Iraq

[tieguy]

>1. When did the threat to us start?
>Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State is
>concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following
>attacks on us:
>* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
>* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
>* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
>* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
>* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
>* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
>* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
>* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
>* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
>* New York World Trade Center 2001; * Pentagon 2001. (Note that during
>the
>period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).
>2. Why were we attacked?
>Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened
>during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton
>and
>Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were
>no
>provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors,


Interesting piece. And a good reminder for us. Carter may end up being considered one of the more compassionate presidents we have ever had yet also suffered his problems with terrorism.

 

[tieguy]

And perhaps Carters weakness with the Iran hostage issue magnified on the world stage gave future terrorists the drive to carry out their attacks?

 

[tonyexpress]

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!!

Nice post Moreluck, hopefully more people realize the serious nature of this war and the current world situation.

Booyah

 

[automated]

A Defensive Culture

President Bush needs to win hearts and minds in the Pentagon too.

Link To Original Article

 

[wkmac]

And perhaps Carters weakness with the Iran hostage issue magnified on the world stage gave future terrorists the drive to carry out their attacks?

Hey Tie,
Check out The History Channel and the Heroes Under Fire series and specifically the part entitled Captain Crunch and the other part entitled Shadow Warriors. Captian Crunch follows the events of a CIA op sent to Beruit to find out who was behind the 83' US Embassy bombing. Shadow Warriors is about the CIA backing of the Mujihaden during the Soviet/Afghan war with many CIA folks directly involved being interviewed.

Both programs are worth the watch. I saw both this morning and both were just on again this afternoon. Check History Channel schedule or website to see if this will show again.

 

[automated]

Iraq Pessimism Hurts Bush, Boosts Democrats

Pessimism about the Iraq war has driven President Bush's approval rating to his lowest ever and improved Democratic prospects in fall mid-term elections, a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll shows.



Link To Original Article

 

[tieguy]

Hey Tie,
Check out The History Channel and the Heroes Under Fire series and specifically the part entitled Captain Crunch and the other part entitled Shadow Warriors. Captian Crunch follows the events of a CIA op sent to Beruit to find out who was behind the 83' US Embassy bombing. Shadow Warriors is about the CIA backing of the Mujihaden during the Soviet/Afghan war with many CIA folks directly involved being interviewed.

Both programs are worth the watch. I saw both this morning and both were just on again this afternoon. Check History Channel schedule or website to see if this will show again.

Definitely will Mac. Give me an assessment of how you think it ties in to the current discussion. The one aspect of fighting a war against terrorists and local insurgency is the war is meant to be long and demoralizing. We clearly see that aspect with this one. There are many questions to answer. Will the public continue supporting our efforts. Is the Iraqi leadership prepared to grind it out. Will the new Iraqi army take ownership of the battle ahead. Can our military maintain morale at an effective level. This war is clearly the toughest to fight because unlike a convential war its not always easy to measure progress by moving the battle line forward.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Iraq Pessimism Hurts Bush, Boosts Democrats

Pessimism about the Iraq war has driven President Bush's approval rating to his lowest ever and improved Democratic prospects in fall mid-term elections, a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll shows.



Link To Original Article

Another aspect that history will dictate. If Iraq ends up a victory where they become a freedom loving model of democracy then Bush will be the great leader that stood his ground with firm conviction. If Iraq burns in civil war then Bush will be the dumass that did not have the sense to see the writing on the wall.

Those who were great leaders in History were often one bad day away from being a total idiot. Think of the consequences of an Eisenhower losing the war at Normandy. Had Hitler not been a micromanager and thus freed up control of his reserve armor units to his front line generals then history could have been rewritten. Macarthur having the guts to attempt a beach landing near Pusan gave us the surprise and momentum needed to turn Korea. The outcome of those battles was quickly evident. Success in a war against terrorism will require a strong willingness to persevere when positive results are slow to come. Whether we debate the merits of this war This country will somehow and in some way have to learn how to effectively fight the war against terrorists/ insurgents to be able to move on from the legacy of Vietnam and Iraq. This battle will not only be one in which we deal with the issues of being a world leader but of dealing with the ghosts of Vietnam. The American public has shown a willingness to learn from Vietnam and their support of our troops has so far been terrific. But if we cannot also maintain that support for the overall mission then we could still end up losing this war. If we can not find the right Iraqi's to lead this country through its own revolution then again we are doomed to defeat. If we can somehow stay vigilant in this fight and stay the course then I believe the terrorist will be the one that someday becomes discouraged and admits his cause is futile. Time will tell. Time to get off the soapbox.

 

[mountaingoat]

Re: Iraq Pessimism Hurts Bush, Boosts Democrats

Had Hitler not been a micromanager and thus freed up control of his reserve armor units to his front line generals then history could have been rewritten.

Tie - good knowledge of WWII history. There were many aspects about Hitler that one could argue that he lost the war for himself.

And then there was Rommel at home celebrating his wife's birthday....

 

[wkmac]

Definitely will Mac. Give me an assessment of how you think it ties in to the current discussion. The one aspect of fighting a war against terrorists and local insurgency is the war is meant to be long and demoralizing. We clearly see that aspect with this one. There are many questions to answer. Will the public continue supporting our efforts. Is the Iraqi leadership prepared to grind it out. Will the new Iraqi army take ownership of the battle ahead. Can our military maintain morale at an effective level. This war is clearly the toughest to fight because unlike a convential war its not always easy to measure progress by moving the battle line forward.

I'd rather you watch it and draw your own conclusions but I will say both of these programs does connect to our present day. I'll also say this. CIA ground ops guys discovered who was behind the 83' Beirut US Embassy bombing back in the day and the Marine Compound as well but the management of CIA along with the Reagan adminstration buried the facts that were learned. In fact, had they acted on the intel, the Marine barracks bombing would have likely never happened. I do think that geo-politics elsewhere likely played into that decision as about this same time the CIA was engaged in a growing relationship in Afghanistan working with the Mujihadeen against the Soviet Union and that's why seeing the program Shadow Warriors on this Afghan efforts is so critical IMO of understanding what the policy thinking was in Washington at the time. Coldwar was more important than the Middle East and going against Muslims in Lebanon and surrounding areas could have damaged the relationship with the muslim fighters in Afghanistan. But being ignored in that time and place propelled many including Osama to conclude America was a paper tiger and thus the many terror attacks we saw globally against America throughout the 1990's that led up to 9/11. Also watching Captain Krunch makes you realize that in the Middle East there are no true friends and that betrayal is a virtue seen as strength whereas in western culture we see it as disloyal and cowardist.

 

[automated]

US launches major Iraq air attack

The US military says it has begun its biggest air offensive in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, targeting insurgents.

Link To Original Article

 

[tieguy]

Re: US launches major Iraq air attack

The US military says it has begun its biggest air offensive in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, targeting insurgents.

Link To Original Article

We don't go far enough with these exercises. We should adopt Hussiens style and hang our "trophys" up on a rack or on a pole right in the middle of faluhjah. Its apparently the only thing the insurgents understand.

 

[wkmac]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1

 

[moreluck]

Here's to a tear and a lump in your throat. Give this time to load up, it's well worth it.

Subject: Fwd: Amazing pics.


http://www.clermontyellow.accountsupport.com/flash/UntilThen.swf

 

[wkmac]

Wow Moreluck, you had to go back a ways to find this thread! Just curious but how many pages back did you have to go? I'd forgotten about it for the most part.

You also realize you're gonna stir up the "posting links again are you Moreluck!" comments.


But then again she does really serve a purpose. As I told someone recently that she does do a good job of keeping Tie watered and fed so he's happy!

 

[wkmac]

Ironic that after I posted above I went to check some news and ran across this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Now this isn't about Iraq specifically but there is a connection none the less or so it's claimed. If this turns out to be true and Bush in fact authorized it then I may have just became a supporter of Russ Fiengold's efforts that could lead toward impeachment. Like the vast majority of american's I have nothing to hide in a phone call conversation and to be honest listening to me on the phone would be a waste of tax payer dollars as I'm willing to bet the same could be said for everyone else here.

What concerns me is we are to be a nation of laws. In the immigration threads several folks have correctly pointed out that fact and they are 100% correct. Now you can like or not like the law and there is a process in which you go through to change it but to violate those laws as they stand right now makes you a criminal in that fact. The same is true even if you are the sitting President and you violate standing law, and sure the intentions may very well have been for good and sincere but you could also say that the poor Mexican crossing the boarder in the dead of night to find work and a better life for his family had just as equal good intentions.

800 years ago, we began a process to break down the longstanding concept of "Divine Right of Kings" which coming forward 500 years came to a head with the American Revolution. As a people, we stated that from henceforth we would be a nation of law where all are equal under the law. I share that same belief and I'm deeply disappointed in our President if it does turn out these alligations are true and he had knowledge of it or gave authorization to it. We have a process in this country of law and it our elected leaders begin ignoring it when it gets in the way (and Bush ain't the first by any stretch) then the great American experiment is dead.

JMHO

 

[moreluck]

"You also realize you're gonna stir up the "posting links again are you Moreluck!" comments."

wkmac....I'm not the "post linker"....remember, I'm the "cut & paster".

I didn't go too far back to find this thread. I just don't like starting a new thread when I know there is one that exists already. Waste not, want not.

 

[wkmac]

"You also realize you're gonna stir up the "posting links again are you Moreluck!" comments."

wkmac....I'm not the "post linker"....remember, I'm the "cut & paster".

I didn't go too far back to find this thread. I just don't like starting a new thread when I know there is one that exists already. Waste not, want not.

That's right, it was cut and paste. You know if you could find out on the net somewhere that has a paperdoll cutout, you might start using that as a signature line. Personally I'd think that would be a hoot! Hey, cut and paste all you want and if I can't word search to find the source I'll always just ask if I need to know further.

As for using existing threads, oh I agree. I just had forgotten about the thread to even go back to it to begin with.

c ya!

 

[Jones]

Ironic that after I posted above I went to check some news and ran across this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Some thoughts on this article from someone with better understanding of the law than I:

Thoughts on the Legality of the Latest NSA Surveillance Program

 

[Slothrop]

For a discussion on the link posted by Jones, see here:
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/05/legal-issues-governing-administrations.html

Certainly a lot to digest.