MIP, Pension etc

Discussion in 'UPS Partners' started by New Sup, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. New Sup

    New Sup Guest

    Seems like this year will be the last year for MIP & traditional pensions for supervisors & managers......what is saved will be used to help fund UPS getting out of the 6 billion dollars Central States hole....The pension & Mip will be replaced by a bigger 401k match and be portable.......Divion Managers & above will have enhanced compensations & their options price point will be rolled back to what it was when they first entered full time management.......Im not sure what that means but it sure sounds pretty good......I dont think that UPS wants any lower level management around for very long....not with so many of the specialists & oms's .......its either going to be up or out for management.....maybe there will be specific time frames attached to each level.....who knows ?....I have much to consider
  2. There isn't much chance of moving up, that's for sure. There is such a large impacted plug of feces blocking the pipeline between grade 18 and 22 that it will never clear out. The Corporate Office needs a good dose of Fiber Con. These people aren't going ANYWHERE unless they're booted out because they have no real skills. It's almost impossible to fill entry level management jobs because the compensation sucks. Who wants all their savings tied up in a stock that doesn't move? There are still a lot of fat cats around who hit it big at IPO time, but nobody who went into management in the last 10 years is making any money. It's almost like a caste system now. Fat cats and skinny cats. Jim Casey must be spinning in his grave.
  3. hangin455

    hangin455 Member

    Bingo Froggy!
    And all these 18's complain that they can't get any talented sup's. No wonder the way things are now...
  4. SimpleUPSer

    SimpleUPSer Member

    Some pretty bold statements. I do not doubt that pensions for new management will most likely go away at some point. The retirement health benefits did a year or two ago for new management hires I heard. This is actually the norm now in big business, largely due to the newer generation of worker typically does not staying long enough to collect a pension anyway, so why have it.

    The $$ spent for the CS Pension Fund was cash UPS had sitting around anyway, so I am unsure of how that will directly impact compensation or the changes. Many of the changes were probably in the works already.

    I cannot forsee options being rolled back to when division management entered FT management. Two reasons for this, the first is that it would be very costly, the second is that it goes against the company's current initiative to actually reduce that layer of management - more would stick around to the increased compensation possibility.

    My thoughts. Comments welcome.
  5. NO ONE

    NO ONE New Member

    2008 half month gone , mip to 401-K (In some form %) gone, pension gone ......ME GONE
    Talented sups anyone that passed the test (for them) what a joke!!!!
  6. Come what may, I still think I make pretty good money, but I have been around for a while. As I feel my compensation is being trimmed or different parts of it become less attractive, I make adjustments. When my MIP was reduced and I only received 1/2 of it, I stopped working the 12-14 hour days. Now I work 9 (12 at peak). When the discounted stock purchase plan began to require holding stock for 2 years, I stopped participating. Last month, I did my most radical thing to date. After my ownership incentive for MIP was set, I sold 4/5 of my UPS stock because: 1. The stock has been flat for 5 years and I have missed out on 5 years that that money could have grown substancially in the rest of the market. 2. I am no longer willing to accept the risk of 1/2 of my net worth being tied up in a single investment. 3. The ownership incentive is nice but again I only get 1/2 of it, if I leave UPS, I don't get my money.
    I have been thinking of doing #3 for a few years but was never able to pull the trigger. I was a little worried about the meeting with my District Manager to receive my stock this year, but he didn't know I had sold and thanked me for maintaining my ownership level.
    If the pension is eliminated, I will adjust again. I figure it frees me from having to stick around for another 14 years to earn a full pension. I had always thought I would work my whole life at UPS and retire with a nice pension. I don't think so anymore. But I'm actually glad, because it has caused me to come up with a better plan for my life.
  7. HazMatMan

    HazMatMan New Member

    Seems like both management AND union workers are getting it stuck right up our a$$es.. Somewhere somebody or somebodies is/are making a whole bunch of money..
  8. SimpleUPSer

    SimpleUPSer Member

    I often hear many management people get upset that there is no opportunity for advancement, the compensation sucks and the hours are terrible.

    I agree that opportunity for advancement has declined due to the management reduction initiatives, integrations and acquisitions as well as the economy. This is cyclical, and every organization goes through it. That being stated, there is still opprotunity for advancement. Use tuition reimbursement, that is $5250/year of additional compensation you can get, and you will get education and/or skills that will make you more desirable for promotion at UPS or more marketable somewhere else if that is your choice. One other reason for lack of advancement is rotations or experience in other functions. This makes a person more marketable. I fully understand that this is not always the individual management person's choice, but often they do bear some of that responsibility.

    We all need to take some responsibility for controlling our hours. Whether it is better developing our planning and organizing skills or simply telling the boss that you need to work less hours. If they don't know, nothing will get addressed.

    Our compensation, when you factor in everything, may not be as bad as you think. I'm not saying that you cannot make more money elsewhere, there are certainly jobs that may offer more compensation. Just consider your options carefully.

    I'm not trying to say that everything is great at UPS. There are days when I want to walk out the door and never look back as well, but many of the issues we have at UPS are at other companies as well.

    I read something recently that most people do not quit their company, they quit their boss. This may also be a factor in how we "feel" about work every day.
  9. JonFrum

    JonFrum Guest

    UPS has cash sitting around, but not $6.1 billion worth! They're withdrawing from the most expensive fund to withdraw from, at the most expensive time. A strange choice. (If they withdrew from the Western Conference Plan, for example, it wouldn't cost them a cent.) Plus they still have to pay for the cost of the Central States UPSers' new pension plan.

    They plan to pay off the debt they owe to the Central States Pension Fund from three sources: their spare cash, newly borrowed money, and the U.S. taxpayers (when they take a big tax deduction.)
  10. j13501

    j13501 Member

    That's true, someone is making (or rather saving) alot of money. It's the customer. It was going to happen someday. Our competition has grown large enough that the customer has multiple choices for carriers. And they now have the ability to tell us to cut our rates (through discounting) or risk losing them to the competition. It's the "coke vs. pepsi" issue in small package delivery. Our best chance to grow and prosper is to continue to give great service to our customers and at the same time try to cut costs to retain profit margins.
    We can't stop it, because it's capitalism at work.
  11. I don't think you have to worry about any District Manager giving you a hard time about selling. It's a whole new rodeo since the company went public. If the SEC got a whiff of a systematic effort by the company to force employees to buy and hold the stock it wouldn't be pretty for the company. This would clearly be considered stock price manipulation.
  12. trickpony1

    trickpony1 Well-Known Member

    I don't think the company forces us to buy but I would question whether we are "forced" to hold our shares.
    It seems I remember someone saying that if stock is bought through the payroll deduction program, it can't be sold for two years. I could be wrong but I also think management can't sell their MIP award for a period of time.
    Stock price manipulation? draw your own conclusion.

    OOPS! did I let the cat out of the bag? Will I be edited? Will I disappear never to be seen again?

    Stay tuned..........
  13. pretzel_man

    pretzel_man Well-Known Member

    Boiled, I think you're missing a big point.

    In the late seventies, UPS went through a major growth period. Its when we expanded to the entire contintinental US. The people hired at that time are nearing retirement right now.

    I heard that very high percent of district managers will be retiring in the next 5 years. This opens up slots for 22's, 18's, etc.

    Your other point on no stock growth is valid. I think this is our biggest problem. It used to be that you worked hard all year, and at least when you saw the stock grow, you knew why you worked so hard.

    We need to get the stock to grow. The company needs to grow.

    The management committee tried to tie incentive to areas that spark growth... I guess we'll see if that works.

    I hope it does, because we're not going back.

  14. P-Man -

    You remind me a lot of myself and how I used to sound, always taking the company side, somewhat blindly or because I was in denial; or that I did not want to believe everything I was seeing was really happening. No offense, I think you're optimistic and trying hard to believe the company has your best interest in mind, but I think the sad truth is that this is not the case.

    You cannot just sugar coat everything. The company IS screwing its low to mid management people thru compensation, MIP, advancement opportunities, pension and benefits. There is no doubt about that, and sometimes there simply is no "brighter side".

    The "retiring baby-boomer" phenomenon is not exclusively a UPS thing. The problem is, UPS's long term management plan is not to fill these using a 1:1 ratio, and therefore depends on attrition to gradually make this reduction in the management ranks. The recent buyout offers, for example, are indicative of the company's plan to reduce grade 18 and above positions across the board moving forward.

    And a high % of district managers retiring over the next 5 years means what to the FT sup or manager busting his ass? Let's see, 55 districts and say 80% of the current district mgrs retire in next 5 years...Wow, 45 whopping openings across the entire company over the next 5 years (9 per year)..Please.

    J13501 pretty much nailed it on the head though. Yes, it is true that district managers and above are getting disproportionate increases in compensation compared to those below them, but the bottom line is that the biggest driver of UPS's cost cutting is the competition. The customer sets the price, we adjust to remain competitive, and everyone shares the pain. For so long it was, "If you dont like us, use the competition..Oh that's right, there is none". Now that is no longer the case, and the package delivery business has become a mere commodity. Good for the customer, bad for the shareholders and employees.

    The company will never be what it once was. Not entirely anybody's fault, really. It's just the way the industry has evolved. It's economics. Changing times, fierce competition, less profit (and the fact that it's now spread more unequally than ever especially sucks).

    It's sad to say, but the centennial celebration was more of a funeral as far as I'm concerned. That's why I quit about a week before the anniversary after almost 10 years in management. Havent looked back once. I was afraid to make the leap but I did and it was the best decision I've made in my life. I have a life now, making almost twice as much money working in a different industry and not getting treated like crap. Amazing concept. And for those who insist UPS is still "really good pay", I challenge you to go look. Unless you've been doing nothing but slanging packages all your life and your only options are FDX or DHL, you might be right. But if you've got a college degree or staff function experience, chances are you can get paid a lot better elsewhere. Do the homework. I did, and was pretty surprised.

    Now I'm just waiting for the miserable stock to break 75 again so I can dump it without too much pain.
  15. hangin455

    hangin455 Member

    Stock Price is $75.14 - time to hit the sell button. Glad you got out with your sanity and your health.....
  16. pretzel_man

    pretzel_man Well-Known Member


    I'm not sure what to say other than what I post is from my heart. I'm certainly not brainwashed and don't think things are perfect. However, I try to think through my position and made decisions from facts....

    Lets look at this a little and see where the middle level managers are being screwed (presumably in favor of higher level management).

    Raises - Raises for everyone up to at least district managers comes from a raise pool. The calculations are the same for everyone. I don't know what happens beyond district manager, but at least up to that level the average is 3.5%. Same for the rest of us.

    MIP - This is the same for everyone. It maxes out at 2 units and while those at a higher level make more, so their dollar amount is higher, its still 2 units times the new factors.

    Stock Options - Grade 18 and above get these at greater %'s the higher you go. Since the stock hasn't grown, the value of the options is much, much smaller than it used to be.

    LTIP - Grade 20 and above get this at a higher % the higher you go. Its tied to indices that are supposed to be indicators for stock growth. First year it paid well. Second year I hear is much less.

    Stock hasn't grown for any of the groups. You could argue that the higher levels that have more stock and stock options are actually impacted greater by the non-growth. I know that its really hurt me...

    My point is that the real issue here is the lack to stock growth. If the stock grew at 10% a year, it would be almost double what it is today. Think about that.

    There would be less complaining and concerns if the stock would grow. I saw that in my first 7 years in management. People that are in their first 7 management years have not experienced that.

    As far as district managers go, there's a whole lot more than 55. There's SCS, Corporate, etc. I think there are about 350.

    I wouldn't be discounting the future opportunites for promotion. The question is whether we will see the growth that will provide the rewards of those positions.

  17. Monkey Butt

    Monkey Butt Dark Prince of Double Standards Staff Member

    Its almost two years hence and some things said still ring true (growth as put forth by P-man) and some things perhaps, in retrospect, a little off.
    Too bad we don't have a just for Management Forum but I think UPSSALESGUY is busy changing diapers anyway. :wink2:
  18. pretzel_man

    pretzel_man Well-Known Member

    I think nearly all of what I wrote on this before Hoax revived this thread is still true...

    Growth is still the major issue in my mind. When I wrote this at the end of 2007, I was wondering if we were going to grow at 2%, 4%, 8%, etc. I was concerned about FedEx (and DHL) growth compared to ours.

    Maybe foolishly, I never envisioned UPS and the financial world going backward. In December 2007, I think UPS stock was $72 Two 10% growth years would have put us close to $90 this year, instead of $55. That's a $35 difference.

    That growth difference I believe is the root of our problems. Imagine how all management would feel if stock were $35 higher than it is....

    Of course, the point of the post was that lower management was not being taken advantage of by upper management. I still believe that.

    Take my $35 stock difference example above. I know that its simplified and not fully logical, but..... The negative growth in UPS stock impacted upper management tremendously. MIP, Options, LTIP are all hugely less than they would have been.

    UPS today is not the financial engine it was when I started. Back then, a supervisor could count on a fantastic retirement. But back then, a 20 year division manager would be very, very well off. That is not true for those upper management employees today either.

    We are all impacted by growth. We need our packages back.

  19. Just Numbers

    Just Numbers Retired

    Growth is a curious word and can not be interpreted in the same light as it was 30 yrs ago. The growth went to other countries with the manufacturing jobs. There is no "real" growth. How many buildings we used to make pick-ups at are now vacant? Let's forget about the economy right now. The real growth and the only growth we can expect is riding around in Fedex trucks. After all both management and hourly need to realize that the pkgs they are hauling is not volume from the post office. It is volume that came from UPS. We used to have an ATTITUDE that every pkg should be delivered out of a brown truck! That is what is missing from the UPS culture today! So what are you going to do about it?
  20. Looking back, fortunately, I sold a lot of UPS stock at almost the exact top for that time. Unfortuately, I plowed most of it back into other equities and am certainly no better off.
    But, one thing to give some serious consideration to: I think it would be fair to say that the management at GM had similar feelings and programs with their stock as we do with our UPS stock. I am sure that most of them had disproportionate amount of their net worth tied up in their stock and were very confident that it would serve them better than the overall market. I am sure they believed their company was too big to fail. But as it turns out, everything they had invested in their company stock is worth exactly nothing today. You have to feel for them. Don't believe that anthing on this earth is a sure thing.