
5) Term limits for congress
6) Never do anything at the National level that can be done at the State level, and never do anything at the State level that could be accomplished at the Local level.

Short term ideas:

1) IF congress insists on throwing money at the problem, limit it to things that keep people working:
a) Replace every vehicle in the government fleet, and award the contract evenly between the Big Three.
b) Refurbish government offices with new computer/office equipment and furniture
2) Give tax breaks to companies such as UPS to replace equipment/vehicles
3) Give property tax relief to people who have lost huge amounts of equity on their homes.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head---Okay, fire away...
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Sammie,

Thanks for your response. I was really hoping some of the folks here who championed gov't intervention, either the current plan or the earlier TARP idea under Bush, would be willing to step forward and give us their ideas of what the next steps should be if this current stimulus idea doesn't work as expected. As you can see, I'm still waiting!
:happy-very:


Are we supposed to jump at the opportunity to respond to hypo-theticals questions...when the inquier's mind is already motivated for failure?

For example...."championed Gov't intervention".....Lets call a spade a spade shall we....As far as economics is concerned, lets call it a "Gov't rescue" pkg from the failed private sector applying the idealology of trickle down. That my friend, is not hypo-thetical, that has proven to be a failure. During this period when money was to be made, three quarters of it went to the top wealthiest 1 %. Thats not Capitalism, thats Corperate-ism. If you want to talk Gov't intervention, lets talk Foriegn Policy. But everybody who supports fighting wars "for our freedom" and investing in other nations but our own looks the other way...

Here's a hypo-thetical, If this stimulus Bill is a smashing success in 4 years, are you going to vote to re-elect Obama?........:whistling.....:whistling....Well, I'm waiting...
 

chev

Nightcrawler
Dem_Stimulus.jpg

The only thing smashing about this bill is the Obama fist, down on freedom. Can't wait for the next back door underhanded thievery deal.
If he is such a great president already and his plan is so great, why has the market taken a big **** since he took office? Don't tell me it's because of Bush either. The market looks ahead not back. They have no confidence in him or this congress whatsoever period.
Remember, WE still have to pay for this.
 
Last edited:

diesel96

Well-Known Member

This picture also summerizes our past "trickle down" economics, only in this case the horse (oops, I'm mean the Donkey...thx BaBa) represents "Wealthy Corperate Wall Street Joes" and the flies represent "average Joes" sifting thru :censored2: for a piece of the American Pie.....
 
Last edited:
Top