Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?

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sawman

Guest
UPS79, You had better be scared, we all better get a lot more scare. Because if everyone keeps sitting around waiting for the IBT to save our butts, we are all going to end up with nothing.

Look, I don't have all the answers and I can not look in my crystal ball and say for sure that the APWA is the answer to our problems, but at this point, with the Company having the IBT in their back pocket. What other choices do we have.

We have to do something and fast, or else we're going down with the ship. We can not sit back any longer and wait for the IBT or anyone else to solve our problems. We have to do it ourselves, and we have to do it NOW!
 
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my2cents

Guest
In the article, "The Check's in the Mail" and in Mr. McDevitt's testimony before Congress last year, there is a Congressional Research Report referenced in both cases. A couple of highlights from this report are reproduced below.

An excerpt from Mr. McDevitt's testimony, found on page 32 of the transcript:

"According to a report from the Congressional Research Service released last week, 1 the dire financial condition of many multi-employer plans illustrates the need for meaningful reform. All seven transportation industry plans referenced in that report would fail to meet a minimum 90% funding standard if they were subjected to the same funding standards that apply to single-employer company plans today. The two worst plans barely cover half of their liabilities (54% and 48% funded, respectively). UPS has 42,000 employees in those two plans alone."

1 Trucking: Structure of the Less-than-Truckload (LTL) Industry and Legislative Issues, Congressional Research Service Report RL32257, March 5, 2004. Updated April 19, 2004

From page CRS-14:

"The unfunded liabilities in these multiemployer plans create two types of problems for participating employers. First, the unfunded liabilities represent substantial contingent liabilities for the participating firms. These contingent liabilities are particularly troublesome because the companies responsible for these liabilities assert that they cannot quantify how substantial they might be. 49 Second, the unfunded liabilities create substantial withdrawal liability. 50 Withdrawal liabilities occur when a carrier no longer has employees participating in a plan. The size of these potential liabilities is so large that carriers note that a withdrawal could materially harm their financial position. 51 The size of potential withdrawal liabilities discourages additional employers from joining a multiemployer plan and prevent firms with a small number of participants from taking action that would precipitate a withdrawal."

49 In its 2002 Annual Report, UPS's description of its obligation to multiemployer plans illustrates this problem. "We also contribute to several multi-employer pension plans for which the above disclosure information [information on assets, liabilities, and annual payments as well as assumptions used to calculate these figures] is not determinable." United Parcel Service, 2002 Annual Report, p. 39.

50 For example, Yellow Transportation described the impact of withdrawal as follows: "Under current legislation regarding multi-employer pension plans, a termination, withdrawal or partial withdrawal from any multi-employer plan that is in an under-funded status would render the company liable for a proportionate share of such multi-employer plans' unfunded vested liabilities. This potential unfunded pension liability also applies to the company's unionized competitors who contribute to multi-employer plans. Based on the limited information available from plan administrators, which the company cannot independently validate, the company believes that its portion of the contingent liability in the case of a full withdrawal or termination would be material to its financial position and results of operations." Yellow Transportation, 2002 Annual Report, p. 70.

51 Ibid.

"Black's Law Dictionary," Seventh Edition, defines
contingent liability. A liability that will occur only if a specific event happens; a liability that depends on the occurrence of a future and uncertain event. • In financial statements, contingent liabilities are usu. stated in footnotes.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
One point I would like to elaborate on from My2cents posting of Mr. McDevitt's testimony regarding the "the dire financial condition of many multi-employer plans".

That infers to me that the problem is the multi-employer plans are the problem and they are not.

It's something like 90 percent of the pension failures so far have been single employee funds, United's single employer pension fund just was allowed to go belly-up by the judicial system yesterday for instance.

The single employee funds are also the only ones that got some legistlative relief last year.

So pension funds in general (both single employer and multi-employer) are finding themselves in financial trouble and I think that underlines the true cause of underfinancing (or over benefitting) them with the baby boom generation now hitting the bottom line by retiring and stressing the benefit output.

The medical benefits financial crisis is becoming unbearable for the entire system, including that for current workers.

Look for significant concession demands by UPS regarding our benefit package in 2008.

Sawman, you are probably wrong regarding ups79's personal situation.

He happens to be in a very small local (relative to the rest of us in any of the multi-employer pensions) that is made up of exclusively UPS employees in the Chicago area which leaves him in an enviable demographic situation which should keep his personal retirement situation comfortable and solid for the rest of his life unlike most of the rest of us.

That is why he has taken such a shine to the boat rockin' you have been doing here.

He is very happy with his personal situation and for that I do not blame him.

It's fine to disagree with an idea.

It's his lack of class regarding how he talks to you that I find disagreeable.
 
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sawman

Guest
OK2,
Point taken!

If some might recall, I said that I would not be against excluding the people in these small funds from any action that the majority chooses to take.
 
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my2cents

Guest
There is multi-employer relief in H.R. 3108, a.k.a. - The Pension Stability Act of 2004. I believe Central States qualified for some relief with this temporary measure. This law is a little over a year old. One wonders if this law has made any difference in the funding levels of the plans, which qualified for the relief.
 
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sawman

Guest
As to your recent post, it stated that in 2002 CS fund was 54% funded.

I think the most recent figure out is that it is now 64% funded so it has gone up.
 
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sawman

Guest
fOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE DOUBTS THAT SOME FUNDS ARE ALREADY PAYING THE $7000.00 A MONTH PENSION, WHICH IS PROOF THAT ups IS PAYING ENOUGH INTO OUR PENSION FOR US TO GET THIS KIND OF RETIREMENT CHECK.
CHECK OUT THE POST ON TEAMSTER.NET.
ON THE UPS MESSAGE BOARD
THREAD: UPS EMPLOYEES START NEW UNION!....UPDATE
PAGE 5
POST BY: PAC317

HE IS A UPS DRIVER FROM NY AND HE POSTED WHAT THEY ARE RECIEVING RIGHT NOW.
6500-7000 DOLLARS A MONTH
100% OPTICAL, MEDICAL, AND DENTAL COVERAGE
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
Sawman,

I am not necessarily disagreeing with it being a possibility, but that somewhere they are promising it doesn't prove it is financially sound at all.

It's easy to promise it, look at the Teamsters.

The fact that far less than one percent of the workpool of UPS employees has retired in such a plan does not truly test it's long term financial viability to maintain such benefits anymore than the Teamster one did for the 3000 a month that they have been paying far far more retirees for eight full years already.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
If enough of you guys will all send me your money I will promise you 20,000 a month and will prove it by retiring under MY plan and show you proof that your money is allowing me to collect 20,000 a month plus full medical,including dental,optical with no deductibles or premiums at all!

I am willing to do this if enough of you are willing to contribute.
 
W

wkmac

Guest
OOOPPPPSSSSSS! OK, I don't think someone liked your idea. TOUCHY!!!!! If we do send you our money will you lie to us too like the current bunch does?

Hey moreluck, welcome to the fray. Does BS stand for BBQ Sauce?

Moreluck, our Emeril of Browncafe and don't think your recipes goes unnoticed BTW.
 
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wkmac

Guest
sawman,
Moreluck is dead on with her comment as you have nothing to prove your point other than to post something from an unknown poster on another website. How do we know it wasn't you for example? I'm not suggesting it isn't possible as I honestly don't know but on the flip side I have absolutely no proof that there is such a situation. Mr. Silkman warned in his email to me about all the internet rumors going around and specifically he warned about some that surrounded the pension ideas floating around. Unless you can post cold hard facts and the source of documentation to back it up you are just wasting your time with what for now the rest of us will consider as pie in the sky!

Now I want to ask a broader question to everyone and this is more a general what if than anything else. What if we did go with this new union APWA, has anyone given thought or should I say has anyone heard specifically from the folks spearheading this effort, not internet rumor, but how will this new effort go about establishing it's infastructure of union locals, etc. You don't grow union halls on trees and you don't hire BA's and local union officers with promises but you need cash. In my head I can think of a few ways but it'll have it's bumps for sure. I'm just wondering if a new effort can build it's infastructure while at the same time develop a new contract, we'll need this if we leave IBT, and still chase after UPS and the games they love to play. The pension problem is one thing for sure but there is a laundry list of issues that goes with jumping from an established union to building one from the ground up. I'm not poo-pooing the idea because IMO if anyone can do it UPSers can but will they get focused and be willing to scarfice some time and effort to do so? If you look at the level of involvement now in the IBT it would suggest the answer to the question is no but that lack of involvement may be more an example of frustration and fed up than a lack of interest. Hard to really tell at this point what the answer is but the pension is only a part of this whole deal even though the pension problem has gotten the most focus. I'd be interested in any thoughts, pro or con concerning this aspect as I believe this is a pretty good crew to bat this question around with.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
30 and out, does that mean you will or will not be sending me money?

Wkmac, depends, which do you want?

As you will be paying the bills I am willing to give you whichever you would prefer, happy lies or painful truth, your call.
 
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robonono

Guest
wkmac,

In answer to your "what if" about the infancy of a new union, and the difficulty of creating the infrastructure to handle all of the balls that need to be balanced, I would suggest that you only need to look to the IPA for some answers.

Our pilots managed to create their own union. there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that our ground operation is capable of the same independence.

Granted, there is definitely a difference of scale, with the pilots not requiring local union halls for instance, but meeting halls can be rented on an as-need basis. Office space can be rented.

Officer salaries can be minimal at first (deferred compensation) to allow the union to get off the ground. After all, the officers will be UPSers who should be willing to make a small, short-term financial sacrifice for the long-term good of everyone.

I do not see any immediate obstacle to this new union that dedicated UPSers can not overcome with their typical brown-determination.

The decertification process IMHO will be the steepest hurdle to climb.
 
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wkmac

Guest
robo,
I agree but it is something we need to think about other than just the pension. Also in the case of the pilots union the difference in shear numbers on the ground side does make it a little more difficult than on the pilots side.

You are right about meeting spaces as hotels/motels in the areas generally have good meeting space for cheap and with technology what it is you could have several good locations all connected via video link and you might even get more attendance to meetings when people only have to drive 15 or 20 minutes verses an hour or hour and a half and in some case way more than that. Long term I also think this saves money as when you factor in the total time per month a hall is actually used. Also with renting you could place your BA's office in the general geographical area he/she covers allowing for great and quicker access to the membership instead of a central location sometimes hours from the sites they serve. It's very doable but it something we need to give thought to.

OK,
I'm so use to the lies the truth would kill me. Just lie to me! Promise me that driver in the pic on the Boxer/Brief thread. LMAO!!!!!

BANG...WHAM....BOOM....
Ouch! OK honey, I won't look at that picture anymore. BUSTED..........
 
S

sawman

Guest
ups79,
DO YOU ALWAYS MAKE IT A HABIT OF BEING WRONG?
I for one am a member of the APWA, but have no desire to hold any offical position in the APWA or any other union. I have been up that road before, as I was a shop steward for the Teamsters for 10 years.

On another note, WKMAC:
You speek of what you have heard from Mr. SKILLMAN.
I assure you that Van Skillman is up to date on anything that I talk about on the net, as I know him personally. There are a lot of rumors flying on the internet, but the issue that I have talked about are issues that have been descussed with Van many times.
Due to legal restrictions Mr.Skillman is unable to talk in depth on certain issues at this time, that does not mean that he agrees or disagrees with them, but due to the position that he holds, he has to watch what he says because the APWA is not yet our bargaining agent. On the other hand the members can talk about them.
 
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