Kim Davis - The Christian Rosa Parks

brett636

Well-Known Member
There is overwhelming evidence it is genetic. And to say they are troubled is insanity. The average homosexual couple earns more than the average straight couple. 94,000 vs 86,000. The average homosexual is also more educated than the average straight person. 46% of those who identify as gay hold a college degree. While only 33% of straight people have a college degree. No balance huh?

We have mapped the entire human genome and no "gay" gene has been discovered. That sorta blows your entire "overwhelming evidence" out of the water now doesn't it? Its purported that close to 90% of all homeless teenagers in this country are gay, and what else is prevalent in the homeless community? Mental illness, which coincides to my original point. Finally, your heterosexual vs. homosexual household statistics don't hold water either given the huge disparity in numbers between both groups. It doesn't mean homosexuals are more grounded in anything as they make up less than 5% of the entire population.

You aren't loving the "sinner" by calling saying they are mentally unstable. Practice what you preach.

Its called tough love. I would argue you lack true compassion by trying to tell them they are normal as this doesn't begin to address their real issues.


So let me get this straight.

Are you saying that the way we practice Christianity has actually evolved and changed over the years? Are you saying that the portions of the Bible that we consider relevant have changed over the years?

I don't understand. I thought the Bible...the whole Bible.... was the Word of God. Now you are saying that there are parts of it....like the passages about putting menstruating women in the back yard for a week or stoning teen girls to death for losing their virginity....that no longer apply to "modern" Christianity. I just want to know who it was that conveniently decided that the Old Testament was no longer applicable but the New Testament ( at least most of it) was still important for us to follow.

And what did Jesus say about gay people?

I am going to again remind you that you are trying to drag this into a spiritual/bible debate. I have pointed out logical arguments as to why homosexuals are simply a group of people with a mental illness, but since you asked here goes. Notice in the word "Christian" it begins with the word Christ. Now at what point of the bible does the word Christ appear? That would be the New Testament. You have taken my choice of words to mean that there was Christianity before the New Testament, when in fact there was not. That was simply my point.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
I will admit that you are probably the most factually based bigot I have ever met.

He has yet to introduce any facts into this discussion.

His 'logic' consists of tenuous connections between various ideas he believes are true.

I think what you are responding to is his conviction - he seems to really, really believe what's he's writing here, and that's the saddest part.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
He has yet to introduce any facts into this discussion.

His 'logic' consists of tenuous connections between various ideas he believes are true.

I think what you are responding to is his conviction - he seems to really, really believe what's he's writing here, and that's the saddest part.

In his mind they are indeed "facts".
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
He has yet to introduce any facts into this discussion.

His 'logic' consists of tenuous connections between various ideas he believes are true.

I think what you are responding to is his conviction - he seems to really, really believe what's he's writing here, and that's the saddest part.

Says the one person who only posts in this thread to tell me I am wrong then doesn't elaborate further. I guess when you've been beat in a debate tearing down your opponent on a personal level is all you have left.
 

10 point

Well-Known Member
Was and still is one of my favorite passages in the NT but these events may well have never occurred at all.

The earliest textual appearance of this account only found in John Chapter 8 and no other gospel did not occur until the late 4th/early 5th century when it first arrives on the scene as found in the Codex Bezae which is a greek/latin text. The latin would obviously suggest these are latter written copies and translated/copied from earlier sources(?), however no sources are noted nor suggested to my present knowledge. Nor do they match to earlier known accounts found from the Gospel of John. The actual original Codex Bezae is found and solely possessed at the Cambridge University Library. This codex contains most of the 4 gospel accounts and the Book of Acts. No Pauline texts or anything else to my knowledge. The Codex Bezae account of John 8:1-12 dates to nearly 500 years after they occur and as beautiful a story as it is, it does raise doubt about their accuracy.

The earliest complete manuscripts of the whole bible, or what we think of as the bible, we actually have dates to the 4th century and are Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus and neither contain this account. Codex Sinaiticus thanks to the British Museum along with other parties is online for research purposes and the Gospel of John in Sinaiticus begins at verse 12 and concludes with verse 59. 1 thru 11 are missing entirely which is the adultress woman story.

Codex Sinaiticus can be found here and they briefly explain its place in history, what the codex consists of and then to your upper right where you see "Go To" is a drop down list under the word (Book) which displays the texts for each book in the bible as found in the codex. There is a photo copy of the actual text and to your right is an actual text reproduction and below that if there is a translation, an english translation of the text.

Now for some argument in support of the Adultress Woman story found in John 8.

Papias of Hierapolis, 70-163 AD/CE (pick your poison) was an apostolic father, Bishop of Hierapolis in what is now Pamukkale Turkey. It is suggested that in 125 CE that Papias recorded in the Gospel of the Hebrews (not the NT Book of Hebrews) an account of a woman accused of many sins and forgiven by Jesus. Gospel of the Hebrews is a syncretic Jewish-Christian text that of what exists is a collection of quotations of early christian fathers and we only have fragments of the early texts, Papias quotes being among them. Gospel of Hebrews like so many texts were rejected as canonical by the Constantine era and post Constantine orthodoxy but are still of value for understanding the greater historical context.

The next text to suggest the Adultress story is found in Didascalia Apostolorum, a christian treatise asserted to be Church Orders. It is claimed these were written by the Twelve Apostles and presented to the Jerusalem Council circa 50 CE however scholars generally agree the texts as we have them today were written around 230 CE likely by an unknown bishop and geographically source from Syria around Antioch. This text does include a quotation of an adultress type story but it does not quote John's Gospel or for that matter, any source at all.

And the last evidence in support of the adultress story, A late 4th century treatise of Church Orders, "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" contains the following quote in relation to the adultress story.



This text is found in Book II.24 and I have to say when I first read it, what jumped out at me was when I read the first 13 words, my first thought was, "wait, how many time did the elders play this game with Jesus" as the suggestion of "another woman" suggests there were many. To my knowledge there is only the story of the one but I can just see Jesus face palming and saying, "oh come on, not again!" ;)

The Constitution of the Holy Apostles dates to 375-380 CE and is believed to source back to Northern Syria around Antioch. Author is unknown but there are suggestions the author was the 4th century Eunomian Bishop Julian of Cillicia.

Until the mid 20th century, it was thought that no early church father had ever made note of the famous adultress passage but then in 1941' a discovery in Egypt included the writings of Didymus the Blind (313-398 CE) which suggested the story being in writings known to exist in Alexandria. Codex Vaticanus (4th century CE) which sources from Alexandria contain an umlaut (a special mark) at the end of John chapter 7 which suggests an alternative reading is known to exist. What that reading is or what it sez we don't know nor do we know if this suggests the missing text of John 8:1-11, the adultress story not found in Vaticanus does indeed exist in other texts dating to much older sources.

There is much more to this story historically speaking on both sides of the debates but this gives a general outline of the problem and I think IMO a good lesson as to not being so quick to be dogmatic about a biblical text and the weight of being authentic to its suggested or alleged claim. The truth is, we have no original text hand written by any apostle, prophet, partriarch or other messenger of god. At best we have a claim of written from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy............ That's the best we have folks and you can sit back, take it all on faith (as so many well meaning folk do) or you can try and noodle out for yourself and see what comes up. Even if you conclude John 8:1-11 is not authentic to the claim, it's still a beautiful story about forgiveness and still has value to make humanity better. But to me it raises a deeper fundamental question, if the text wasn't original, why would 4th century christian thinkers and later dare abandon the harsh OT dictums in the first place for a story they likely knew as untrue? Apologistic literalists would right there use that as evidence for the story being real because why would an early christian dare to tempt god by messing with his law? I know because I tired to rationalize it that way at one time but studying historical christianity much much deeper, specifically the neo-platonist gnostic christian fathers and writers and the weight of evidence to support my earlier thinking just didn't hold up.

When you learn about the early gnostic traditions and the OT god as the neo-platonic demiurge, you start seeing those influences although almost literally crushed by latter orthodoxy, their finger prints still emerge from the past even from orthodox texts. Modern christians who often argue the OT doesn't apply, has been done away with often don't realize these are gnostic arguments likely echoes from early chrisitan fathers like Marcion of Sinope who argued the OT and the OT god no longer mattered as Jesus was now our god. And since we looked at the adultress account in the Gospel of John, it is worth noting that John's gospel is often considered far more than the other 3 or the Book of Acts as a very gnostic influenced gospel and the more I read it and learn of the gnostics, the more its gnostic influences leap from its pages. Thus I can clearly see the adultress story as gnostic and likely the origins of its source.

So for those of you who attended the BC church on Sunday Morning instead of getting your sorry butt up and down to your own local church, there is the historical sermon of the day. Take it, leave it, ignore it, condemn it because at the end of the day it will not judge you nor condemn you to an eternity of damnation.
;)
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole word could not contain the books that would be written.
John 21:25

So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matthew 18:3-4

A child couldn't do exhaustive chuch"history" research but by faith gave Jesus a few loaves and fish believing He could do miraculous things with it.

Paul, in his vast learning was accused of being "mad" (crazy) by rulers but all he claimed to know after his conversion was "Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead". Nothing more mattered to him.

We make it so hard to believe.
It's not hard unless our hearts are.
 

DriveInDriveOut

Inordinately Right
Says the one person who only posts in this thread to tell me I am wrong then doesn't elaborate further. I guess when you've been beat in a debate tearing down your opponent on a personal level is all you have left.
You haven't provided any facts. You've said there is no gene for homosexuality. That doesn't prove anything except your lack of understanding of genetics.
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
Says the one person who only posts in this thread to tell me I am wrong then doesn't elaborate further. I guess when you've been beat in a debate tearing down your opponent on a personal level is all you have left.

Erm, you started this thread, so of course my posts within it are in response to you.

I and others have repeatedly pointed out why you are wrong, on Kim Davis as Rosa Parks (intellectually dishonest, cherry-picking both the Constitution and the Bible, etc.), on homosexuality as mental-illness (no basis in fact, simply your opinion, etc.), but you steamroll right on and double-down on these ridiculous ideas.

This isn't a debate - you hold your opinions, I hold mine. Neither one of us is going to change the others mind.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
ImageUploadedByBrownCafe1441641352.987927.jpg
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
I am hardly a Biblical scholar, but if one spends even a few minutes doing the most basic sort of research, it becomes quite clear that the different translations of the Bible can assign much different meanings to the same words and phrases. A very legitimate argument can be made that the New Testament phrases that purport to condemn homosexuality are, in fact, condemning the sins of pederasty and temple prostitution instead. The term "homosexual" as we have come to understand it in the modern era does not really have a corresponding word in the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in.
 

10 point

Well-Known Member
I have a question for you 10 point.

If mankind was wiped out, and all written historical evidence of ALL kinds were destroyed with nothing in print remaining, and all structures destroyed, including ALL churches, along with all past religious monuments ( like pyramids, rome, the vatican, etc etc)

And a future people came to earth.

Which would they be able to prove existed previously??

RELIGION or SCIENCE?

TOS.
I'll answer that with an equally paralleled question.

Without destroying anything and yet examining earlier races and groups of people you can see that science wasn't their main focus but in almost every civilization known to man the people earnestly yearned to worship a god or multiple gods.

Why is that?

Because there's a yearning inside most people to know and be known by the creator of the beauty around them. There's many atheists who cry out to a God they don't believe in when they are on the battlefield or on a death bed.
Why is that?

Inside a person's "heart" lies the answer. It is a very personal matter and only you can answer for yourself.
No matter what you do, how far you run, God seeks after you because He desires your fellowship.

Science doesn't trump faith. It broadens it.

Wisdom is not infinite for us because we're always being schooled and the only thing we can't explore with science is where you go when your body is dead.

Science can't answer that and never will.

Only faith remains in that arena and that, my friend, is your answer.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
I happen to believe that one of the greatest gifts we as humans have been given by our Creator is the capacity for reason.

It would then follow that one of the greatest sins we can commit would be to close our minds off to new ideas or ways of thinking.

Another of the greatest gifts we have been given is the capacity to love.

It would follow that another one of the greatest sins we can commit would be to denigrate and marginalize our fellow man.

The Christian Church condemned Gallileo as a heretic because he dared suggest that the Earth rotated about the sun rather than being the center of the universe as the Biblical teachings of the day decreed. Modern Christians have evolved their understanding of the physical universe in light of the advance of scientific knowledge, which is what I feel that a God who gave us the capacity for science would want us to do. Unfortunately, when it comes to issues of human sexuality there are those within the church who seem to want to go backwards rather than forwards in terms of understanding.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
We have mapped the entire human genome and no "gay" gene has been discovered.

That claim is not settled science at all. This idea is still much in flux. It may in the end prove true but at the moment it is not.

How our genes could make us gay or straight


Notice in the word "Christian" it begins with the word Christ. Now at what point of the bible does the word Christ appear? That would be the New Testament. You have taken my choice of words to mean that there was Christianity before the New Testament, when in fact there was not. That was simply my point.

Sorry but your logic doesn't follow with linguistics and etymology as the word Christ is not a name but an adjective and title describing a position. The word translated Christ is the greek Khristos and means anointed. In the hebrew, the same word is mashiah which is the english word messiah and also means anointed. Both King David and the Persian Cyrus the Great in the OT is called mashiah (messiah/Christ) as they were considered anointed of god. David for his Kingship and Cyrus for freeing the jews from Babylon and ensuring their return to their old lands in Judah as per the texts of Ezra-Nehemiah.

If anything, Christianity by name has taken an adjective or title and used that term to build a religious idea around. Savior personas were by no means unique to jewish thought as these anointed individuals were all but common around the entire Mediterranean and Middle East region and pre-dating Jesus up to 2k years before. During the time of Jesus in hellenized cultures, savior deities were all over the place and jewish culture was not isolated nor immune to this influence. Even among jews themselves there were almost countless jews over the years who claimed messiahship. Even today there are still occasions when someone will claim to be the jewish messiah even building a devoted following.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
Its called tough love. I would argue you lack true compassion by trying to tell them they are normal as this doesn't begin to address their real issues.

I don't give two schittz whether they are "normal" or not, because it is not the function of a government employee or elected official to only provide services to those people who she thinks are "normal." Which is really what this debate is all about. I don't care what Kim Davis thinks. She is perfectly entitled to her opinion and her own interpretation of Christianity. What she is not entitled to do as a civil servant is to arbitrarily deny services to a segment of the taxpaying public whom she deems as undeserving of said services. That's not her call to make.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
That claim is not settled science at all. This idea is still much in flux. It may in the end prove true but at the moment it is not.

How our genes could make us gay or straight




Sorry but your logic doesn't follow with linguistics and etymology as the word Christ is not a name but an adjective and title describing a position. The word translated Christ is the greek Khristos and means anointed. In the hebrew, the same word is mashiah which is the english word messiah and also means anointed. Both King David and the Persian Cyrus the Great in the OT is called mashiah (messiah/Christ) as they were considered anointed of god. David for his Kingship and Cyrus for freeing the jews from Babylon and ensuring their return to their old lands in Judah as per the texts of Ezra-Nehemiah.

If anything, Christianity by name has taken an adjective or title and used that term to build a religious idea around. Savior personas were by no means unique to jewish thought as these anointed individuals were all but common around the entire Mediterranean and Middle East region and pre-dating Jesus up to 2k years before. During the time of Jesus in hellenized cultures, savior deities were all over the place and jewish culture was not isolated nor immune to this influence. Even among jews themselves there were almost countless jews over the years who claimed messiahship. Even today there are still occasions when someone will claim to be the jewish messiah even building a devoted following.
You are missing the point and also attempting to show an error that wasn't even made. Everyone knows that the word Christ, when discussing Christianity, is Jesus Christ. The point was to show the error in thinking that Christianity existed before Jesus did his thing. Allot of people make the mistake of pointing to the ways of Old Testament (Pre Christian) times to bash Christianity. There were major changes in the religion that would later become Christianity as a result of Christ's dying for our sins. That's why we are no longer expected to stone people such as before Christ came to be. Not to mention all of the religious laws and practices that were purged or modified from converts from other religions.

People ignorantly bash Christianity at will and verbally chastise them for not wanting to marry homosexuals. But give Islam a pass even as it's supporters can be seen throwing homosexuals off buildings on the internet.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
You are missing the point and also attempting to show an error that wasn't even made. Everyone knows that the word Christ, when discussing Christianity, is Jesus Christ. The point was to show the error in thinking that Christianity existed before Jesus did his thing. Allot of people make the mistake of pointing to the ways of Old Testament (Pre Christian) times to bash Christianity. There were major changes in the religion that would later become Christianity as a result of Christ's dying for our sins. That's why we are no longer expected to stone people such as before Christ came to be. Not to mention all of the religious laws and practices that were purged or modified from converts from other religions.

People ignorantly bash Christianity at will and verbally chastise them for not wanting to marry homosexuals. But give Islam a pass even as it's supporters can be seen throwing homosexuals off buildings on the internet.

No, I understood exactly what he was saying and implying. I was just pointing out the actual historical use of the word as opposed to what it has become.

As to the great changes that took place OT to NT, doesn't that itself raise serious question as to the all knowing, unchanging god that everyone claims is running the show?

The fact is that god even changed several times in the OT in name and his actions to man. The early bible god of the Patriarch period was close to man, talked directly with man, man could know his name and call upon him. God even had a meal with Abraham and Sarah and told her she would have a child which became Isaac. Yet come Moses he had changed, he was isolated from the people and none could even know his name nor call upon him.

This in itself raises the claim that god is unchanging when the bible itself proves the opposite. Or does this reflect source and authorship of the text in different people/different culture crafting god to meet the new conditions?
 

BrownArmy

Well-Known Member
Biology and sexual orientation...

"Biological theories for explaining the causes of sexual orientation are more popular, and biological factors may involve a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. These factors, which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual orientation, include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure."

The jury is still out, obviously.

This is how science works - we figure out what we don't know, piece by piece, until we can say with a measure of certainty that we're on the right track.

Then we go down that track, and we refine and refine, until we actually have something.

We're in the middle of this exploration vis-a-vis human sexuality.

------------------------------------

As far as gays and lesbians marrying, this is not a religious issue, IMO.

What Kim Davis was denying these homosexual couples was the equivalent of a driver's license, or a real estate license, or a permit to tear down and rebuild your porch.

Basically, a notation in the county books for a particular situation - in this case, the joining of two people for the purposes of financial and legal matters - a civil matter.

(We could have a discussion about the validity of the 'state' in these matters one way or another, but that's not what I'm talking about).

County clerks that issue marriage licenses are not performing a religious function, they're performing a civil function.

Kim Davis isn't in the business of joining two people under 'God', she's in the business of joining two people under the 'state'.

A strange battle to choose, and she seems like a strange person to pick this particular battle.

Now, Kentucky could have side-stepped this entire drama by adopting a stance similar to North Carolina, who made legal changes in their laws to ensure that anyone with a religious objection to issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples could defer - another clerk could issue the marriage license and go home feeling right with themselves and their God, and the couple could walk away with a marriage license.

That kind of 'workaround' has questionable long-term stability, but that's another conversation.

Instead, the Governor of Kentucky won't deal with the situation, Kim Davis sits in jail, and marriage licenses are being issued to same-sex couples under some cloud of potential non-validity.

Total mess, for no good reason.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
No, I understood exactly what he was saying and implying. I was just pointing out the actual historical use of the word as opposed to what it has become.

As to the great changes that took place OT to NT, doesn't that itself raise serious question as to the all knowing, unchanging god that everyone claims is running the show?

The fact is that god even changed several times in the OT in name and his actions to man. The early bible god of the Patriarch period was close to man, talked directly with man, man could know his name and call upon him. God even had a meal with Abraham and Sarah and told her she would have a child which became Isaac. Yet come Moses he had changed, he was isolated from the people and none could even know his name nor call upon him.

This in itself raises the claim that god is unchanging when the bible itself proves the opposite. Or does this reflect source and authorship of the text in different people/different culture crafting god to meet the new conditions?
God, and his commands, changed as man changed. The first change was when Adam and Eve disobeyed. Another major change was when Jesus died so we could all be forgiven of our sins. There is no contradictions with the Scriptures and God's commands.
 
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