FedEx Home wins round in Unionization efforts

[JimJimmyJames]

That would be the opening to challenge the veracity of the model.

It may all boil down to the "walks like a duck" arguement .

 

[BLACKBOX]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

DUCK!!!!

 

[bluehdmc]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

Maybe there prices/profits are determined by contract. I often sell things on ebay, have used the ebay calculator for shipping expenses, and I'd go to my local UPS store, (was formerly a mailboxes, etc.) and the price would be higher.
So last week I used the UPS time/cost calculator and got a price to ship something and the price was $9.62. I took it to the UPS store and the cost was $11.15. Going over the details, the cost to ship was the same, the fuel surcharge was higher and there was a delivery area surcharge that was $1.30 more, then there is a processing fee. of $.20. A total of $1.53.

I called the UPS store customer service # and was told they could CHARGE WHAT THEY WANTED.

I shipped something else the following week and went to a different UPS store. This time the only difference was the $.20 processing fee.Guess who's getting my business in the future? I can live with that, but to hide the charges in the fuel surcharge, (granted the difference there was $.03) and the delivery area surcharge is what ticked me off. Plus I've previously had to dig in my pocket because I can't accurately estimate the costs. Bad enough people say the costs are too high, what started me checking was someone emailed me and said the 1st item should only cost $5.99 to ship across the country.

 

[Catatonic]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

One problem - desire to work for UPS.
These owners are self-employed entrepreneurs.
As far as I know, no The UPS Store owner has expressed any desire to be a UPS employee.

 

[LED]

Imagine for a moment -

The route you have been driving for years. You build it, you caress your customers with love, you build it, you know it, and you feel it is yours.

Imagine that the route, the run, the territory is in fact yours. Towns A, B, C and D? You run them. Anyone wants to send a package there, you are the one they MUST deal with. And, when you retire, you can place a value on that route, based on multiples of annual income, and you can sell it. Hell, you can hire another driver to run it while you take a cut.

Sound great? That is FedEx.

It is also the definition of what an independent contractor is.

The only people questioning the legality of FedEx's ic MODEL IS.......drum roll...... UPS and the Teamsters. The people that make the laws - you know, that define if it is legal or not? They have already said it is legal.

Only UPS and the Teamsters are muddying the waters. And that makes us look like Tonya Harding (to paraphrase from an excellent post above)

If I have to pay $100k to get a FedEx ground route here locally, the FedEx employees are not in need, nor do they want, a Union.

And that is the way I see it.

My humble opinion:

The fedEx Ground routes that are in business districts may very well be profitable. The problem occurs if your major customers move their business to town G, which is not your territory.

Maybe FedEx ground provided such good service that you helped your main customer outgrow their facillities, and they have no choice but to move.

So then you are left with a bunch of residential deliveries spaced far apart. Your route then becomes not so profitable, and certainly not worth $100K.

So yes you can grow your route, but only inside your territory.

True independent contractors do not have to wear uniforms, can use their vehicles for other things, and do not have time constraints placed on them. If I am wrong about these rules/constraints let me know. Thats they way I understand it.

As far as being legal, it is now, but who knows how long? There are laws in the works:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1108/112008cdam1.htm

 

[UnconTROLLed]

When you think about it, UPS has almost the same requirements of contracting an IC in the form of the UPS store. They have to buy their store (route) wear approved UPS wear (uni's) and prices/profits are determined by a contract.

So its contradicting in a way they are opposing FDX model when in a way they practice the same.

You are wrong. At least here, the UPS store can charge whatever they want. One situation: someone came into the customer counter and wanted to ship something to Japan. It cost $480 at the counter, and almost $3000 at the local UPS store. They are (to say the least) crooks.

 

[BLACKBOX]

You are wrong. At least here, the UPS store can charge whatever they want. One situation: someone came into the customer counter and wanted to ship something to Japan. It cost $480 at the counter, and almost $3000 at the local UPS store. They are (to say the least) crooks.

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

 

[bluehdmc]

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

As I stated in a previous post, I contacted the customer service line for the UPS store. 800-789-4623. I was told they could charge whatever they wanted. I was also told I could place a complaint about overpricing, which I did. They also told me they wouldn't investigate until they got a number of complaints.
I'm sure the average Joe on the street, wouldn't even be aware he was getting ripped off.

A UPS store is a franchise. With that you get advertising support, marketing surveys. (they aren't going to put a franchise in an area where there is not enough traffic to support it. Or too close to another franchisee.
I used to be a mechanic and bought tools from franchisees, Snap-on, Mac, and Matco. They had to carry their franchise's tools. If the franchise didn't make a particular tool, they would often procure one from another source although snap-on wouldn't have a mac tool. I did have one get some broken ones replaced, probably because he didn't want the mac guy to stop where I worked. They could also run the route the way they wanted. If they wanted to take a Friday off they could. Can the Fedex IC's do that? They may be called "independent" but are they?

 

[Livin the Dream?]

True independent contractors do not have to wear uniforms, can use their vehicles for other things, and do not have time constraints placed on them. If I am wrong about these rules/constraints let me know. Thats they way I understand it.

Good post - but with all due respect, you are in fact wrong.

An independent contractor may in fact have more restrictions placed on them than an employee.

To be hired as an independent contractor, all of the requirements are up-front. You will deliver between this and this time. You will wear a uniform. You will not disclose proprietary information, and you will not also operate a competing business. All these requirements are specifics required by the company contracting the independent. If you agree with the terms, you try to get the contract. If you don't like the terms, you don't go for it. Very simple.

As an aside, I would almost guarantee you there is nowhere in the contract that says an independent contractor cannot use his truck for whatever he wants. What I would bet on, however, is that the contract has two separate items such as the following;

1. All vehicles will be of model year XX and newer, white, and have FedEx logos XYZ placed permanently on the exterior.

2. The FedEx logo may only be used in the commission of FedEx work.

Or something like that.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

OK..I'll admit it. I thought all UPS stores were uniformly priced. But you have to agree that UPS must have some sort of pricing standard they have to follow, whether they follow it or not whose to enforce it?

I wonder how UPS Store prices compare to FDX Kinko's?

No, I will not agree. UPS stores, at least in this area, are held to no pricing contracts or obligations. Only customer counter and UPS-affiliated services are held to UPS pricing guidelines.

Could it be different elsewhere? Sure. I'm only speaking from experience. I doubt it though.

However, good luck finding out for sure if UPS Stores are allowed to charge whatever they want when you ask them- I'm sure they don't advertise that or admit it! They are generally, like I said, crooks.

 

[Brown287]

LTD you must be a real joy come christmas and other holidays seeing that you come off as a selfish "me" orinented person. The problem with your coments in regards to Fed-Ex employees having the ability to unionize is that are completely caught up in UPS vs. Fed-Ex B.S.. If people who deliver Fed-Ex volume have low pay and zero benefits who do you think picks up the slack? Tax payers do, they dont have medical so do they just not get sick. No, we cover that to. If they dont quite make enough for rent, who covers that? We do, they dont make enough to send thier kids to college, who pays for that? We do, and the list goes on and on and on. So as a heavily taxed citizen of this country I think that companies and people like you should open up thier wallets and cover my share. However thats when people like you all of a sudden run and hide. Fed-Ex is a just another example of companies trying to pocket more profit while giveing thier employees less pay. So I guess now UPS not only has to subzidize the Post Office but Fed-Ex as well. So maybe you can answer me,why it is Fed-Ex cant compete on the same level as UPS LTD?

 

[Livin the Dream?]

LTD you must be a real joy come christmas and other holidays seeing that you come off as a selfish "me" orinented person. The problem with your coments in regards to Fed-Ex employees having the ability to unionize is that are completely caught up in UPS vs. Fed-Ex B.S.. If people who deliver Fed-Ex volume have low pay and zero benefits who do you think picks up the slack? Tax payers do, they dont have medical so do they just not get sick. No, we cover that to. If they dont quite make enough for rent, who covers that? We do, they dont make enough to send thier kids to college, who pays for that? We do, and the list goes on and on and on. So as a heavily taxed citizen of this country I think that companies and people like you should open up thier wallets and cover my share. However thats when people like you all of a sudden run and hide. Fed-Ex is a just another example of companies trying to pocket more profit while giveing thier employees less pay. So I guess now UPS not only has to subzidize the Post Office but Fed-Ex as well. So maybe you can answer me,why it is Fed-Ex cant compete on the same level as UPS LTD?

Now, without a doubt, I have heard it all. UPS/Teamsters is not only trying to save the poor souls over at FedEx who are treated so poorly they don't even have the money/energy to complain themselves, but UPS/Teamsters is doing this, out of the goodness of its' heart, to save the entire US economy.

I appreciate your clearing that up. Baaaaaa.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Good post - but with all due respect, you are in fact wrong.

An independent contractor may in fact have more restrictions placed on them than an employee.

To be hired as an independent contractor, all of the requirements are up-front. You will deliver between this and this time. You will wear a uniform. You will not disclose proprietary information, and you will not also operate a competing business. All these requirements are specifics required by the company contracting the independent. If you agree with the terms, you try to get the contract. If you don't like the terms, you don't go for it. Very simple.

As an aside, I would almost guarantee you there is nowhere in the contract that says an independent contractor cannot use his truck for whatever he wants. What I would bet on, however, is that the contract has two separate items such as the following;

1. All vehicles will be of model year XX and newer, white, and have FedEx logos XYZ placed permanently on the exterior.

2. The FedEx logo may only be used in the commission of FedEx work.

Or something like that.

Though I won't be as dramatic, duck!

What you are describing for all the world sounds to me more like an employee than an independent contractor.

And, as I have stated before, since FedEx realizes they are walking a very fine line, they are changing their contractor model.

 

[trplnkl]

No, I will not agree. UPS stores, at least in this area, are held to no pricing contracts or obligations. Only customer counter and UPS-affiliated services are held to UPS pricing guidelines.

Could it be different elsewhere? Sure. I'm only speaking from experience. I doubt it though.

However, good luck finding out for sure if UPS Stores are allowed to charge whatever they want when you ask them- I'm sure they don't advertise that or admit it! They are generally, like I said, crooks.

I don't know about the pricing structure, but have been told several times that a UPS Store can not charge a customer for dropping off an ARS or internet package, however an independent customer counter can charge what ever they want for that privilege.

 

[Dustyroads]

The "model" that Fed Ex uses in their ground operations is nothing new at all. It was borrowed from Roadway Package Service (RPS) from whom FedEx acquired its ground operations. That model was, in fact, not new. It was borrowed almost entirely by RPS from other small package companies that operated in the 1970's, two perfect examples are Exhibitors Film Delivery (EFD Express) and Merchants Delivery. All of these companies employed this model that said that contractors must deliver packages within a certain time frame, must use certain kinds of trucks, which must be labeled with certain logos and cannot be used for other purposes, that the drivers must wear certain uniforms and operate in a very specific fashion with regard to deliveries. This model was declared to be flawed by the National Labor Relations Board and the Internal Revenue Service as early as 1979, long before FedEx even was founded. This one decision rendered by a single appellate court does not change the scores of decisions that FedEx has lost before the IRS and state taxing jusrisdictions, as well as the standing decisions by the NLRB. This is, in fact, the only decision among many that FedEx has won. Obviously this decisioin will be subject to further judicial review. The determining factors in the "right to control" test include the establishment of work hours, the demand for exclusive use of equipment, the demand for uniformed drivers. These are the control tests that Federal and State agencies across the country use to make such a judgement. The entire "model" is carefully structured to avoid paying workers compensation, unemployment insurance, as well as prohibiting workers from organizing. Finally, before all of you guys in ties announce, "man, why didn't we think of that", please remember that every single national small package company that has employed the Independent Operator "model" has failed. EFD Express, Merchants Delivery, RPS, Airborne and DHL were all these types, and we see how successful they are. One cannot run a successful business when one choses to starve their employees, or non-employees as the managers would like to call them when it suits them. FedEx Ground will be no different than those that came before.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Good information.

Don't beat up on any of us too bad for using the term "model". It is only used for lack of a better word.

I think "independent" as in independent contractor should be the focus of our attention. Because the definition of independent is at the heart of this arguement.

 

[MrFedEx]

Having been at FedEx for over 20 years I can tell all of you one certainty about the company, and that's their persistence in trying to skirt the rules at every opportunity. The main reason FedEx bought RPS in the first place was because of their contractor model. RPS was screwing their drivers, and FedEx knew they could save money by continuing to do so. Here was a way to enter the ground market without unions and to shove-off every possible cost onto the contractors and away from FedEx. Fred has saved billions and made big dent in the Ground market by undercutting UPS rates. Never mind that the Ground guy looks like a Hell's Angel, doesn't speak English very well, and delivers half his packages to the wrong address 3 days late....they are cheaper than Brown, and that's all a lot of shippers care about these days.

Many people on this site just don't get the overall FedEx philosophy, which is to be the Wal-Mart of the package business. Pay lousy wages and benefits, create an anti-union environment and fire or harass anyone who even mentions the Teamsters, and make it all sound like everyone is enjoying a day at freaking Disneyland. It's a big scam, but a lot of people still buy into it. Get a clue.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

Good information.

Don't beat up on any of us too bad for using the term "model". It is only used for lack of a better word.

I think "independent" as in independent contractor should be the focus of our attention. Because the definition of independent is at the heart of this arguement.

100% dead-on correct. Here is where people get confused -

Independent contractor - focus on the word independent in this context only-

The word "independent" does NOT mean an independent person or company contractually completing services for a company.

The word "independent" DOES mean an person or company contractually completing services independent of a company.


independent of, irrespective of; regardless of; not associated with: i.e "Independent of monetary considerations, it was a promising position.
Websters -

The better term, which would clear up everything, would be to call them sub-contractors.

 

[Tornup]

I couldn't of said it better,

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have you found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.